Are we going to see good Intel processors anymore?

LukeTbk

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You clearly are missing the point and trying to tailor the argument to suit your naive narrative. Steam is far and away the more popular software, and it is installed on almost every "consumer" level gaming PC. You can't say the same for Passmark. It's people like you that perpetuate the nonsense I was speaking about earlier. You read those clickbait articles and then want to try and apply it to the whole market. Your argument that AMD has 50% of the CPU market is ONLY valid if you are talking about in the Passmark benchmark alone NOT the industry as a whole. There is a difference, I highly suggest you learn it.
most PC are not gaming PC, it is less niche than passmark but still a biased sample, I am pretty sure steam is way more AMD than in the total market place. You need to look at new sales during the last quarter not just the market share of ongoing device like something steam/passmark are looking at (passmark wil have giant bias toward new device at least, has people benchmark just bought PC much more than their old machine).

If it means recent desktop sales, AMD is over 50%.
Source ?

Hardly representative of the desktop market. Stop comparing passmark, steam or whatever the fuk else and look at the big picture. NO software or survey on a specific platform is going to give an accurate picture of PC ownership.
So why did you post passmark survey data ?
 

CraptacularOne

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So we are talking about a sliver of desktop market that:
1) have steam installed
2) actually take the survey
3) are gamers

Hardly representative of the desktop market. Stop comparing passmark, steam or whatever the fuk else and look at the big picture. NO software or survey on a specific platform is going to give an accurate picture of PC ownership.
I can't believe you are this clueless. Are you serious this stupid or just trolling?

1) we are talking about PCs in general.
2) there is no "taking" the steam survey. It skims data automatically, if you have it installed you took the survey (unless you have all your privacy settings turned on which most people don't)
3) virtually anyone can play a game be it on their integrated graphics on their thin and light to full blown gaming rigs.
 

Mega6

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I can't believe you are this clueless. Are you serious this stupid or just trolling?

1) we are talking about PCs in general.
2) there is no "taking" the steam survey. It skims data automatically, if you have it installed you took the survey (unless you have all your privacy settings turned on which most people don't)
3) virtually anyone can play a game be it on their integrated graphics on their thin and light to full blown gaming rigs.
1) Why would anyone bring up a steam survey in a general pc ownership question? That implies everyone who owns a pc installs steam.
2) team Survey is NOT automated. IT IS 100% by choice and manual.
3) gamers thanks for agreeing with my point. Niche survey.

Watch the name calling and try and act slightly mature. Are you like a seven year old posting here?
 

FrgMstr

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jarablue

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I am not sure I get what being a fanboi is? Intel Rocket Lake, for all we know right now, gaming is better than AMD. That's it. And for creative workloads, AMD is better. Who gives a fuck?

Intel did some pretty impressive IPC for 14nm. Are you just dumb that you blindly say Intel sucks? Do you work there? Because I have, and there were a lot ridiculously smart people.

This is some retard shit level stuff. AMD has it's benefits and so does Intel.

It's like people on hardware forums are personally offended and hurt. I just don't get it. You want the competition. You want it to be see saw.

I hope AMD wipes Intels ass on the next round and then Intel beats the shit out of them the round after that. Both are good companies. Intel and AMD are so entrenched in the worlds computing industry that they ain't going nowhere. That's it. You actually think either company would close? Because of a shitty performing CPU? OK.

I guess once you hit a certain age, the weenie bro leaves your body/mind. Anyways, Happy New Years!
 
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Mega6

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I am not sure I get what being a fanboi is? Intel Rocket Lake, for all we know right now, gaming is better than AMD. That's it. And for creative workloads, AMD is better. Who gives a fuck?

Intel did some pretty impressive IPC for 14nm. Are you just dumb that you blindly say Intel sucks? Do you work there? Because I have, and there were a lot ridiculously smart people.

This is some retard shit level stuff. AMD has it's benefits and so does Intel.

It's like people on hardware forums are personally offended and hurt. I just don't get it. You want the competition. You want it to be see saw.

I hope AMD wipes Intels ass on the next round and then Intel beats the shit out of them the round after that. Both are good companies. Intel and AMD are so entrenched in the worlds computing industry that they ain't going nowhere. That's it. You actually think either company would close? Because of a shitty performing CPU? OK.

