AT&T Sues Louisville To Make City Less Attractive To Google Fiber

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by HardOCP News, Feb 26, 2016.

  1. HardOCP News

    HardOCP News [H] News

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    It looks like AT&T is afraid of Google Fiber. The company has filed a federal lawsuit against the city of Louisville to throw a monkey wrench in Google Fiber's plan to bring its service to the area.


    Yesterday, AT&T filed a lawsuit [PDF] against the Louisville government over a recently passed ordinance that amends existing city rules about the use of utility poles and rights-of-way to give a new “Attacher” — like, say Google Fiber — the right to rearrange or relocate the existing physical facilities and pole attachments of other communications providers, which basically means AT&T.
     
  2. When you can't beat them...
    SUE THEM!

    The American way sadly.
     
  3. Kenjiwing

    Kenjiwing 2[H]4U

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    As a louisville resident :(
     
  4. kbrickley

    kbrickley [H]ardness Supreme

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    AT&T has a valid complaint here. This isn't just an ordinance to allow more competitors in the market, this allows the competitors to potentially move you out of the way in order to make room for them. This would be the same as an airline shutting down or moving a competing airline to another gate. Ultimately the best long term solution (although more expensive) is for cities to buy all the infrastructure and either maintain it themselves or lease the infrastructure to a 3rd party. All competing services would then use the same infrastructure. This wouldn't help performance based competition but would definitely allow more price competition. To allow competing infrastructure will generally become more and more difficult as it becomes more difficult to lay city wide fiber networks to compete with preinstalled copper networks.
     
  5. vinciblegod

    vinciblegod n00b

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    Well, did they get subsidies from the state to build them? Also, I think ATT's plan of each company having their own pole probably makes the place a lot messier (i.e. uglier).
     
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  6. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Just took a quick look at AT&T's complaint and if what they are claiming is true about 3rd parties being able to alter their infrastructure without warning then that would appear to be a valid concern.
     
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  7. Axehandler

    Axehandler Gawd

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    I don't think everyone having their own pole would be a good idea. but allowing another company to take/move your equipment even with a notice, would be a bad idea...
    I mean how many "prime" locations could be "moved" at the same time causing Mass disruption?

    Axe
     
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  8. Twisted Kidney

    Twisted Kidney 2[H]4U

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    Socialist. ;)
     
  9. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    AT&T is in the right here unfortunately what the city did means more work for AT7T as they now have to go out and fix what Google broke...
     
  10. Dwango

    Dwango Gawd

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    Google already has the right to attach to the poles and move AT&T's equipment around if it doesn't disrupt service. The only thing this law does is drop the requirement that AT&T be notified of the movement if there won't be any disruption in service. The city is just trying to make themselves more attractive to Google. In the end Google may not even go there and then the law and AT&T's lawsuit will have been for nothing.
     
  11. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Still does not change the fact that they are in the right...
     
  12. elavanis

    elavanis n00b

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    While living near Louisville and working in the city this has been a topic at work for a while. The ordinance gives Google the right to move their equipment as long as it doesn't cause issues with their network. I believe Google is supposed to give written notification when it is able. The rational was that ATT&T could never move their equipment and thus block Google from ever installing theirs. This would allow Google to be able to install their equipment. If there was an issue then ATT&T could bill Google for the cost to repair the connection. I can see both sides. When hypothetical Google notifies ATT&T that they need to move their equipment and doesn't it creates a legal road block. This alleviates that issue. However the question in the back of my mind is if Google is moving ATT&T equipment to some where else on the pole why couldn't they put their equipment at that location, there was obviously room.

    *I did not attend the town hall meeting where this ordinance was discussed and have not read the actual ordinance so what I'm saying is what I've heard. Take what I say with a big dose of salt.
     
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  13. pothb

    pothb [H]ardness Supreme

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    If what is done doesn't disrupt service, what's there to fix? I mean, it said, as long as it doesn't interrupt service, right?
     
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  14. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    how about Google works around AT&T ? Or, if they need to consult AT&T before randomly moving their stuff?
     
