ATI Killing Nvidia: Nvidia say Q4 of fiscal 2009 expected to decline 40 to 50 percent

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Silus

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lol nvidia crusaders are here :) both ati and economy is killing nvidia ati forces nvidia to lower prices economy is in bad shape go figure

Yes, because "economy" is not hurting ATI (AMD)...:rolleyes: Do you even understand what you're saying ? Do you read the news ?

All companies are hurting, because people like you and me, which they aim to get attention with their new products, won't buy enough of them, to compensate for their R&D money spent. That results in layoffs and tech not evolving as much as it did before, because companies simply do not have money for R&D and we'll get more and more refreshes or simply longer time periods between new products.
 

DeadSkull

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There's nothing wrong with the news, I think its normal we see such statistic all the time, sometimes one goes up and the other drop a little, it changes here and there from time to time

But anyway, it doesn't show that ATi is killing nVidia. It still doesn't show ATi taking a huge chunk of the market away from nVidia to the point that their market share is more than nVidia.

One when we see ATi having the majority share, then that will tell us something

I don't think Ati yet managed to capture 40% of the market share, but as for sales I'm pretty sure Ati outsold nvidia in 2008.
 

BladeVenom

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Semiconductor companies have predicted large drops in sales as the market for computers and other consumer electronics sours amid weaker discretionary spending reflected in this year's poor Christmas selling season.

Still, questions remain as to what extent Nvidia's steep drop could reflect market-share loss in graphics to AMD.

"The reasons won't be known until we are able to collect their calendar Q4 shipment data," said Jon Peddie, president of Jon Peddie Research, which tracks the field.

"At first blush it would appear that Nvidia's shipments have taken a bigger hit than the PC industry in total. However, we're just going to have to wait," he said.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200901131240DOWJONESDJONLINE000538_FORTUNE5.htm

So wait and see.
 

eric66

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Yes, because "economy" is not hurting ATI (AMD)...:rolleyes: Do you even understand what you're saying ? Do you read the news ?

All companies are hurting, because people like you and me, which they aim to get attention with their new products, won't buy enough of them, to compensate for their R&D money spent. That results in layoffs and tech not evolving as much as it did before, because companies simply do not have money for R&D and we'll get more and more refreshes or simply longer time periods between new products.
calm down nvidia defender :D why bringing amd ? i already said both ati and economy you ignore the ati fact cause of your nvidia love nvidia had to lower gtx 280 and 260 prices by how much ? and because of whom ?
 

bangmal

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nvidia is screwed. Despite the demand for chips are falling, but the game consoles are still selling strong, Wii and Xbox 360 are enough to keep ATI afloat, what has nvidia got? ps3 and psyshits?:D
 

Silus

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calm down nvidia defender :D why bringing amd ? i already said both ati and economy you ignore the ati fact cause of your nvidia love nvidia had to lower gtx 280 and 260 prices by how much ? and because of whom ?

Calm down fanATIc and read what I wrote. We are talking about the global recession which is affecting ALL companies, not just NVIDIA. Kudos to ATI/AMD for lowering their graphics cards prices, but they didn't do it due to their goodwill, especially when AMD needed the money the most, even more so in this time of crisis. They did it because they were losing market share to NVIDIA for almost two years and needed to get some back.
 

Kowan

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Yes, because "economy" is not hurting ATI (AMD)...:rolleyes: Do you even understand what you're saying ? Do you read the news ?

All companies are hurting, because people like you and me, which they aim to get attention with their new products, won't buy enough of them, to compensate for their R&D money spent. That results in layoffs and tech not evolving as much as it did before, because companies simply do not have money for R&D and we'll get more and more refreshes or simply longer time periods between new products.
Very good point about what this boon for card buyers could mean in the long run.
 

trinibwoy

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Yep that's why whoever has enough resources to push through this recession and continue spending on R&D will come out better off during the recovery.
 

eric66

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haha you were banned because of your nvidia love once i think its gonna happen again 'Kudos to ATI/AMD for lowering their graphics cards prices, but they didn't do it due to their goodwill, especially when AMD needed the money the most, even more so in this time of crisis. They did it because they were losing market share to NVIDIA for almost two years and needed to get some back.' so what what it has to do with this thread you are attacking amd without reason i didn't say that amd lowered there prices because of there love for us of course they did it in order to get ms back but it also forced nvidia to slash prices of there cards plus they looked bad cause of charging that much money when ati introduced all there models below 300 dolar they made 9800gtx and old gtx 260 look like crap and gtx 280 overpriced which lead to enormous price cut you know how much and new models to appear (with lower prices) and old models eol and of course economic crisis hit all companies from intel to amd simply everyone that was another major fact
 

Silus

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Yep that's why whoever has enough resources to push through this recession and continue spending on R&D will come out better off during the recovery.