I guess once you hit a certain age, the weenie bro leaves your body/mind. Anyways, Happy New Years!
i don't take vendor benchmarks at face value. if you do, I would suggest at best you are gullible. You sure are opinionated for someone who doesn't give a fuck. As far as 14nm, who gives a fuck? The rest of the word is on something smaller. Intel's biggest problem is the former CFO egghead at the top that is spending all of intels money on stock buybacks instead of R&D.

Please be more specific on "retarded level stuff' and I am sure that it can be clarified for you.

But year, i agree - some postings in this thread are quite juvenile.
 
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daglesj

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Can I just ask...how much better do they need to be already? How many of us are actually really struggling here like we may have been back in say 2002?

Now waiting for the two folks that process 8K video "all day" for some obscure reason, and the ones that feel they need to go from 200FPS to 210FPS. Oh yeah and the poor lost souls that just live for benchmarks...
 

noko

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I wanted to go AMD but the lack of stock made it impossible. Been waiting a couple years for the right time. Wanted a 5900x but settled on a 10850k and Z490 that I'll be installing tomorrow. I'm already going from 4 cores to 10 and the benchmarks between the two are very close. I think Intel likely to leap frog AMD on single core performance next gen at the expense of power, heat, and cores. Intel is doing what AMD was going with 200+ watt CPUs to make up for IPC disadvantage. Not ideal but at least I can get my hands on an Intel setup and it was $160 cheaper and my H110 AIO will work.
How did that turn out? What did you buy? Seems the 10 core at a cheaper price than a 5800x 8 core would be a better all around CPU. Plus has 2 more cores than what Rocket lake will have. From my testing, from what that maybe worth, PCIE 4.0 SSDs give little if any performance boost in real applications/games, only in benchmarks that do not represent anything I've seen with real applications. As for GPU's, pcie 4 may only be useful if you have 2x top end GPUs in the two 16x slots running at 8x, for one slot for full 16x, nothing I can see would have any significant advantage.

In a nutshell, Intel are currently making good processors very usable compared to AMD, more importantly, readily available.
 

Jinto

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Intel is still fine on X86. The bigger challenge is ARM. AMD is already working on ARM cpus, maybe Intel is too but we haven't heard any rumors. Furthermore Intel is behind on graphics and by extension AI/ML etc. Just don't see Intel working on anything that can be the 'future'. Likely why the market is valuing Intel so cheaply.
 

freeagentt

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I just built a new AMD system.. but I am excited to see what Intel brings to the table.. and I know I can sell my AMD parts for a good price if I need to :D
 

noko

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I am tempted to buy a MSI Z490 Unity motherboard, it supports pcie 4 as with most of MSI if not all of their Z490 motherboards:

https://itigic.com/all-compatible-models-of-z490-boards-with-pcie-4-0/

Reason being is I expect a pretty hefty price hike incoming with Z590 boards unless the tariffs are relaxed and then still a price hike. I hope I am wrong there. Now pcie 4 really has not delivered much in the end but nice to have that option.
 

sram

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How did that turn out? What did you buy? Seems the 10 core at a cheaper price than a 5800x 8 core would be a better all around CPU. Plus has 2 more cores than what Rocket lake will have. From my testing, from what that maybe worth, PCIE 4.0 SSDs give little if any performance boost in real applications/games, only in benchmarks that do not represent anything I've seen with real applications. As for GPU's, pcie 4 may only be useful if you have 2x top end GPUs in the two 16x slots running at 8x, for one slot for full 16x, nothing I can see would have any significant advantage.

In a nutshell, Intel are currently making good processors very usable compared to AMD, more importantly, readily available.
https://www.techradar.com/news/inte...t-time-in-3-years-is-the-desktop-tide-turning

:):)
 
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Dan_D

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I am tempted to buy a MSI Z490 Unity motherboard, it supports pcie 4 as with most of MSI if not all of their Z490 motherboards:

https://itigic.com/all-compatible-models-of-z490-boards-with-pcie-4-0/

Reason being is I expect a pretty hefty price hike incoming with Z590 boards unless the tariffs are relaxed and then still a price hike. I hope I am wrong there. Now pcie 4 really has not delivered much in the end but nice to have that option.