  15. pothb

    pothb [H]ardness Supreme

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    Sure, they could do that, but I still don't get what you mean by "more work for att as they now have to go out and fix what google broke".
     
  16. Skripka

    Skripka [H]ardForum Junkie

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    "Corporations are people too, my friend"-Mittington Romnefellor the 3rd
     
  17. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    that's ridiculously easy Google moves a piece of equipment, it quits working, ATT is forced to go fix it.
     
  18. pothb

    pothb [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not gonna lie, the person who changed that needed a sledge hammer to the face. It wouldn't have made him any dumber.
    If it quits working because Google moved it, then this law doesn't matter because it disrupted service, which this law doesn't protect. If it quit working just because, then this law wouldn't matter because it stopped working not because google moved it.

    So tell me, how what you said made sense?
     
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  19. kbrickley

    kbrickley [H]ardness Supreme

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    I did propose the 3rd party option too ... so maybe just a naive capitalist :clown:
     
  20. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    did you READ the article?

     
  21. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    AT&T could just spread their stuff out and monopolize key locations.
     
  22. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    Screw Louisville and those silly red bird fans.
    Bring it down to Lexington!
    Although, having a wicked fiber line during LANwar would be pretty kick ass...
    Even better, Nicholasville. Needs a HUGE communications infrastructure upgrade, and in a very bad way.
     
  23. thefordmccord

    thefordmccord [H]ard|Gawd

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    Fuck AT&T. They fucking suck in Kentucky. They only thing I can get at my house is shit DSL and they have done everything they can to make sure nobody else can come in.
     
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  24. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    While true, at what point does a company like AT&T simply "hog" the pole to the point where nothing very little can fit simply for the sake of literally forcing competition off the infrastructure.
     
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  25. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    What - exactly - does this mean?

    They have the right to relocate other providers facilities?

    I love google fiber, and would love for them to come to my neighborhood, but the way this can be interpreted, I'd sue too. :p
     
  26. Booyaah

    Booyaah [H]Lite

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    Yeah screw Louisville, come to Cincinnati instead, we welcome all forms of fiber :)
     
  27. pothb

    pothb [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm going off what dwango said. Which was that they don't need to notify, if there is no disruption. So I'm asking, if there isn't a disruption, then what's there to fix?
     
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  28. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I am coming by your house tonight and move your car, if it still runs, what's the problem? Do you understand yet? You don't mess with other people's stuff without asking first... btw I am going to use any method I see fit to move your car
     
  29. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't know .... I heard they have a pretty big pole :LOL:
     
  30. pothb

    pothb [H]ardness Supreme

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    That does happen, its call a tow company.
     
  31. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I guess if I scratch the crap out of your car and break something, as long as it functions, we're good, right? That is the asinine position you are arguing. and cars are towed for being where they should NOT be or they have broken down, or owners getting the repo.

    like it or not ATT is in the right here. No one should be moving their perfectly legal stuff without their consent or if needed assistance.

    this is just:

    a. common courtesy
    b. common sense

    Maybe the city should say "people no longer need to call the power company before digging or moving their lines"
     
  32. kbrickley

    kbrickley [H]ardness Supreme

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    So why not mandate limits to how much of the pole you can take before you get your contractual leasing fees increased. An airline can decide to charge you for a second seat if you take up too much space, why can't the city charge a company if they take up too much of the pole or block other users from accessing it.
     
  33. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    So AT&T pays a trivial amount more and blocks out all competition. easy.
    Oh, and then they charge their customers a line hogging fee.
     
  34. Damar

    Damar [H]ardness Supreme

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    Since a pole has a limited amount of space to attach cables to, (and any given pole often has shared ownership between the city and any/all companies that attach to it), by attaching to a given pole, companies often forfeit the right to fuck around or make it difficult for anyone else to attach to that same pole, even competitors. A 40' pole only has around 30-35' of space above ground, and there is a set of rules about who gets what parts of that space. Electrical is almost always at the very top, and no one else can attach within 'X' number of feet/inches of it out of safety concerns. After that it's usually shared space for everyone else (phone/telecom and cable TV is often at the bottom).

