AT&T Sues Nashville In Bid To Stall Google Fiber

Megalith

Megalith

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Nashville has a neat rule, One Touch Make Ready, which goes as far as allowing new ISP companies to move pre-existing utility pole wiring set by companies such as Comcast with their own crews. AT&T is suing because they think Google is incompetent and will mess up their property or, worse, inadvertently create service interruptions.

AT&T has complained that Google Fiber crews don’t always follow safety codes and outlined potential consequences in its lawsuit. “If a copper feeder cable were damaged, 1,000 or more residential customers could lose service, and business customers without redundant service would also lose service,” AT&T wrote in its court complaint. “Some of AT&T’s aerial fiber facilities are used to provide high-capacity switched Ethernet services to various customers including police and fire stations, and to wireless carriers that use the fiber to carry wireless traffic to and from their cell towers. Damage to these facilities could knock out service to emergency responders, and take a cell tower out of service.”
 
Why doesn't AT&T just sue everyone else who does any construction within the public rights of ways.

It's usually AT&T's contractor for utility marking who makes a mistake which results in damage to their lines.
 
JasonPC said:
Why doesn't AT&T just sue everyone else who does any construction within the public rights of ways.

It's usually AT&T's contractor for utility marking who makes a mistake which results in damage to their lines.
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lol AT&T is learning from what comcast did in california to force verizon fios out..
 
As somebody that works for an incumbent, I have to agree with AT&T here. There is no way I would want this to happen with my wires. For the average person who knows nothing sure this sounds like AT&T being assholes, but for anyone with half a brain who actually knows anything about this area Google's desire is fucking idiotic.
 
This is a prime example as to why communities need to follow the successful lead of Chattanooga and other municipalities and build their own non-profit, publicly owned fiber optic services and sell the 1GBps service back to its residents and businesses at a low cost that basically covers maintenance cost and the pay of those charged to maintain it. Unfortunately, Comcast, ATT, Verizon, etc have been suing communities around the nation to stop this. Just here in the Greater Baltimore Area, a startup called Ting did this in a town called Westminster, unfortunately, after a quick and successful rollout there, their expansion plans in the surrounding areas were blocked by a joint lawsuit by Comcast and Verzion. Now after years of being stuck in court, Ting is still being burdened with the lawsuit cost, their contractors got screwed, and Comcast and Verizon get to keep milking their customers with ridiculous pricing and terrible service to please their greedy stockholders. Obama's internet plan he announced at this years State of The Union was suppose to stop this BS, but of course, the cartels threw a lawsuit at that and its currently stuck in the court system as well... But hey, at least our corporate welfare state is still giving these companies billions..
 
Exavior said:
As somebody that works for an incumbent, I have to agree with AT&T here. There is no way I would want this to happen with my wires. For the average person who knows nothing sure this sounds like AT&T being assholes, but for anyone with half a brain who actually knows anything about this area Google's desire is fucking idiotic.
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I agree, I remember when google fiber came thru My parent area in Kansas, and Sliced thru all the current providers lines. it cause my parents to be without service for several days. Google did NOTHING to resolve the issue. just said "oops."
 
Working as a tech for an incumbent is a dangerous job. Although it's not "the most dangerous job" it is still quite dangerous. Of all the jobs that a tech does, aerial work is by far the most dangerous. When placing a ladder on a strand all of the wight is taken by the strand, which is already holding up the cable.

If there is one thing that people don't understand about communications it's the infrastructure required to get the service to your house. The average person does not realize just how physcially different telephone line, cable line and fiber optic line are from one another. We are referring to what runs up and down the street, not what's in your house. The most important physical different is weight. Fiber weighs around 0.25-1 LBS/ft, cable weighs around 0.75-2 LBS/ft and depending on the pair count telephone wire can weigh from 1-10 LBS/ft. That's a significant difference.Why is weight such a important factor?

Different weight cables dictates changes materials, methods and strand size used to attach them to a pole, and in some cases the pole itself.