I've got the Maximus XII Extreme and I wish it had more lanes. PCIe 4.0 compatibility would allow me to get the same bandwidth I have for my GPU while adding more NVMe drives.
 
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Dan_D

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Is the tide turning?

Hmmm, great analysis by TechRadar. Both companies can sell every desktop chip they make. Who can make more?

I wanted to upgrade my gaming rig with a new CPU, and frankly I got tired of waiting months for a 5900X or 5950X. I said fuck it and bought a 10900K. Why? Because they were readily available at or below MSRP. I had motherboards on hand to support either one so that wasn't a factor. For my needs, either companies offerings work just as well. Availability literally won me over when I felt like buying a new CPU.
 

noko

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Is the tide turning?

Hmmm, great analysis by TechRadar. Both companies can sell every desktop chip they make. Who can make more?
Exactly, Intel definitely can make boat loads of them. Looks like AMD was much more concern about making chips for Consoles which of course both Sony and Microsoft want more and more of them. Can't help not think that the lack of PC parts as in gaming GPUs and CPUs is also another driving force to the Console sales. AMD giving up, in my opinion lower profit margin console APU chips over much higher ones as in CPUs/GPUs is biting them in the ass. Take one million of the over 4.5 million PS5 APUs that Sony sold in the first 2 months and make GPUs with them and AMD would have owned the PC GPU market right now. Take another million for CPU's and AMD profit margins would be much higher than it was in the 4th quarter. Investors in the end are not that thrilled on that choice it appears even when AMD made record revenue and profits.
 

LukeTbk

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Take another million for CPU's and AMD profit margins would be much higher than it was in the 4th quarter.
I imagine you have a point, if I understand the numbers correctly more than 125 millions X86 cpus shipped in Q4 2020, 19% of those being AMD (around 23-24 millions)

And apparently less than 1 millions of those were Ryzen 5000 desktop processor (probably a lot of Chromebook type and older chips laptop type)
 

vick1000

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Exactly, Intel definitely can make boat loads of them. Looks like AMD was much more concern about making chips for Consoles which of course both Sony and Microsoft want more and more of them. Can't help not think that the lack of PC parts as in gaming GPUs and CPUs is also another driving force to the Console sales. AMD giving up, in my opinion lower profit margin console APU chips over much higher ones as in CPUs/GPUs is biting them in the ass. Take one million of the over 4.5 million PS5 APUs that Sony sold in the first 2 months and make GPUs with them and AMD would have owned the PC GPU market right now. Take another million for CPU's and AMD profit margins would be much higher than it was in the 4th quarter. Investors in the end are not that thrilled on that choice it appears even when AMD made record revenue and profits.
Why would they give up an order from companies like Sony and MS for etailers and PC manufacturers? You start telling your large customers you can't fill an order, what will they do next generation?
 

noko

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Why would they give up an order from companies like Sony and MS for etailers and PC manufacturers? You start telling your large customers you can't fill an order, what will they do next generation?
To not give up your higher profit margin skews, not sure what kind of contract AMD has with Sony and Microsoft plus the relationship on the development of the Consoles in which the R&D helped AMD maybe for their GPUs. AMD is missing sells on both; their GPUs which is most likely a way higher profit margin product and especially their CPUs where their profit margin is probably over the top. Anyways when you are forced to make and sell your lower profit margin items and have to limit your other items -> investors take notice. Their last financial call this was brought up several times plus AMD was not clear if in the near future the constraint on production will be lifted. Meaning at least to me their is a clear limit in how much more AMD can expand with current conditions -> Hence the large fall in their stock price after the call regardless of their stellar year. AMD, well recent rumors dealing with Samsung while it can be good is also not an immediate remedy either and also makes some probably think TSMC is not in position to make much more AMD chips. Just my thoughts at this time.
 