We are still waiting for AMD and NVIDIA's results, but at this point, only Intel should have no major problems in keeping their process unchanged. Although, with no competition, I doubt they'll release anything "new" in 2009.
 

Silus

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haha you were banned because of your nvidia love once i think its gonna happen again 'Kudos to ATI/AMD for lowering their graphics cards prices, but they didn't do it due to their goodwill, especially when AMD needed the money the most, even more so in this time of crisis. They did it because they were losing market share to NVIDIA for almost two years and needed to get some back.' so what what it has to do with this thread you are attacking amd without reason i didn't say that amd lowered there prices because of there love for us of course they did it in order to get ms back but it also forced nvidia to slash prices of there cards plus they looked bad cause of charging that much money when ati introduced all there models below 300 dolar they made 9800gtx and old gtx 260 look like crap and gtx 280 overpriced which lead to enormous price cut you know how much and new models to appear (with lower prices) and old models eol and of course economic crisis hit all companies from intel to amd simply everyone that was another major fact

I was banned because I called someone an "idiot", but since I'm through letting myself be caught with flame baits (as that was the case), that won't be a problem anymore.

I'm not attacking AMD, even though you obviously see it that way, because that's just how blind fans react. If I'm not with you, I must be against you...but that's your problem.
Anyway, in my first response to you, I merely pointed out the fact that ATI is not killing anyone, because the global recession is hitting them aswell. Lowering their graphics prices, in an attempt to regain market share actually seems to have succeeded in the short term, but it had a very poor timing, because with this recession, they're not getting as much from their regained market share, as they would like. And remember that this regained market share is on the GPU market only. AMD needs much more than that to survive. Their biggest division, is still the CPU division, which is being hammered by Intel, that has enough resources, to sail out of this recession, Given the harsh financial situation of AMD, R&D money for their divisions (CPU and GPU), will just get lower and lower and they won't be able to get money back, much less if they keep reducing prices and considering their recently announced layoffs, this is basically confirmed.
 

trinibwoy

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We are still waiting for AMD and NVIDIA's results, but at this point, only Intel should have no major problems in keeping their process unchanged. Although, with no competition, I doubt they'll release anything "new" in 2009.

At the end of Q3 2008, the balance sheets looked like this:

Nvidia:

Cash - 1.3B
Short-term Liabilities - 1B
Long-term Liabilities - 150M

AMD

Cash - 1.3B
Short-term Liabilities - 2.3B
Long-term Liabilities - 4.5B

So it would appear that Nvidia has a lot more headroom to continue investing in R&D. But we'll have to see how AMD's divestiture of the fabs impacts their balance sheet. It still doesn't look good for them in the short-term though. Cutting prices and regaining market share is great and all but that won't necessarily pull them out of the hole. They're killing ASPs in order to increase sales so it's gonna be a wash revenue wise.
 

Varmint

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All semiconductor companies are taking it on the chin. My company's 2008 fiscal year profit is down 95%, in the semi capital equipment business. The percentages down are high cause 2007 was a huge year.
 

TekRok

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why would a meth head gamble in vegas when he would rather spend money on meth?
 

HighTest

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nvidia is screwed. Despite the demand for chips are falling, but the game consoles are still selling strong, Wii and Xbox 360 are enough to keep ATI afloat, what has nvidia got? ps3 and psyshits?:D

I think you have hit the market that will be what carries both vendors forward for a while, however don't count nVIDIA out yet.

While ATI is doing very well here in terms of the Wii for example, yet the graphics are nothing to jump around about. Xbox 360 does use ATI as well but does not produce the hardware for the Xbox 360. It's ATI's Xenos design, but Microsoft licensed the design for manufacture as well and dictates the fabs, that's why it's a Microsoft logo on the chip and not an ATI one as shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R500gpu.jpg.

As for nVIDIA lets start with the Xbox 360. nVIDIA actually receives licensing for their previous Xbox technology so that Microsoft can provide the ability to be backwards compatible with select Xbox titles. So there is some residual income here for nVIDIA even though they don't have to produce anything. As for the PS3, Sony PS3 uses the RSX graphics design from nVIDIA but also as a design/license agreement only. The reason is that the graphics engine is simply included as one of the cells on the cell processor design. These are cell processors are entirely fabbed by Sony, so no materials are actually produced by nVIDIA for the inclusion on the PS3.

So outside of the Wii console, neither graphics manufacturer is actually fabing chips for ongoing sales.

Depending on their licensing agreements, unless they receive residual incomes for the design (Xbox 360 and the nVIDIA license) they might not be getting additional revenues from the game console market (outside of consulting work for game development in regards to their chipsets). The only exception would be the Wii and that is outselling everything hands down as shown with the positive sales growth for Amazon this last Christmas season and entirely due to the Wii. Everyone else had negative sales growth (and everyone else ment more than just the game console market as well).

