ATI and NVIDIA under investigation!!???

Z28SHAKER

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
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this guy at work today was telling me that ATI and NVIDIA were under investigation, because for some reason they are both considered monopoly's and the prices are way too high for what the company's said they would be upon release.. Has anyone heard anything about this lately? i know the new video cards are crazy expensive, but are they THAT expensive??
 
wtf are you on about do you have any proof to substantiate those claims?
 
if you would read the entire post you would know that someone at work was telling me he saw it on the news, and i was wondering if anyone else heard about it, thanks anyway im not on anything.
 
I heard this too and if its true... the federal government is really retarded. They just let AMD combine with ATi not too long ago and now theyre saying ATi was too monopolistic before the buyout? Retarded...
 
AMD said:
SUNNYVALE, CALIF. -- November 30, 2006 --AMD (NYSE:AMD) has received a subpoena from the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) Antitrust Division in connection with the DOJ’s investigation into potential antitrust violations related to graphics processors and cards. AMD entered the graphics processor business following the company’s acquisition of ATI Technologies, Inc. last month (October 25, 2006). The DOJ has not made any specific allegations against AMD or ATI. AMD intends to cooperate with the investigation.

I think he got his news wrong but there is an investigation. What's being investigated is still unknown however. I think this was discussed a few days ago. Heck both companies even has press releases stating they had
 
wow, i guess this was true then, i wondered why there were no other big graphics processor company's with equal specs the only good ones are Nvidia and ATI !
 
Probably more along the lines of price fixing similar to what the RAM companies were hit with a while ago.
 
I could see how this would be a possibility considering graphics cards have like doubled in price in the last 5 years.

I hope someone (or some people) hang, if this is true.

~Adam
 
It might also have to do with AMD and Nvidia stockpiling GDDR so they can make their cards. Or it could be an extension of an investigation against relating to the companies that produce the RAM.
 
They probably got caught fixing prices. Collusion is illegal no matter what a company's market share is.
 
This is probably someway to save AMD and ATI, they've just been gettin they're bootys kicked as of late... they probably got some insider helping out :eek:
 
yaric said:
This is probably someway to save AMD and ATI, they've just been gettin they're bootys kicked as of late... they probably got some insider helping out :eek:

pfffftttaahahahaaaaa kids :rolleyes:
 
yaric said:
This is probably someway to save AMD and ATI, they've just been gettin they're bootys kicked as of late... they probably got some insider helping out :eek:
naw, the current govt only favors your company if they produce oil.
 
yaric said:
This is probably someway to save AMD and ATI, they've just been gettin they're bootys kicked as of late... they probably got some insider helping out :eek:
Another inq fan im guessing.
 
CleanSlate said:
I could see how this would be a possibility considering graphics cards have like doubled in price in the last 5 years.

I hope someone (or some people) hang, if this is true.

~Adam

the technoligy has been spead up, people are now willing to pay more. if the Market is willing to buy at a higher cost, why not charge more? Im sure they've done the quadractic formula needed to fin the maximum profit. thats what they're charging.

WarriorX said:
Another inq fan im guessing.

QFT
 
CleanSlate said:
I could see how this would be a possibility considering graphics cards have like doubled in price in the last 5 years.

I hope someone (or some people) hang, if this is true.

~Adam

If I recall correctly, the GeForce 2 Ultra had an MSRP upwards of $599. After that, the MSRP ceiling for a high end graphics card was around $399 and it's been crawling up slowly from there.
 
Matrox feeling bitter much, I wonder?

Amusing thing is that ATI and nVidia *combined* only make up 40% of the GPU market - Intel makes up the rest. Yet, Intel has no subpoena. Publicly, anyway.

Perhaps a more likely possibility? Somebody is suing Intel, and subpoenas ATI and nVidia to get details on the graphics market. (Remember, a subpoena isn't an accusation - it's just digging for information on a planned suit...the subpoenaed parties may not have anything to do with the suit at all).
 
BattleMaster said:
If I recall correctly, the GeForce 2 Ultra had an MSRP upwards of $599. After that, the MSRP ceiling for a high end graphics card was around $399 and it's been crawling up slowly from there.

To $650 (someone said they paid this much for their 8800[gtx?])? Sure, at one point they were expensive because of technology. Right now, it seems to me, that the technology has little to do with the expense, this technology is cheaper and easier to make than it ever has been. It seems to me R&D can be made up easily in this market, for each company.

Prices are high because they CAN be high. Both companies knows that each of the other's prices will be similar. Price fixing, perhaps?

~Adam
 
CleanSlate said:
To $650 (someone said they paid this much for their 8800[gtx?])? Sure, at one point they were expensive because of technology. Right now, it seems to me, that the technology has little to do with the expense, this technology is cheaper and easier to make than it ever has been. It seems to me R&M can be made up easily in this market, for each company.

Prices are high because they CAN be high. Both companies knows that each of the other's prices will be similar. Price fixing, perhaps?

~Adam
Trust me it is not random that usually performances(and prices for that matter), are dead even with little advantages on one or the other side also most of the time nvidia, ati, intel, amd have proved this. Lately tho intel/nvidia are pushing it hard, I predict that ati/amd will catch up and even surpass the first mentioned combo and after a while become once again neck in neck prices/performances.It's nothing undercover it's nothing secret or covering up they just want to make money, main goal is money.
 