E4g1e

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AMD, well recent rumors dealing with Samsung while it can be good is also not an immediate remedy either and also makes some probably think TSMC is not in position to make much more AMD chips. Just my thoughts at this time.
Well, Rocket Lake might be the very last mainstream desktop CPU from Intel that will use its own in-house fabrication process. It has been having severe trouble getting even its 10 nm process down pat, restricting that process's usage to low-power mobile CPUs with four or fewer cores. As a result, future Intel mainstream CPUs will be switching to TSMC's fabs and processes. Intel's own fabs will then be restricted to server CPU production.
 
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noko

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Well, Rocket Lake might be the very last mainstream desktop CPU from Intel that will use its own in-house fabrication process. It has been having severe trouble getting even its 10 nm process down pat, restricting that process's usage to low-power mobile CPUs with four or fewer cores. As a result, future Intel mainstream CPUs will be switching to TSMC's fabs and processes. Intel's own fabs will then be restricted to server CPU production.
That is highly optimistic for TSMC to be able to do the volume that Intel normally does. They can't even supply AMD what they need. I doubt Intel will switch a significant amount to TSMC, I can see GPUs, maybe a few CPU skews. Samsung is spending big money, building a rather big fab, 5nm EUV and smaller nodes (they bought the land, getting zoning change, trying for some tax breaks etc. in Austin Texas, construction has not started as far as I know) goal is 2023 production. TSMC Arizona 5nm plant should go online in 2024 but that plant is small compared to what is in Taiwan. Add in the tension between China and US putting Taiwan in the middle, possible China take over or very aggressive negotiations puts some things in flux as well. It would be best if Intel figure out their own problems and get their ass in gear, while they indicated their 7nm progress is going good recently, it was not quantified what that means or when mass production will happen.

I also would consider Intel stuck on 14nm process and yet can be competitive to AMD is a very good sign on their engineering design team and once they do, if, a better Intel process, things can really turn around.
 
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E4g1e

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Anything is possible. Worst case is Intel gives up on the core- and thread-count race, and simply rolls all of its mainstream CPU production back to a maximum of 4 cores and 8 threads. This would devastate the entire PC industry.
 

vick1000

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To not give up your higher profit margin skews, not sure what kind of contract AMD has with Sony and Microsoft plus the relationship on the development of the Consoles in which the R&D helped AMD maybe for their GPUs. AMD is missing sells on both; their GPUs which is most likely a way higher profit margin product and especially their CPUs where their profit margin is probably over the top. Anyways when you are forced to make and sell your lower profit margin items and have to limit your other items -> investors take notice. Their last financial call this was brought up several times plus AMD was not clear if in the near future the constraint on production will be lifted. Meaning at least to me their is a clear limit in how much more AMD can expand with current conditions -> Hence the large fall in their stock price after the call regardless of their stellar year. AMD, well recent rumors dealing with Samsung while it can be good is also not an immediate remedy either and also makes some probably think TSMC is not in position to make much more AMD chips. Just my thoughts at this time.
Do you realize what you are saying? You expect AMD to deny Sony and MS a simply massive purchase, because they want a higher profit margin, regardless of overall profit? That's stupid. AMD and it's investors would be broke without Sony and MS. A business succeeds by growing market share, not shrinking it. Maximizing profit margin despite market share will get you smoked, for all sorts of reasons besides overall profits, which are still going to be higher for AMD due to consoles. Catering to the enthusiast market gets you nothing compared to the massive sales to console makers.

Would you rather sell 100x products that costs you $1 to make for $10 each.
Or 100000x that cost you $2 and you sell them for $3.

It's the classic deceptive tactic of "operating ratio",that is used by hedge funds to artificially inflate stock prices before they liquidate.
 
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noko

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Do you realize what you are saying? You expect AMD to deny Sony and MS a simply massive purchase, because they want a higher profit margin, regardless of overall profit? That's stupid. AMD and it's investors would be broke without Sony and MS. A business succeeds by growing market share, not shrinking it. Maximizing profit margin despite market share will get you smoked, for all sorts of reasons besides overall profits, which are still going to be higher for AMD due to consoles. Catering to the enthusiast market gets you nothing compared to the massive sales to console makers.

Would you rather sell 100x products that costs you $1 to make for $10 each.
Or 100000x that cost you $2 and you sell them for $3.