Lets play out a scene:
  • One touch contractor has no experience hanging telephone cable, just Coaxial and fiber
  • A 900 pair aerial telephone cable (3/8th" strand) needs to be relocated to make way for a fiber strand
  • One touch contractor supports aerial cable and removes the clamps holding the cable to the pole. While doing so the clamp comes apart and he drops a piece.
  • Not wanting to move the bucket to the ground to retrieve the clamp he grabs a shiny new clamp, the same one used to hang fiber with a 3/16th" strand
  • With the boss rushing him he attaches the cable to the pole and release the supports
  • The existing telephone cable is now relocated and hangs just fine
One year later an AT&T technician needs to replace a service drop that runs mid-span and then over to the terminal. This is how it plays out:
  • AT&T tech tests the strand with the rope method (rope over the strand and put your weight on it). The strand supports his weight just fine. No strange sounds.
  • Tech places ladder on strand, ladder weighs 100lbs, worker weighs 225lbs and tools weigh 10lbs.
  • Tech climbs ladder and while he is attaching the safety straps the cable comes out of the anchor
  • Tech falls and injures himself and/or dies
Why did the tech get hurt? Because the clamp was too small! That clamp wouldn't have been there if a improperly trained contractor wouldn't have put it there.

All of this doesn't even begin to touch on the problems with the labor agreement AT&T has with CWA and IBEW. In the southeast AT&T uses all company employees to do the work that the one-touch bill would give to contractors. The city can not, i repeat CAN NOT violate or void a labor agreement that is in place, even if it isn't with them! It's against federal law! As long as the labor agreement is not a violation of the law the city can not intervene.

We aren't just talking about cost, time, permits or damage to property. This issue can and has affected people's lives. Not just livelihood, life or death.
 
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AT&T is going to use every excuse they can come up with (valid or not) to stop any competition.

I honestly hope they get their ass handed to them and Google gets to roll out there. Competition is rarely a bad thing for consumers.
 
In many cases google has been waiting months for AT&T to move their damn cables. If i was a AT&T prisoner I would start a petition saying we don't care if google cuts down AT&T's old corroded wire they should have replaced decades ago but refuse to foot that cost...

Exavior said:
As somebody that works for an incumbent, I have to agree with AT&T here. There is no way I would want this to happen with my wires. For the average person who knows nothing sure this sounds like AT&T being assholes, but for anyone with half a brain who actually knows anything about this area Google's desire is fucking idiotic.
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Except in most cases here Google filed the proper request but AT&T stuck their thumbs up their ass to try to make this as painful as possible for google. Because if google comes in with fair prices and speed that can only be touched by new equipment and runs of expensive cabling that's it good bye profits good bye monopoly of internet service... And no i'm not wrong and I know what I am saying. Think of this maybe google has properly trained people...

Google Fiber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humm 100 up and down for $50 a month. Gigabit for 70 add tv 130...
 
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Exavior said:
As somebody that works for an incumbent, I have to agree with AT&T here. There is no way I would want this to happen with my wires. For the average person who knows nothing sure this sounds like AT&T being assholes, but for anyone with half a brain who actually knows anything about this area Google's desire is fucking idiotic.
Click to expand...

+1

as a telco tech I agree as well
 
bds1904 said:
Working as a tech for an incumbent is a dangerous job. Although it's not "the most dangerous job" it is still quite dangerous. Of all the jobs that a tech does, aerial work is by far the most dangerous. When placing a ladder on a strand all of the wight is taken by the strand, which is already holding up the cable.

If there is one thing that people don't understand about communications it's the infrastructure required to get the service to your house. The average person does not realize just how physcially different telephone line, cable line and fiber optic line are from one another. We are referring to what runs up and down the street, not what's in your house. The most important physical different is weight. Fiber weighs around 0.25-1 LBS/ft, cable weighs around 0.75-2 LBS/ft and depending on the pair count telephone wire can weigh from 1-10 LBS/ft. That's a significant difference.Why is weight such a important factor?

Different weight cables dictates changes materials, methods and strand size used to attach them to a pole, and in some cases the pole itself.

Lets play out a scene:
  • One touch contractor has no experience hanging telephone cable, just Coaxial and fiber
  • A 900 pair aerial telephone cable (3/8th" strand) needs to be relocated to make way for a fiber strand
  • One touch contractor supports aerial cable and removes the clamps holding the cable to the pole. While doing so the clamp comes apart and he drops a piece.
  • Not wanting to move the bucket to the ground to retrieve the clamp he grabs a shiny new clamp, the same one used to hang fiber with a 3/16th" strand
  • With the boss rushing him he attaches the cable to the pole and release the supports
  • The existing telephone cable is now relocated and hangs just fine
One year later an AT&T technician needs to replace a service drop that runs mid-span and then over to the terminal. This is how it plays out:
  • AT&T tech tests the strand with the rope method (rope over the strand and put your weight on it). The strand supports his weight just fine. No strange sounds.
  • Tech places ladder on strand, ladder weighs 100lbs, worker weighs 225lbs and tools weigh 10lbs.
  • Tech climbs ladder and while he is attaching the safety straps the cable comes out of the anchor
  • Tech falls and injures himself and/or dies
Why did the tech get hurt? Because the clamp was too small! That clamp wouldn't have been there if a improperly trained contractor wouldn't have put it there.

