Apple's Work Force Is Mostly White And Male

[pigster]

What we're saying is, representation is nowhere near what the population is; while it will likely never be exactly proportional, nor should it, it is indicative of the vast problems we still have in equality of opportunity.

Is it? Or is it carping about equality of outcome?

 

[heatlesssun]

Is it? Or is it carping about equality of outcome?

Or is it about outcomes that are relatively free from the impacts of centuries of institutionalized and systemic bigotry?

 

[Phoenix333]

Of Apple's 98,000 employees around the globe, including those in non-technical positions and those working at Apple Stores, 70 percent are male, the company said. Only 28 percent of Apple's global leadership team is female, and when it comes to tech positions, only 20 percent of Apple's worldwide workers are female.

And I should care about this because...?

 

[WBurchnall]

Can you cite any actual research to support this?

Would you support citation of a documentary made in Norway voted the most progressive country in the European union in 2013 due to the largest number of female politics, best working conditions for women, feminist utopia, etc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTOFXLl7eh4

The documentary basically covers:
Gender studies research
Sociology Research
Early Childhood Development Research
Sexual organ/hormone malformation at birth (read hermapodite or both genitals) research
Pre-Natal biology research (from Cambridge universitiy, nobel prize winning biologist)
Bio-psych research
and finally back to Gender Studies for balance.

 

[WBurchnall]

If it's biological then that means every woman who is in the computer industry is just some sort of fluke?

This is a fallacy. Something can be biological as a trend -- but that does not prevent people from being far above that trend or far below that trend. Outliers will always exist. Research shows that women with high testosterone levels during gestation in their mother's womb excell at engineer, stem, etc and show more interest in traditionally 'male' interests. So does hormonal conditions resulting in excess testosterone in a women's body. Most men interested in female interests, tend to have less testosterone than the average male.

It correlates very well though correlation does not imply causation. It does make you wonder though what other factors might explain changes in hormones = changes in masculinity vs femininity.

This information is covered in the BBC documentary Secrets of the Sexes available on youtube ...or was it Battle of the sexes? Anyways, on youtube.

 

[VladDracule]

I daresay a fair part of this is education infrastructure. I volunteer time with a Local Elementary-High School Music program teaching violin, and I also volunteered through the Eta Kappa Nu chapter of my University while taking some business classes at a mid school working with at risk kids. Ive spent time at different schools than the ones i volunteer at and it is ASTOUNDING how different they are. The two schools i worked with were primarily immigrant familes, more than likely the majority had illegal parents but most of the kids had citizenship or green card.

The schools in districts that were primarily white families, had significantly better facilities, and better teachers from what i experienced.

The kids i worked with were eager to learn, they wanted to learn but everything was stacked against them. The young hispanic girls came from families where they just werent expected to go to college, they were expected to stay home and take care of the home for the rest of the family. Not only that but there is no way in hell they could afford college, even with scholarships and grants its just not possible for them.

 

[jimmyb]

Would you support citation of a documentary

I am interested in peer reviewed research; not youtube videos. I have access to all the major journals. (ie. actual science)

Please also note, as many others have, that it is well established that biological development is affected by environmental conditions. I am questioning the claim that differences which disqualify a significantly disproportionate number of women are inherent, rather than environmentally influenced.

 

[SGA76]

Its funny how minorities only piss and moan they're not fairly represented in certain fields but you never hear those same minorites complain there's a lack on men in the WNBA, or a lack of whites in the NBA or NFL.

 

[kbrickley]

This is a fallacy. Something can be biological as a trend -- but that does not prevent people from being far above that trend or far below that trend. Outliers will always exist. Research shows that women with high testosterone levels during gestation in their mother's womb excell at engineer, stem, etc and show more interest in traditionally 'male' interests. So does hormonal conditions resulting in excess testosterone in a women's body. Most men interested in female interests, tend to have less testosterone than the average male.

It correlates very well though correlation does not imply causation. It does make you wonder though what other factors might explain changes in hormones = changes in masculinity vs femininity.

This information is covered in the BBC documentary Secrets of the Sexes available on youtube ...or was it Battle of the sexes? Anyways, on youtube.