Again, if the license agreements include residual income for each new console produced, then you'll see these helping to hold up the bottom line for each company. On the other hand, if the license purchase was a one time purchase for a large sum, then future sales will not help in the slightest. Would be ironic for example if one were to purchase a PS3 in two years and the GPU designer where no longer in business. However, there have been enconomic downturns before in the computer market and ATI and nVIDIA have managed to adapt and survive, I wouldn't count either out. As for the CGPU market, perhaps nVIDIA would partner/license with a CPU a maker other than AMD to help compete in that market.

As for the "profitability" of the console market, there is currently only a single winner.

Nintendo FTW!!! The reason is, they found a winning combination of interactivity rather than graphics supremacy to market their console. This allowed them to have almost immediate profit from each console sold. The hardware actually costs less to produce than the retail list price (estimated at approx $150 including the Wii remote and nunchuck.)

Sony for example wanted a 10 year design out of the PS3 and each produced unit still costs much more than the retail price (originally about $850 to $805 per device depending on model. This contributed to about $1.9 billion in operating losses for the games devision in fiscal year 2007. This may also have been the reason for the resignation of the president of that devision.) Recent die shrinks and number of component reductions have dropped this significantly but still higher than retail at about $400 per console depending on model.

Microsoft apparently had a production cost of $715 but trimmed that by 40% in a single year. Each year had a reduction in the production costs so that now each console is about $75.00 less than the retail cost. So now sales are havinge a postitive impact on the revenue, positive net gain versus loss posted just the previous year.

Both Microsoft and Sony are working extremely hard to market their devices as more than just game consoles. However, Sony does have a lead here as the ability to play Blu-Ray (and as a 2.0 compliant player, it's the best player on the market at this time and is about the same cost as many stand alone Blu-Ray players). Xbox 360 does work as a great media extender but either requires the Xbox Live subscription along with a Netflix account or a PC with the Media Center running. Sony's also working hard on these "broadband" vidoe experiences too, so depending on their success, the PS3 may continue to reign supreme for the "home theater and game console combination". Interesingly, Nintendo is experimenting with Wii "TV" type technology in Japan and may move this here depending on success. However this would only be EDTV at 480P Widescreen resolution. But it's interesting that the technology possibilities exist. Plus majority of home owners with HDTV's still only have DVD players, so the Wii service would be comparible and require a much less expensive console. Some Wii owners already experience this type of tech using the Opera internet based browser you can add and using Youtube or other flash based video services. Google this if you want more details. Several PC DVR software work fine with the Wii by using a flash webpage the Wii can be pointed to.

:D Sorry to go way off topic, but I'm just pointing out that depending on the license agreements, the console market may not be helping either vendor outside of the Wii and it's ATI produced chips.

ATI's and nVIDIA's survival will likely have more to do with other markets and Game consoles are just a silver lining. Unless the licensing is much more lucrative than I'm aware of. Then game consoles could be the saving grace for each.
 

MocciBoo

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I think you have hit the market that will be what carries both vendors forward for a while, however don't count nVIDIA out yet.

While ATI is doing very well here in terms of the Wii for example, yet the graphics are nothing to jump around about.

Well that just goes to show you that it's all about the games, and not necessarily the
graphics. It is crazy how the Wii is doing, though, I mean selling 1.7 million units
in one week. I think the wii already has broken some major sales records in the console
market. Perhaps the Wii is ATi / Amd's bread and butter at this point.

http://www.blasteroids.com/news/news_item.cfm/16399
 

MocciBoo

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Oh, btw at 500M loss a quarter, AMD will file for bankruptcy in Q4 of next year. Thus why they are trimming jobs. Good luck on trying to compete for the next gen graphics with a slashed research budget.

You know you've gone overboard with being a fanboy when you talk trash in regards to companies going under and people losing jobs.


I agree with ts28, vengence bragging about people losing jobs is a clear sign of a fan boy
mentality that we want to avoid here. Remember that the subject of this thread is clearly
in regards to Nvidia's 50% fiscal 09 decline, taken directly from the nvidia's web site. This report is
from Nvidia themselves. I am not happy about this, but it is what it is. Let's seriously stay
away from bragging about how a certain company is losing jobs. Let's remember that
those aren't just jobs, those are people with families and children to feed. Don't forget
that we are all people here and we are inevitably and irrevocably connected.
 

MrWizard6600

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nvidia is screwed. Despite the demand for chips are falling, but the game consoles are still selling strong, Wii and Xbox 360 are enough to keep ATI afloat, what has nvidia got? ps3 and psyshits?:D

What hightest said in response is entirely correct, aside from a few minor details.

