Are these low end 4k projectors ?

Discussion in 'Home Theater PCs & Equipment' started by ng4ever, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. ng4ever

    ng4ever Flaccid 4Evar

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    BenQ TK800, BenQ HT2550, and Optoma UHD50?

    If so would it be better to get mid range to high end 1080p projector instead ?
     
  2. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  3. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    calling them 4k is also a misnomer.

    If it can't individually display all 8 million pixels, it's not 4k in my opinion. It's like 1080i all over again :(
     
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  4. HeadRusch

    HeadRusch [H]ard|Gawd

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    You can't tell a thing looking at pictures, its all going to come down to your screen material and your ability to control the light in your room. The Contrast/Black levels you see will depend on your ceiling, your flooring, the colors of furniture in your room, lots of glass/mirrors versus flat paint and on and on and on :)

    So let's simplify it:
    If you can't get the room dark, don't waste your time with any projector.....a washed-out Projected image is not > a smaller, brighter TV image. But a light-controlled projector image is a sight to behold.

    I've stepped up through the DLP and LCD camps, now I won't waste my money on either tech, the only FP technology I'd bother with today is SXRD or LcOS, so Sony and JVC respectively, and up until recently input lag was a concern. $5 grand today, give it another 1-2 years and they will be in the $2000 range refurbished.

    Having said that....if you have never owned a projector before......the standard LCD "4K ish" (they mostly use pixel shifting to achieve more of a 2.5k resolution....they aren't true 4K panels at that price point)....will probably impress you. But I wouldn't trade my 1080p Sony at this point...which is why I haven't.
    I'm patiently waiting for Sony's 4K entries to hit the $2500 mark...probably refurbished....and then I'll buy in.
     
  5. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    getting close :)

    https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1946.0
     
  6. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    I have just given up on projectors after using one for years.
    No projector can do HDR like a TV, and TVs are improving further beyond reach!
    Projectors barely make rec709 (old school colour) let alone P3 and BT.2020, the lamps are nowhere near powerful enough.
    This gets worse as the lamp ages, it loses power causing near white to become white if you want to keep the brightness up, bleaching out detail.
    And black is only as black as the light in your room.
    Then there is the resolution problem as already pointed out, it is not UHD.

    My display now is a Samsung Q9FN, the image quality is incredible!
    No contest unfortunately.
     
  7. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You can get there with the quality

    It just costs more and requires a pitch black (no ambient light) room. Ideally black paint on walls and ceiling, no windows, no LEDs, dark carpet, truly pitch black because any ambient or reflected light shows up on the white projector screen and kills the contrast. I always tell people with a projector your blacks can be no deeper than what the white projector screen looks like in the room with the projector off. In most rooms that’s a poor starting point. Some of the new model projectors add so little ambient light to that it’s almost immaterial, but getting to that starting point is very difficult in most rooms.

    The contrast can be infinite in the sense of a laser projector and seemingly infinite in the case of a high end JVC LCOS projector, but this type of setup doesn’t come as cheap, nor as as unobtrusively as a TV. The picture on something like the $10k JVC RS 600 series will absolutely knock your socks off though in a proper room. You’ll lack nothing subjectively from even the high end TVs.

    FWIW, you’ll never see a projector truly shine in a high end show room, because they never have that level of light control. So if that’s your experience with projectors it isn’t a fair experience. For my part, I’ll tell you I’ve seen a JVC RS 600 in a blacked out room that looked as good or better on the black levels as any high end OLED screen I’ve ever seen, and it was on a 144” Cinema scope screen. > twice the size of a comparable priced OLED TV.

    Contrast that with the $35k 4k projector I saw in a standard home theater basement with no dark colors or painting to help the contrast — and that expensive projector subsequently looked worse than my $2500 projector in my “mostly” blacked out basement home theater room.

    As to BT2020 and P3 color standards. Check out the brand new BenQ HT9060. It’s the closest we have currently in the realm of a mere mortals budget - from what I’ve read anyway. Getting much better than that triples the budget, or more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  8. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Yes, as you say, it requires high end laser to get full quality for SDR.
    HDR though looks to be a no show for projectors, none I have read about can compete because they cannot get close to the full P3 spectrum (no need to talk about BT.2020) and quality throughout the HDR brightness range (high colour volume).

    You make a very good point about ideally needing black walls.
    My walls are dark wood which made my projector experience almost as good as it can be.
    Without that the light from the projector itself reflects off the walls etc back on to the screen, reducing the contrast ratio substantially.


    The biggest problem I have with laser projectors is once the laser has run out it is dead.
    There are no replacement lasers.

    A major issue with UHD projectors is display lag for gaming.
    Very few are good enough and even then that is only for casual gamers.
    1080p pjs it was easy to find low lag examples, not UHD though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  9. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    Lamps aren't bright enough, and contrast still can't get there. they can display HDR sure, but none will ever be certified.
     
  10. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Yeah its unfortunate.
    HDR is translated mostly to SDR with a consequently dimmer general image except for the highlights in HDR mode, that is all they can do to try and maintain the contrast difference.
    Only one pj that I know of, the $60K+ Sony VW5000ES SXRD laser, has enough oomph to do it justice and needs up to 1200W!
    But being a laser the light source isnt replaceable making it a poor long term investment even if you have the $.
    And when its that good you will want to use it a lot.
    Its a sad paradox.
     