I am just not sanguine about tying being an engineer to testosterone ... 95% of the world population is inferior and incapable of being an engineer or scientist (that is why we have other jobs ... anybody can be a plumber ... only the elite can be scientists) ... the 5% or so that have the proper mental capabilities and backgrounds can be from any race, creed, or gender ... it might favor males because we encourage males in this 5% and discourage females ... it also means we allow too many of the inferior males to join the ranks of engineers (to make up the difference) ... we should be a meritocracy ... the best of the best become our engineers and scientists (and no one else), regardless of their race or gender ... we should also encourage all of these elite individuals to take the proper career that their talents and genetics offer them (and not settle for lesser careers)

 

[cjcox]

Same survey showed a huge skew with females dominating the whole mother workspace. More stuff I guess we need to fix.

 

[WBurchnall]

i was thinking about that too... but I don't think i wana know.

so what are the other 2 percent?

Exactly what I was thinking! WTH? 2% are what, aliens, or animals perhaps?

"Of Apple's 98,000 employees ... 70 percent are male," and "Only 28 percent of Apple's global leadership team is female".

The leadership team is a segment of the whole and looking at only about 100 of those 98,000 employees of whom 28 of those 100 or so are female. The 70% male refers to all employees. The 28% only refers to just leadership (CEO, VP, Executives, etc). I'm really pulling that 100 or so leadership positions number out of my arse though. There could be way more or less. We just know the % women is 28 out of however many they are. I used 100 for easily explainable statistics.

Its funny how minorities only piss and moan they're not fairly represented in certain fields but you never hear those same minorites complain there's a lack on men in the WNBA, or a lack of whites in the NBA or NFL.

Yes, similarly, women never want male jobs that are deemed undesirable yet want CEO jobs. Women largely are comfortably in the middle/average with very few homeless comparatively, few garbage collectors, fewer working in jobs that expose people to environmental hazards, few coal miners, etc. Men have a large spread and a few men occupy the majority of the top while many many more men also occupy the vast majority of the bottom most rung. It's a little disturbing how one can be living comfortable, average life and feel ungrateful, unhappy, like a victim that they don't have more stuff and blame all men for being so privileged while stepping around the poor homeless man on the street corner.

 

[jimmyb]

Yes, similarly, women never want male jobs that are deemed undesirable

Nobody wants jobs that are undesirable. That is why they are called undesirable.

 

[Stiletto]

I am interested in peer reviewed research

lol

 

[WBurchnall]

I am interested in peer reviewed research; not youtube videos. I have access to all the major journals. (ie. actual science)

The research covered in the video is peer reviewed, includes a Nobel prize winner and researchers from the universities in England(prestigious). Look up the names of the people interviewed and search their names in your major journals to find their years upon years of research they each have made.

Please also note, as many others have, that it is well established that biological development is affected by environmental conditions.

Yes, that's true. I fed my dog food for an elephant and tied him to a post like they do to elephants when young to convince him that when tied, no matter how big he grew, he'd never be able to escape.

The dog tied thru the rope and never grew up into a fully grown elephant's size, shape, color, mannerism or had an elephant brain. I'm going to try this experiment again. I believe my dog not becoming a elephant was not inherent biological differences but merely I had the wrong environmental conditions. Perhaps more heat is needed. Thailand and India known for its elephants are warm climates. I'll try doing the experiment in a warmer climate. Perhaps Canada was too cold.

I am questioning the claim that differences which disqualify a significantly disproportionate number of women are inherent, rather than environmentally influenced.

What drives you to question this? What are your personal motives? Do you value your personal ideology whatever that may be or feminist ideology over theories made from observable results obtained through scientific method? I hope as a reasonably intelligent person, you realize Gender studies rarely does 'good' research as far as methodology for gathering information, misleading questions, etc.

 

[shade91]

It is shameful that people actually care about this.

 

[canon.tk]

The stereotypical NERD is WHITE and MALE. We are oppressing women and minorities from being nerds.

Better fight for equal rights!

 

[WBurchnall]

Nobody wants jobs that are undesirable. That is why they are called undesirable.

I hope you read the rest of the paragraph that was the main point rather than a snippit. My hopes are low at this point having read a lot of your replies in this thread. One person early on provided you with evidence that boys develop math skills at 4 years earlier than girls when neuro-plasticity is at its maximum allowing when exposed to math for their minds to grow significantly more than a girls.

Apparently, you were unable to see how this could potentially correlate at all to the higher number of men in stem fields. A greater natural aptitude for boys would explain why more boys would prefer stem. Men and women tend to enjoy doing things we excel at vs things we find excessively difficult, boring or unpleasant. It may seem obtuse or obvious to say this though this connection appeared to have escaped you earlier in the thread several times till the person you were discussing it with gave up.