    When going along their merry unionized ass way, most companies employees will hook up their cable to the easiest, quickest spot on a pole that they are allowed to use, which most times is "shared" space, and over time, as more cables are put up, the space in use is likely not optimized, or wastes space, so this needs to be adjusted over time to correct the wasted space, since putting up another pole is never simple.

    AT&T is simply crying about something that's already done to their cables all over the country.
     
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  35. Damar

    Damar [H]ardness Supreme

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    By attaching to a jointly owned pole, they almost always forfeit the right to bitch about someone else adjusting the cables on said pole to make best use of space.

    If they don't own the pole 100%, they get no say. Now do you understand how it works?
     
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  36. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    wow,

    ownership is irrelevant here, ATT has permission to use said stuff. I have no problem with Goggle using the pole but they need to work out the logistics with the other provider(s) on said pole. The city is basically saying FU to ATT because they want Google to come in. It's like 2 companies sharing a server rack that they both have permission to use... if you were one guy on the rack would you want the other guy coming in and screwing around and MOVING YOUR EQUIPMENT without your consent? I think not.
     
  37. pothb

    pothb [H]ardness Supreme

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    I can't imagine the posts you'd make about towing companies then.
     
  38. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    I have a telephone pole outside my house, a few months ago they actually put a horizontal beam across it, now they have more room to ruin my view :D
     
  39. a104375

    a104375 [H]Lite

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    From what I've read here the only thing being argued is the notice. Carriers can already rearrange poll configurations to perform "make ready work" provided they've given proper notice as required by the FCC. "Under the FCC’s regulations, an entity with existing attachments, including AT&T, is entitled to prior written notice in the event any make-ready work would affect the entity’s facilities. 47 C.F.R. § 1.1420(e). Under the FCC’s regulations, the entity with existing attachments, including AT&T, has up to 60 days (and potentially more, depending upon the type of facilities and size of the order) to modify its attachments to accommodate a new attacher. 47 C.F.R. § 1.1420(e). Further, under the FCC’s regulation, a new attacher may hire a contractor to complete the make-ready work itself only if the work has not been completed by the specified deadline. 47 C.F.R. § 1.1420(i)."

    Going on further to say that Louisville doesn't have the authority to modify pole rights.
     
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  40. Exavior

    Exavior [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Exactly they aren't saying that Google or anyone else can't move their stuff if needed. They are simply asking that no matter what if it will just be a move that causing no possible disruption or if there is no possible cause for a disruption they be notified the same either way.

    As a person that works for a telco/isp I can fully understand their thought process here. We have records stating exactly what poles we are on, what sides of buildings... if somebody decided we have enough slack and moved our stuff over to the other side of an alley way as they wanted to be in the spot that we were, when we go out next time we have no idea where our wire is located now as it was moved.

    Right now we are on the poles for one of the local power companies, they needed to put up new poles that are 15 feet back from where they are now. They didn't just move our fiber from the old poles to the new poles by taking out the slack and moving the fiber over to the new poles. They told us they needed us to move the fiber to the new pole lineup and gave us a time frame for when it needs to be done. Currently we think it can just be moved, however we might need to cut the fiber and splice in about 25 feet. Based on the logic that is going on here, if the power company thinks that we have enough slack they could just move our fiber and not tell us. If they happen to break something or they try to move it and find that we don't have enough slack and we need to splice a piece in we would be having to rush out there to quickly take care of the problem out of the blue. By them telling us we have time to go and look at what is going on and then decide on our own how to handle the move.

    There is nothing wrong with AT&T's request. No matter if you think it will do anything or not, it is still best practice to give the other guys advance notice that you are doing something. We share plenty of places with Comcast and Frontier in one city we service with fiber. If anything needs to be moved or done we give the other company advanced notice and they do the same to us. And any pole that we share with the power company they give us notice if it is their pole and we give them notice if it is ours. And all of it works out fine.
     
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