Both the Xbox 360 and the PS3 do have 2 hunks of silicon. The Xenos is an IBM (remember them? Remember 2001? ... :S) triple core which is of the Power-6 architecture. There is a GPU on the Xbox 360 known as the R500, and its an R600 adapted for IBM's and its respective bus, it is unified.

The PS3s "cell" is an 8ALU (1 disabled for yield) Reduced Instruction Set Chip (RISC) (which simply means it doesnt support everything X86-64 supports, I dont know how extensive its function set is and thats obviously directly relevant to just how awesome a chip it is). These 8 ALUs can push pixels but they dont because they're horribly inefficient at doing so, as such sony contracted Nvidia to modify a G70 (7800 family) to fit in the system.

All of that said, we simply dont know the details of those contracts. Did ATI or Nvidia take a large single payment for their respective designs or on a royalty system? We will never know. In the Xbox 360s case, what is this heat "Red Ring Of Death (RROD)" problem? I've googled this extensively and all I can get is "General Hardware Failure". We wont ever know exactly what part is failing but I wouldnt be surprised if its the R500. Does that Impact ATIs profits from its (imho pretty awesome) design?
-- this is a little off topic but it ties in well to the Xbox360 vs PS3 argument. The Xbox360 does have more visual compute power, and always will. Those FPS issues you see on the PS3 but not on the 360 are squarely because its a fight between the G70 and the R500.
 

MocciBoo

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Yah, it's be really nice to know how much ati makes off royalties with the wii...I think it was said that
they sold around 35 million units this christmas? With those kind of numbers, it just goes to show
you where the real money is. I'm surprised that ATI doesn't just make thier own console...then again
the Nintendo name really carries a lot of weight behind it.
 

anime4u

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Ati is not killing Nvidia. The present day market environment is hurting Nvidia as well as everyone else in the tech sector.
 

MartinX

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nvidia is screwed. Despite the demand for chips are falling, but the game consoles are still selling strong, Wii and Xbox 360 are enough to keep ATI afloat, what has nvidia got? ps3 and psyshits?:D

ATI doesn't make or sell the graphics chips in the Xbox360.
They did the original design under contract to MS, but that design is owned by MS and manufactured by a third party for MS.

There may be some form of ongoing revenue stream there from royalty payments or something, but it will be fractionally as significant as ATi actually selling the chips to MS.
 

vick1000

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Suffice it to say, AMD cut into nVidia's bottom line more last year than in 2007, and will again this year. But "killing" them, not in this thing we call reality.
 

vick1000

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ATI doesn't make or sell the graphics chips in the Xbox360.
They did the original design under contract to MS, but that design is owned by MS and manufactured by a third party for MS.

There may be some form of ongoing revenue stream there from royalty payments or something, but it will be fractionally as significant as ATi actually selling the chips to MS.


AMD does make HD chips for all sorts of set top boxes and HDTVs though.
 

MocciBoo

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Kinda makes you think how profitable ATI would be if they didn't have AMD holding them back...lol.
 

Jeffredo

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Kinda makes you think how profitable ATI would be if they didn't have AMD holding them back...lol.

Probably not at all. Its a price war and no one is making money. But considering they are one company its a moot point. They may have increased their market share, but AMD isn't what you would call healthy. At least Nvidia hasn't been going in the hole every quarter for YEARS. All in all, ATI isn't killing anyone.
 

MocciBoo

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I'm also starting to think that xfx was able to forecast nvidia's poor sales which is the reason why
they are selling ati cards now....I mean 1.5 million gpus....that is a ton of money that nvidia is
going to lose out on this year.
 

{NG}Fidel

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Ati is killing Nvidia? Is this like how AMD was killing Intel?

Nvidia and Intel have one thing in common.
They both compete with AMD.
But that is really all they have in common as far as companies go.
In terms of size/strength INTEL is 10x bigger than either one of those two companies.
AMD and Nvidia actually have the ability to kill each other off.
Right now I dont think either one is really in the final blow postion though.
Lets hope neither one become like that either.
 

vick1000

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I'm also starting to think that xfx was able to forecast nvidia's poor sales which is the reason why
they are selling ati cards now....I mean 1.5 million gpus....that is a ton of money that nvidia is
going to lose out on this year.

That's your problem, you started thinking.
 

kioras

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Only thing that ati truely killed was nvidia's margins, when nvidia had to do a slash and burn on the pricing of their products shortly after the 4850 and 4870 were released, and then again when the 4670 was released
 

MocciBoo

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That's your problem, you started thinking.

it's true though, all those brand names have tons of nvidia stock left...because the
fact of the matter is nvidia cards aren't selling....which is why the major brands aren't ordering as many cards....so it's no surprise that xfx starts
selling ati cards...and it's no surprise that evga wanted to sell ati cards but was turned
down by ati.
 
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