 

[WBurchnall]

I daresay a fair part of this is education infrastructure.

The kids i worked with were eager to learn, they wanted to learn but everything was stacked against them. The young hispanic girls came from families where they just werent expected to go to college, they were expected to stay home and take care of the home for the rest of the family. Not only that but there is no way in hell they could afford college, even with scholarships and grants its just not possible for them.

I agree that education for profit in the US is a terrible state of education. Post secondary education burdens students with way too much debt and way to few job opportunities. Graduates living at home with their parents because they cannot find work is sickening to me.

Two counterpoints, though. Sorry to bring this up. You mention hispanic girls and talk about social expectations. That's fine.

You then state "Not only that but there is no way in hell they could afford college, even with scholarships and grants its just not possible for them." -- Would this not effect Hispanic males as well. If a family does not have money for education, a family does not have money for education regardless of the makeup of how many children or what sexes the children are. A poor family is a poor family.

Ironically, there are women only scholarships available to specifically help women that a Hispanic male would be unable to apply for. Even as more women are entering university than men, women only scholarships still exist. There are no male only scholarships to help out the Hispanic male. They could both apply to Latino/Hispanic-only scholarships but ultimately, the women will have more scholarship opportunities.

 

[WBurchnall]

I am interested in peer reviewed research; not youtube videos. I have access to all the major journals. (ie. actual science)

Great.