Do you guys think it has to do with the memory on the video cards and not the actual GPU pricing? heh, this was as unexpected as the Spanish inquisition.
 
Margins are to low on the products for any sort of price fixing to be an issue. Also Intel make integrated graphics chipsets. AMD and Nvidia make cards, which tend to use memory chips that integrated graphics dont use.
 
CleanSlate said:
I hope someone (or some people) hang, if this is true.
Are you mad, sir?

The ticker shows that NVIDIA's stock price fell ~$1.50 from a relative high on November 30th on December 1st (the date of the press release), but seems to have risen back to normal levels yesterday/today. I assume that NVIDIA investor relations representatives have calmed a potential storm, though this may also only represent market fluctuations. As of this moment, NVIDIA is still slightly down from their recent high (and it looks like trading is currently quite frantic).

I don't see any reason for accusations of price fixing. These products have associated development costs and BOMs, and I certainly don't see any evidence that there is any sort of cooperation between ATi/NVIDIA/Intel, so I'm not certain where these accusations have stemmed from.

It's possible that the subpoena is related to Intel, but I think it's more likely that it was issued to gather information on the market itself, as this was somewhat hinted at in the press release.
 
I agree with the people who are saying that this tech is not new or leading edge and is cheap as its ever been to produce. If anything price fixing is a very realistic thing, they are charging more and more and they're margins get higher and higher, because the costs for them get lower. As much as many people have beefs with the government this would be a costly mistake to make, and i'm sure they have alot of info we can only speculate.
 
phide said:
I don't see any reason for accusations of price fixing.

It's possible that the subpoena is related to Intel, but I think it's more likely that it was issued to gather information on the market itself, as this was somewhat hinted at in the press release.

To say that there is no reason for accusations of price fixing is to be blind to the fact that one piece of crappy silicone costs over $650 and the fact that the technology is cheaper than ever to produce. Also, the fact that the prices have been so close with every release with performance always being within 15% or less between new releases.

I wouldn't doubt that there would be reason to at least look into a price fixing situation. Of course other things could explain this but this is one option that I wouldn't just throw out the window for no reason.

~Adam
 
Z28SHAKER said:
wow, i guess this was true then, i wondered why there were no other big graphics processor company's with equal specs the only good ones are Nvidia and ATI !

GUH...

the reason being is the little profit for high end products, also the massive costs it takes to even create a core to compete with these companies, it takes alot of money to make very little money where these companies are at

if a company wanted to, they could, theres nothing holding them back other then common sense, MicroSoft could have developed their own GPU for their console but why spend the massive amount of R&D instead of going through a company with the technology already there.

I wouldn't doubt that there would be reason to at least look into a price fixing situation. Of course other things could explain this but this is one option that I wouldn't just throw out the window for no reason.

these companies have been hit with these before, its not like they were doing anything recently that caused these things to rise, more or less just the govt. making sure nothing shakey is going on.
 
CleanSlate said:
To say that there is no reason for accusations of price fixing is to be blind to the fact that one piece of crappy silicone costs over $650 and the fact that the technology is cheaper than ever to produce.
For starters, video cards components are predominantly made from silicon, not silicone. The latter is a material used for breast implants and caulking.

To get to the meat of the subject, tell me the what the BOM is for this $650 video card (I assume you're talking about the 8800 GTX?). Tell me how much it costs to manufacture such a "crappy" 681 million transistor chip like G80, then detail the price of all other components. Then, go a step further for me, if you would entertain me, and let me know how much money is expended when you develop a piece of technology like this over a four year time span, because that's money that must be recouped eventually. I don't need exact figures, but ballparks with some sort of evidence would be great.

I hope you'll take the time to enlighten me, sir.
 
On further reflection, collusion is unlikely. With such a high concentration of companies, parallelism or price leadership are much more likely, and neither of those are illegal. Parallelism is when companies set the same artificially high price without actually agreeing to, and is only possible with a small number of companies. Price leadership is when one company comes out with a price, and then the other follows it without the execs actually talking to each other.
 
phide said:
It's possible that the subpoena is related to Intel, but I think it's more likely that it was issued to gather information on the market itself, as this was somewhat hinted at in the press release.

In a statement released on Friday, chip maker Nvidia said it had received a subpoena from the San Francisco Office of the DOJ's Antitrust Division regarding possible violations relating to the company's graphics processing units and cards.

Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), who entered the graphics chip industry this past July when it purchased Nvidia rival ATI for $5.6 billion, admitted to receiving a similar subpoena yesterday, also relating to antitrust violations.

I don't think it has anything to do with Intel.
 
osalcido said:
I heard this too and if its true... the federal government is really retarded. They just let AMD combine with ATi not too long ago and now theyre saying ATi was too monopolistic before the buyout? Retarded...

I just got heck for using that word! After reading your statement, I can see their point. Comparing people with a cognitive deficit to the US government is beyond cruel.
;)
 
arthur_tuxedo said:
They probably got caught fixing prices. Collusion is illegal no matter what a company's market share is.

Then why are the gas prices the same at every pump?
 
Gatticus said:
Then why are the gas prices the same at every pump?

Regulation. At least where I live, there is regulation to keep places like Wal Mart from selling gas for just above the wholesale price to run competition out of business. Filling stations are required to price gasoline at least a certain amount above wholesale prices.
 
Met-AL said:
I don't think it has anything to do with Intel.
Intel may have also received a subpoena of some sort, though I wholly doubt it.
 
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