  11. Blue Fox

    Blue Fox [H]ardForum Junkie

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    There are cheaper laser units (even from Sony). As for the laser unit not being replaceable, that's really not an issue. If you wind up using it 4 hours every single day (which I doubt you will), it will last ~14 years. The unit will be obsolete by then anyway. If that doesn't feel like a long time, a good example is that if we go back 14 years, multi-core CPUs weren't a thing and the top end was a Pentium 4 or Athlon 64.
     
  12. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    My last pj received close to 12K hours use in 3 years, it was the TV and gaming display.
    Which of those cheaper units are good enough to replace my Samsung Q9FN?
    Let us know which can compete with HDR TVs on light power, HDR spectrum, UHD pixel quality and lag.
    If you get that far we can look at price.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  13. Blue Fox

    Blue Fox [H]ardForum Junkie

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    12,000 hours in 3 years means ~11 hours a day. I would say that is way above the norm.

    A Sony VPL-VW885ES or VPL-VW995ES will put out more light overall than say a high end 75" TV last I checked. The TV will get brighter, but you have to remember that the projector is spreading that across a much larger area.

    I'm not sure when the last time you saw a high end projector was, but in my semi-light controlled setup, I have to turn down the brightness considerably on mine (older Sony ES) or else it's too much.

    If you want something above 100", then you won't be disappointed as few TVs are made that large (and then tend to cost even more than a high end projector).
     
  14. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Those are impressive but a lot of money for only 20K hours, $25 to 35K.
    And resale value will drop vastly.

    ps HDR brightness is not the same as average brightness.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  15. drutman

    drutman n00b

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    You get what you pay for, look at Christie or Runco for a projector.
     
  16. Blue Fox

    Blue Fox [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Screen size does matter? Lumens are a measure of the total light output. With TVs, as screen size increases, generally lumens do too. Samsung doesn't seem to list anything regarding brightness specifications.

    Regarding spectrum, I couldn't get a percentage for BT.2020, but it's just short of 100%. There is 100% coverage of P3 contrary to what you said (per Sony's whitepaper). Looks like in testing, your Samsung has under 80% BT.2020 and not quite 100% P3. Seems your TV is lagging here actually.

    Pixel quality? That's very subjective? I'm not able to see any gaps on mine even at 1080p.

    Input lag is rated at 27ms in 4K HDR mode. Your Samsung is does 22.4ms per testing, so no noticeable difference.
     
  17. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Screen size is not relevant on a pj because it outputs the same amount of light no matter the size.
    My TV is specced at 2000nits and gets around 1800nits in testing (although it 'can' do over 2500nits in a mode you wouldnt use).
    I'm interested what the pjs got under test.

    I initially thought you had posted about lesser pjs so edited my post to remove the question you answered, my bad.
    The pixel quality was in case any of the pjs were not native 4K, clearly the pjs you chose are very good but...
    While those are indeed great pjs they are way too expensive, being 5x to 7x the price of the 75" TV and only 20k hrs life.
    If it had 60K hrs life I might grit my teeth and get one (assuming the lag is low enough), but 20K hrs is terribly low.
    I think 5 years or more are needed to bring high quality UHD pjs down to near sensible prices and get the lamp life up.
    In the meantime, there is no competition for HDR TVs.
     
  18. Blue Fox

    Blue Fox [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I meant that screen size is relevant to TVs when it comes to light output.

    I think 20,000 hours is far more than anyone in the market for one of those will use. Your daily 11 hour use is not the norm (even for a TV I'd say). Honestly I'm lucky if I find time to use my projector 10 hours a week. Anything that expensive is going to wind up in an actual theatre room and not out in the living room anyway.

    We're generally not the target audience anyway. Most people are best suited for a TV and well, once you get past a certain size, you have no choice but to get a projector. I'll upgrade once I can get one on eBay for under $10k.
     
  19. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    I'm not the only one using the projector, I fancy many people have their TV on for 12hrs a day, sometimes longer.
    Mine has seen use for 18hrs/day at times.

    The post you initially responded to was the final of earlier posts describing why I now use a TV after years of pj, and find it exceptional.
    I want a very good HDR experience without breaking the bank, only a few costly pjs can do this.
    Despite the screen being smaller, the experience is so much better for even HDR material that I am happy. (edit, oops I meant SDR)
    I appreciate your mentioning those 2 projectors but they are very expensive and low on hrs.
    Either is a big problem, I cannot possibly consider them.
    It will be many years before a pj will be in the right price range for the same quality+life and they may be fighting against modular TVs at the same screen size.
    tbh, I dont expect projectors to win this within 10 years.

    Other considerations with high output pjs is power consumption and heat.
    In the UK very few houses have AC, mine doesnt.
    If it did and I had a high output pj, the power bill would be daft!
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  20. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This thread got weird.

    You know most LCD TVs have a daring of 20,000 hours too, and on a laser projector the laser is rated 20,000 hours until half it’s original light output. Not death of the laser. It’ll just keep getting dimmer over time.

    And YES screen size of projected image matters for brightness. A LOT actually. More light obviously on a smaller image.
     
  21. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Do you have a source?

    We were talking overall lumens/nits only.
     
  22. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I stand corrected. That 20000 figure is quite old info. Sadly probably the last time I looked it up, when LCD tech started hitting mainstream ;).

    Looks like they last 60,000-100,000 hours now days!
     
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  23. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    projectors belong in a theater to be viewed in the best way possible. As such, how often do people with theaters have time to watch a movie. My last Sony I put like 200 hours on it in two years before I moved and tore the theater down.
     
  24. ng4ever

    ng4ever Flaccid 4Evar

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    Thanks this has helped a lot everyone!