Books: authored
Campbell, A. (2013). A mind of her own: The evolutionary psychology of women (2nd ed.). Oxofrd University Press.
Campbell, A. (2002). A mind of her own: The evolutionary psychology of women. Oxford: Oxford University Press. (Second Edition due 2012).
Campbell, A. (1993). Men, women and aggression. New York / London: Basic Books / Harpercollins.
Campbell, A. (1986). The girls in the gang. New York & Oxford: Blackwell.
Books: edited
(1998). The social child. Hove: Psychology Press.
Campbell, A. & Gibbs, J. (1986). Violent Transactions: The Limits of Personality. Oxford and New York: Basil Blackwell.
Books: sections
Cross, C. & Campbell, A. (2013). Violence and aggression in women. In The Evolution of Violence. Shackelford, T.K. & Hansen, R.D. Springer.
Cross, C. & Campbell, A. (2012). Women and aggression. In The Oxford Handbook of Evolutionary Perspectives on Violence, Homicide, and War. Shackelford, T. & Weekes-Shackelford, V. Oxford University Press.
Campbell, A. (2008). Gender and crime: An evolutionary perspective. In Criminology and biology: The biosocial synthesis. Walsh, A. and Beaver, K.M. New York: Routledge.
Campbell, A. (2007). Sex differences in aggression. In Oxford Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology. Dunbar, L. & Barrett, L. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Campbell, A. (2005). Aggression. In Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology. Buss, D. New York: John Wiley. 628-652.
Campbell, A. (2005). Feminism and evolutionary psychology. In Missing the revolution: Darwinism for the social sciences. Barkow, J. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 63-99.
Journal papers: academic
Campbell, A. & Hausmann, M. (2013). Effects of oxytocin on women’s aggression depend on state anxiety. Aggressive Behavior 39(4): 316-322.
Santiago-Menendez, M. & Campbell, A. (2013). Sadness and anger: Boys, girls and crying in adolescence. Psychology of Men and Masculinity
Cross, C.P. & Campbell, A. (2012). The effects of intimacy and target sex on direct aggression: Further evidence. Aggressive Behaviour 38: 272-280.
Campbell, A. (2012). The study of sex differences: Feminism and biology. Journal of Psychology 220: 137-143.
Cross, C.P., Tee, W. & Campbell, A. (2011). Gender symmetry in intimate aggression: An effect of intimacy or target sex?. Aggressive Behavior 37(3): 268-277.
Campbell, A. (2011). Ladies, choose your weapons. The Evolutionary Review 2: 106-112.
Cross, C., Copping, L. & Campbell, A. (2011). Sex differences in impulsivity: A meta-analysis. Psychological Bulletin 137(1): 97-130.
Cross, C. & Campbell, A. (2011). Women’s aggression. Aggression and Violent Behavior 16: 390-398.
Campbell, A. (2010). Oxytocin and human social behaviour. Personality and Social Psychology Review 14(3): 281-295.
Campbell, A. & Muncer.S. (2009). Can ‘risky’ impulsivity explain sex differences in aggression? Personality and Individual Differences 47: 402-406.
Campbell, A. (2009). Fatal attraction syndrome: Not a good way to keep your man. (Commentary). Behavioral and Brain Sciences 32: 24-5.
Campbell, A. (2009). What kind of selection? (Commentary). Behavioral and Brain Sciences 32: 272-3.
Campbell, A. (2008). Attachment, aggression and affiliation: The role of oxytocin in female social behaviour. Biological Psychology 77(1): 1-10.
Campbell, A. (2008). The morning after the night before: Affective reactions to one-night stands among mated and unmated women and men. Human Nature 19(2): 157-173.
Tester, N & Campbell, A. (2007). Digit ratio and sporting prowess: What are the psychological mediators? Journal of Personality 75: 663-678.
Campbell, A. & Muncer, S. (2007). An intent to harm or injure? Gender and the expression of anger. Aggressive Behavior 33,: 1-12.
Campbell, A. (2007). Personality: Does selection see it? (Commentary). European Journal of Personality 21: 591-593.
Campbell, A. (2006). Sex differences in direct aggression: What are the psychological mediators?. Aggression and Violent Behavior 11(3): 237-264.
Driscoll, H., Zinkivskay, A., Evans, K. & Campbell, A. (2006). Sex differences in social representations of aggression: The phenomenological experience of differences in inhibitory control? British Journal of Psychology 97(139-153).
Driscoll, H., Campbell, A. & Muncer. S. (2005). Confirming the structure of a 10 item Expagg scale using confirmatory factor analysis. Current Research in Social Psychology 10: 1-12.
Alexander, F., Allen, C., Brooks, J., Cole, C. & Campbell, A. (2004). Reason to believe: Representations of aggression as phenomenological read-out. Sex Roles 51: 647-659.
Campbell, A., Shirley, L. & Candy, J. (2004). A longitudinal study of gender-related cognition and behaviour. Developmental Science 7(1): 1-9.
(2004). Confirmatory factor analysis and the factor structure of Expagg: Reply to Forest et al. Aggresive Behavior 30: 146-157.
Campbell, A. (2004). Female competition: Causes, constraints, content and contexts. Journal of Sex Research 41: 6-26.
Campbell, A. (2004). Words, words, words: Commentary on Korobov and Bamberg. British Journal of Developmental Psychology 22: 509-514.