It's the classic deceptive tactic of "operating ratio",that is used by hedge funds to artificially inflate stock prices before they liquidate.
I expect AMD to look out for the best interest to those who invested, gave them capital, taking a risk vice taking care of Microsoft and Sony first while raising prices for their CPUs and GPUs, basically PC users are supplementing consoles indirectly so their profit margin is above 45% at 47% . There should be clear limits in their contract with Microsoft and Sony which cannot hijack their other business. How does XFX, Sapphire, Powercolor and endless OEMs that cannot get parts now are doing? The profit margin of their EPYC line is way up there, CPUs in general is also high while GPUs are probably much lower, console profit margin is pure dirt yet that is where AMD is sending most of their allotted fab chips on, low profit margin items. That was a business choice, long term it has a solid foundation but if you wreck your other business it is a lose lose choice in my opinion. Motherboard makers are also affected with the rather low quantity of AMD CPUs but lets take care of Microsoft and Sony first and give the middle finger to all the other businesses and PC users wanting/needing parts. AMD "Consoles first and everyone else wait in line".

How this helps Intel I see is giving them time in the PC space to reclaim what they lost. Pretty easy when your competition is so busy making console APUs that they forget they also make CPUs and GPUs. For gaming PCs, Intel works great, are available at a cheaper cost now and that is where the market will go where AMD basically created their own famine. Well when Intel does come back strong maybe AMD will need those nibbles from Microsoft and Sony Consoles while Microsoft and Sony will just ditch them for Nvidia or Intel on their next adventure in a heartbeat.
 

daglesj

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Anything is possible. Worst case is Intel gives up on the core- and thread-count race, and simply rolls all of its mainstream CPU production back to a maximum of 4 cores and 8 threads. This would devastate the entire PC industry.


Would it really? Would it hurt general corporate Office365 Laptop/desktops? 90% of the machines I work on domestic and business out in the 'ordinary world' have just 4 cores or fewer.

World doesnt revolve around enthusiasts.
 

OFaceSIG

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I wanted to upgrade my gaming rig with a new CPU, and frankly I got tired of waiting months for a 5900X or 5950X. I said fuck it and bought a 10900K. Why? Because they were readily available at or below MSRP. I had motherboards on hand to support either one so that wasn't a factor. For my needs, either companies offerings work just as well. Availability literally won me over when I felt like buying a new CPU.
Same here. Needed a hex core for my step son's machine. 10400 for 150 bucks readily available won me over.
 
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Same here. Needed a hex core for my step son's machine. 10400 for 150 bucks readily available won me over.
I hear ya. I sold my buddy a i7 8086k rig last year. He decided to nab one of the $300 9900k microcenter deals so im buying back the 8086k to pair with one of my z390 mbs and spare 980tis, just to have something to build! Im done waiting for a 5900x, dont get me started about the friggin 6800xt situation. Im out of patience. If one falls in my lap awesome. Otherwise fugit, im to old for this shit.
 

vick1000

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I expect AMD to look out for the best interest to those who invested, gave them capital, taking a risk vice taking care of Microsoft and Sony first while raising prices for their CPUs and GPUs, basically PC users are supplementing consoles indirectly so their profit margin is above 45% at 47% . There should be clear limits in their contract with Microsoft and Sony which cannot hijack their other business. How does XFX, Sapphire, Powercolor and endless OEMs that cannot get parts now are doing? The profit margin of their EPYC line is way up there, CPUs in general is also high while GPUs are probably much lower, console profit margin is pure dirt yet that is where AMD is sending most of their allotted fab chips on, low profit margin items. That was a business choice, long term it has a solid foundation but if you wreck your other business it is a lose lose choice in my opinion. Motherboard makers are also affected with the rather low quantity of AMD CPUs but lets take care of Microsoft and Sony first and give the middle finger to all the other businesses and PC users wanting/needing parts. AMD "Consoles first and everyone else wait in line".