All of this doesn't even begin to touch on the problems with the labor agreement AT&T has with CWA and IBEW. In the southeast AT&T uses all company employees to do the work that the one-touch bill would give to contractors. The city can not, i repeat CAN NOT violate or void a labor agreement that is in place, even if it isn't with them! It's against federal law! As long as the labor agreement is not a violation of the law the city can not intervene.

We aren't just talking about cost, time, permits or damage to property. This issue can and has affected people's lives. Not just livelihood, life or death.
Click to expand...

Well said, mid spans are the invention of the devil!

Some of the worst communication workers I've ever met are contractors. Literally their only goal is to spit out as many jobs as possible. Safety and quality be damned
 
Glad to see a few others here actually understand the circumstance here.

Chunder said:
This is a prime example as to why communities need to follow the successful lead of Chattanooga and other municipalities and build their own non-profit, publicly owned fiber optic services and sell the 1GBps service back to its residents and businesses at a low cost that basically covers maintenance cost and the pay of those charged to maintain it. Unfortunately, Comcast, ATT, Verizon, etc have been suing communities around the nation to stop this. Just here in the Greater Baltimore Area, a startup called Ting did this in a town called Westminster, unfortunately, after a quick and successful rollout there, their expansion plans in the surrounding areas were blocked by a joint lawsuit by Comcast and Verzion. Now after years of being stuck in court, Ting is still being burdened with the lawsuit cost, their contractors got screwed, and Comcast and Verizon get to keep milking their customers with ridiculous pricing and terrible service to please their greedy stockholders. Obama's internet plan he announced at this years State of The Union was suppose to stop this BS, but of course, the cartels threw a lawsuit at that and its currently stuck in the court system as well... But hey, at least our corporate welfare state is still giving these companies billions..
Click to expand...

The problem is that you are not smart enough to actually understand the issue at hand here. It wouldn't matter if the city put in fiber or not. That doesn't change that stuff already exist and that you can't pass electricity to your house using fiber. You do understand that correct? The issue at hand here is that right by FCC regulations is that if you are a new company coming into an area and you want to connect to any existing pole or utility easement and you need somebody else to move to make room for you, you contact said companies and give them time to move their stuff (60 days). Google wanted to get the ok to tell people 15 days in advance, we are moving your stuff and then be able to go move stuff as they wish with zero liability. If Google is moving a power connection and breaks it causing 15 blocks to lose power, sorry but tough shit as they aren't responsible for any damage they cause as they didn't think that would happen. if they think they might cause a massive outage they can still move your stuff, but have to give you a 30 day notice. Neither case is acceptable as they have zero reason to be moving power, cable or other companies lines for any reason, especially when they are not being made to assume any liability for any damage.

Lunas said:
In many cases google has been waiting months for AT&T to move their damn cables. If i was a AT&T prisoner I would start a petition saying we don't care if google cuts down AT&T's old corroded wire they should have replaced decades ago but refuse to foot that cost...
Click to expand...

There is a very easy solution, Report them to the FCC and use other legal methods to get the wires moved. Not only that but the FCC regulations allow 60 days, which is 2 months.
 
86 5.0L said:
Well said, mid spans are the invention of the devil!

Some of the worst communication workers I've ever met are contractors. Literally their only goal is to spit out as many jobs as possible. Safety and quality be damned
Click to expand...

That is why I am glad we don't use contractors. We do everything on our own so that we can help try to control the quality by making sure it is all done to our standards. Not that our standards are always the best, but at least there is a subpar standard throughout everything then ;)
 
Back when regulations still existed during the early days of DSL I wanted to get service from Speakeasy. They were known for being one of the best DSL providers nationwide who went out of their way to treat the customer right and allowed residential customers to run as many servers as they wanted without restriction. When I signed up for their service all they had to check was my distance to the CO, regulations made it possible for them to get Ameritech (now AT&T) to lay down a brand new copper pair line from that CO to my house at no cost to me. And since every ISP was capable of doing the same there were at least a dozen ISP options for me to choose from and pricing was very competitive among all.