(2003). A defence of evolutionary psychology: Reply to Gannon. Psychology, Evolution and Gender 4: 265-281.
Campbell, A. (2003). A defence of evolutionary psychology: Reply to Gannon. Psychology, Evolution and Gender 4: 265-281.
(2003). Sex differences in social representations of aggression: Men justify, women excuse? Aggressive Behavior 29: 128-133.
Campbell, A., Shirley, L. & Cargill, L. (2002). Sex-typed preferences in three domains: Do 2-year-olds need cognitive variables? British Journal of Psychology 93: 203-217.
Muncer, S., Campbell, A., Jervis, V. & Lewis, R. (2001). 'Ladettes', social representations and aggression. Sex Roles 44: 33-44.
Campbell. A., Muncer, S. & Bibel, D. (2001) (2001). Women and crime: An evolutionary feminist approach. Aggression and Violent Behavior 6: 481-497.
Campbell, A. (2001). X and Y: It's a jungle out there. Psychology, Evolution and Gender 3: 191-196.
Campbell, A. (2001). X and Y: It's a jungle out there. Psychology, Evolution and Gender 3: 191-196.
Campbell, A, Shirley, L., Heywood, C. & Crook, C. (2000). Infants’ visual preference for sex congruent babies, children, toys and activities: A longitudinal study. British Journal of Developmental Psychology 18: 479-498.
Campbell, A. (2000). Putting people before parasites and places. (Commentary). Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23: 596-7.
Shirley, L. & Campbell, A. (2000). Same-sex preference in infancy: Visual preference for sex-congruent stimuli at three months. Psychology, Evolution and Gender 2: 3-18.
Campbell, A., Muncer, S., McManus.I. & Woodhouse, D. (1999). Instrumental and expressive representations of aggression: One scale or two? Aggressive Behavior 25: 435-444.
Campbell, A. (1999). Staying alive: Evolution, culture and women's intra-sexual aggression. Behavioural and Brain Sciences 22(2): 203-252.
Campbell, A., Muncer, S. & Bibel, D. (1998). Female-female criminal assault: An evolutionary perspective. Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 35: 413-428.
Campbell, A., Muncer, S. & Odber, J. (1998). The primacy of organising effects of testosterone. (Commentary). Behavioral and Brain Sciences 21: 365.
Campbell, A., Muncer, S. & Odber, J. (1997). Aggression and testosterone: Testing a bio-social model. Aggressive Behavior 23: 229-238.
Campbell, A., Sapochnik, M. & Muncer, S. (1997). Sex differences in aggression: Does social representation mediate form of aggression? British Journal of Social Psychology 36: 161-171.
Campbell, A., Muncer, S., Guy, A. & Banim, M. (1996). Social representations of aggression: Crossing the sex barrier. European Journal of Social Psychology 26: 135-147.
Campbell, A. (1995). A few good men: The evolutionary psychology of female adolescent aggression. Ethology and Sociobiology 16: 99-123.
Campbell, A. (1995). Representations, repertoires and power: Mother-child conflict. Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour 25: 35-38.
Campbell, A. (1995). Sociopathy or hyper-masculinity? (Commentary). Behavioural and Brain Sciences 18: 548-9.
Campbell, A & Muncer, S. (1994). Sex differences in aggression: Social roles and social representations. British Journal of Social Psychology 33: 233-240.
Campbell, A, Muncer, S & Gorman, B. (1993). Sex and social representations of aggression: A communal-agentic analysis. Aggressive Behaviour 19: 125-135.
Campbell A, Muncer S. & Coyle E. (1992). Social representations of aggression as an explanation of gender differences: A preliminary study. Aggressive Behaviour 18: 1-14.
Campbell, A., Gorman, B & Muncer, S. (1990). Dimensions of aggression: A replication with offenders. Aggressive Behaviour 16: 33-39.
Campbell, A. (1990). On the invisibility of the female delinquent peer group. Women and Criminal Justice 2: 41-62.
Campbell, A & Muncer, S. (1989). Them and us: A comparison of the cultural context of American gangs and British subcultures. Deviant Behaviour 10: 271-288.
Campbell, A. (1988). Intrapersonal and interpersonal discrepancy among delinquent and nondelinquent girls. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 29: 73-78.
Campbell, A., Muncer, S. & Bibel, D. (1987). For disaggregation: A reply to Rushton and Erdle. British Journal of Social Psychology 26: 90-92.
Campbell, A. & Muncer, S. (1987). Models of anger and aggression in the social talk of women and men. Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour 17: 489-512.
Campbell, A. (1987). Self-definition by rejection: The case of gang girls. Social Problems 34: 4510466.
Campbell, A. (1987). Self-reported delinquency and home life: Evidence from a sample of British girls. Journal of Youth and Adolescence 16: 165-175.
Campbell, A. (1986). Self-report of fighting by females. British Journal of Criminology 26: 28-46.
Campbell, A., Bibel, D. & Muncer, S. (1985). Predicting our own aggression: Personality, subculture or situation? British Journal of Social Psychology 24: 169-180.
Campbell, A. (1984). Girls' talk: The social representation of aggression by female gang members. Criminal Justice and Behaviour 11: 139-156.
Journal papers: professional
Campbell, A. (2001). Adapted? Adaptive? Useful? The Psychologist 14: 426-427.