How this helps Intel I see is giving them time in the PC space to reclaim what they lost. Pretty easy when your competition is so busy making console APUs that they forget they also make CPUs and GPUs. For gaming PCs, Intel works great, are available at a cheaper cost now and that is where the market will go where AMD basically created their own famine. Well when Intel does come back strong maybe AMD will need those nibbles from Microsoft and Sony Consoles while Microsoft and Sony will just ditch them for Nvidia or Intel on their next adventure in a heartbeat.
You still don't get it? AMD has made the bulk of their gains and profit from the console market for years now. Not filling Sony and MS orders would devistate their bottom line, now and in the future.
 

OrangeKhrush

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let's also not forget that console gaming still remains the most prevalent, a console is plug and play also doubles as a home theatre system.

AMD also makes royalties on consoles, game studios tend to make games tailored for console first which also means monatory privileges for development.

this constant toxic rhetoric of PCMR is getting old fast.
 

OrangeKhrush

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the 700 and 900k struggling to deal with the mid level 5800X is underwhelming. iris on a 500 can't hold a candle to Renoir which also comes in 8 core variants. yikes.
 

chrcoluk

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Intel will come good again at some point, they been here before when they had pentium 4, inefficient high clock speed processors. Then they came good after that.
 

kirbyrj

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Intel will come good again at some point, they been here before when they had pentium 4, inefficient high clock speed processors. Then they came good after that.

Last time they didn't have the fab issues they have now though. They are in a deeper hole than they were last time.
 

Mega6

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Intel will come good again at some point, they been here before when they had pentium 4, inefficient high clock speed processors. Then they came good after that.
You can't compare Intel and the CPU market of the P4 days to now. Almost everything is different from the people, management, technology, competition and economics.
 

Shadowarez

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now if amd can just get more stock in or they build a fab in the states thatd be amazing. but wouldnt do much for bringing down the prices. just get some effing stock out there or use AI to stop bots. nvidia was heralded as worlds leader in AI computing why cant they fking stop script kiddies?
 

Mega6

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now if amd can just get more stock in or they build a fab in the states thatd be amazing. but wouldnt do much for bringing down the prices. just get some effing stock out there or use AI to stop bots. nvidia was heralded as worlds leader in AI computing why cant they fking stop script kiddies?
AMD doesn't own or build fabs. TSMC who fabs AMD chips does though and they are building a new fab in Arizona. Unfortunately, building a fab isn't like popping a tent so it will be a few years. It really isn't AMD or Nvidia's job to stop the bots. It is the vendors that sell the cards direct to consumer. Although AMD has a direct sale section, it hardly counts volume wise as compated to all the other sellers combined. Using AI to stop bots is ludicrous overkill to say the least. Get a grip and a clue.
 

Shadowarez

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well they need to do something or else this landscape will be like this going forward. like i get the demand but the greed is why we are the worst thing to happen to this world. im saying using AI would at least hopefully put people back in there place or at least curb it. i know fabs arent overnight affairs lol. there got have clean rooms engineers and skilled workers.

i just hate to see how this industry is being dominated and bent over taking a Huge 8===D
 

Mega6

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well they need to do something or else this landscape will be like this going forward. like i get the demand but the greed is why we are the worst thing to happen to this world. im saying using AI would at least hopefully put people back in there place or at least curb it. i know fabs arent overnight affairs lol. there got have clean rooms engineers and skilled workers.

i just hate to see how this industry is being dominated and bent over taking a Huge 8===D
You don't need "AI" to thwart bots, just a little extra coding effort on the websites. Bots will fill order forms out instantly, humans need time. A failry simple response time analysis will do the trick.

The market should fix itself slowly - between a slow vax rollout and increasing production, my guess 3Q21 to 1Q2022. Until then, it's pay massive scalper prices to play.
 
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Shadowarez

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so i basically effed myself bugger. i had 5 Titan X gpus in my hoard. but built systems and sold em for round the 2k mark, with 9900ks, illl just have to make due with my measly 1070ti for now then itll have to hold on till i can snag a upgrade. was hoping it'd be like using a rocket launcher on a mosquito by using AI to Thwart bots.

but maybe in 2022 etailers will have evolved enough to slow tide of bots buying up inventory like you said. better coding and being able to real time check if someone is buying gpus in milliseconds compared to legitimate users taking maybe 1-2 mins to go though process.
 
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