Then the 2001 administration came in and deregulation happened with their usual bullshit lies and false promises that it would "increase competition" when in fact the opposite took place. As a result all we have today are monopolies and self serving fuckass politicians that keep lining their pockets with the money from lobbyists to keep things that way.
 
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It's nice how they reveal all the information crooks need to drop police stations offline lol.
 
There is a very simple solution for all of this: The city of Nashville should eminent domain every single flag pole in the city and every strand of wire that is laid. That way the city gets a piece of the action and forces competition. But we all know that will never happen...
 
Exavior said:
As somebody that works for an incumbent, I have to agree with AT&T here. There is no way I would want this to happen with my wires. For the average person who knows nothing sure this sounds like AT&T being assholes, but for anyone with half a brain who actually knows anything about this area Google's desire is fucking idiotic.
Click to expand...
Every time you touch anything, things can stop working. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to move your washer, dryer and fridge when you move on the off chance it'll be dead. This also means you shouldn't stop installing security updates in the off chance that something bad happens. You move forward as best as you can and you take your chances. Also, it's not like those AT&T ran phone lines don't just stop working all on their own with nobody touching them, because it's happened to our main line where I work.
 
bds1904 said:
Working as a tech for an incumbent is a dangerous job. Although it's not "the most dangerous job" it is still quite dangerous. Of all the jobs that a tech does, aerial work is by far the most dangerous. When placing a ladder on a strand all of the wight is taken by the strand, which is already holding up the cable.
Click to expand...

Can you explain why a ladder would ever be placed on a strand? That seems extremely dangerous to me. Is it a cost issue? As in, a ladder is cheaper than a basket lift? Or an access issue where a truck can't reach the cable? Obviously it works as it's done all the time, but I just don't think I could trust that cable to support the ladder and a person. I don't do that type of work at all (I'm a programmer) so I'm completely ignorant on this issue. It just seems like relying on the proper clamp, that's in good condition, and installed properly would be a recipe for disaster. I don't trust anyone to do anything right, even within the same company.
 
i960 said:
Can you explain why a ladder would ever be placed on a strand? That seems extremely dangerous to me.
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^^^

This is the part that basically makes it sound like an scenario specifically crafted to guide reader opinion while having no basis IRL.
 
i960 said:
Can you explain why a ladder would ever be placed on a strand? That seems extremely dangerous to me. Is it a cost issue? As in, a ladder is cheaper than a basket lift? Or an access issue where a truck can't reach the cable? Obviously it works as it's done all the time, but I just don't think I could trust that cable to support the ladder and a person. I don't do that type of work at all (I'm a programmer) so I'm completely ignorant on this issue. It just seems like relying on the proper clamp, that's in good condition, and installed properly would be a recipe for disaster. I don't trust anyone to do anything right, even within the same company.
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The reason you mentioned is why, and mid spans are done due to property lines, obstructions, proper legal clearances from other cables/ground. Sometimes there's splice cases a few feet off the pole, etc.

Then you have idiots like these

 
86 5.0L said:
Sometimes there's splice cases a few feet off the pole, etc.
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How about 10+ feet off the nearest pole? :p

Came across this while updating a job at work the other day.

mid_splice.jpg
 
Damar said:
How about 10+ feet off the nearest pole? :p

Came across this while updating a job at work the other day.
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Off-topic, but that looks like a bodega in NYC (I saw the Puerto Rican flag on the right side).
 
Damar said:
How about 10+ feet off the nearest pole? :p

Came across this while updating a job at work the other day.

mid_splice.jpg
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Shit that's bucket truck work allll day. No way I'm getting my ladder out for that.
 
86 5.0L said:
Shit that's bucket truck work allll day. No way I'm getting my ladder out for that.
Click to expand...

I looked at the work print for that job and couldn't believe they'd actually done that, but a quick note to the current head of engineering and a Google peek confirmed it.

No one is happy about that little stunt, trust me. Adding a cable into that isn't going to be fun.

tungt88 said:
Off-topic, but that looks like a bodega in NYC (I saw the Puerto Rican flag on the right side).
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Yes its in NY. Corner of Cortlandt Ave and E 154th St. =)
 
Damar said:
I looked at the work print for that job and couldn't believe they'd actually done that, but a quick note to the current head of engineering and a Google peek confirmed it.

No one is happy about that little stunt, trust me. Adding a cable into that isn't going to be fun.
Click to expand...

Thankfully that's above my paygrade, refer to engineering and move on lol
 
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