 

[jimmyb]

The research covered in the video is peer reviewed, includes a Nobel prize winner and researchers from the universities in England(prestigious).

Youtube videos are not considered legitimate sources for peer reviewed information. Furthermore the video focuses on environmental differences rather than inherent. Please feel free to point me to actual research. As I mentioned, I have access to all the major journals.

...dog...

We aren't talking about dogs. You comment here is irrelevant to the question of whether STEM specific skills discrepancies are inherent vs environmentally influenced.

What drives you to question this?

I don't like speculative or pseudo-science. If people are going to insist that the skill discrepancies are significantly inherent I am going to ask for actual evidence. I would have the same skepticism for any other pseudo-scientific claim.

 

[jimmyb]

Great.

Books: authored
Campbell, A. (2013). A mind of her own: The evolutionary psychology of women (2nd ed.). Oxofrd University Press.
Campbell, A. (2002). A mind of her own: The evolutionary psychology of women. Oxford: Oxford University Press. (Second Edition due 2012).
Campbell, A. (1993). Men, women and aggression. New York / London: Basic Books / Harpercollins.

I have read all of those and they don't support your claim.

 

[WBurchnall]

I have read all of those and they don't support your claim.

They do though it's ok to discreet one researchers work based of your personal interpretation that it plays no role similar to how you reacted earlier in this thread to information opposite to your beliefs. Let's try another one several researchers, shall we? I guess their research suggesting sex differences in the brains of women and men will be negligible to human potential even when that's being studied by following children from gestation to maturation and onward and comparing hormones, brain development and how hormones effected the brain development and the way that shows up in development very consistently across autistic, non-autistic, transexuals, non-transexuals, people with Asperger syndrome or not, as boys and girls, adults, minorities and majorities.

Baron-Cohen S, Knickmeyer RC, Belmonte MK (2005), “Sex differences in the brain: implications for explaining autism.” Science 310(5749):819-23 Details

Lai MC, Lombardo MV, Suckling J, Ruigrok AN, Chakrabarti B, Ecker C, Deoni SC, Craig MC, Murphy DG, Bullmore ET, MRC AIMS Consortium, Baron-Cohen S (2013), “Biological sex affects the neurobiology of autism.” Brain 136(Pt 9):2799-815 Details

Baron-Cohen S, Cassidy S, Auyeung B, Allison C, Achoukhi M, Robertson S, Pohl A, Lai MC (2014), “Attenuation of Typical Sex Differences in 800 Adults with Autism vs. 3,900 Controls.” PLoS One 9(7):e102251 Details

Ruigrok AN, Salimi-Khorshidi G, Lai MC, Baron-Cohen S, Lombardo MV, Tait RJ, Suckling J (2014), “A meta-analysis of sex differences in human brain structure.” Neurosci Biobehav Rev 39:34-50 Details

Steeb H, Ramsey JM, Guest PC, Stocki P, Cooper JD, Rahmoune H, Ingudomnukul E, Auyeung B, Ruta L, Baron-Cohen S, Bahn S (2014), “Serum proteomic analysis identifies sex-specific differences in lipid metabolism and inflammation profiles in adults diagnosed with Asperger syndrome.” Mol Autism 5(1):4 Details

Sun X, Allison C, Auyeung B, Matthews FE, Sharp SJ, Baron-Cohen S, Brayne C (2014), “The Mandarin Childhood Autism Spectrum Test (CAST): Sex Differences.” J Autism Dev Disord Details

Jones RM, Wheelwright S, Farrell K, Martin E, Green R, Di Ceglie D, Baron-Cohen S (2012), “Brief report: female-to-male transsexual people and autistic traits.” J Autism Dev Disord 42(2):301-6 Details

Auyeung B, Ahluwalia J, Thomson L, Taylor K, Hackett G, O'Donnell KJ, Baron-Cohen S (2012), “Prenatal versus postnatal sex steroid hormone effects on autistic traits in children at 18 to 24 months of age.” Mol Autism 3(1):17 Details

Auyeung B, Knickmeyer R, Ashwin E, Taylor K, Hackett G, Baron-Cohen S (2012), “Effects of fetal testosterone on visuospatial ability.” Arch Sex Behav 41(3):571-81 Details

Beacher FD, Minati L, Baron-Cohen S, Lombardo MV, Lai MC, Gray MA, Harrison NA, Critchley HD (2012), “Autism attenuates sex differences in brain structure: a combined voxel-based morphometry and diffusion tensor imaging study.” AJNR Am J Neuroradiol 33(1):83-9 Details

Beacher FD, Radulescu E, Minati L, Baron-Cohen S, Lombardo MV, Lai MC, Walker A, Howard D, Gray MA, Harrison NA, Critchley HD (2012), “Sex Differences and Autism: Brain Function during Verbal Fluency and Mental Rotation.” PLoS One 7(6):e38355 Details

Jones RM, Wheelwright S, Farrell K, Martin E, Green R, Di Ceglie D, Baron-Cohen S (2012), “Brief report: female-to-male transsexual people and autistic traits.” J Autism Dev Disord 42(2):301-6 Details

Lombardo MV, Ashwin E, Auyeung B, Chakrabarti B, Taylor K, Hackett G, Bullmore ET, Baron-Cohen S (2012), “Fetal testosterone influences sexually dimorphic gray matter in the human brain.” J Neurosci 32(2):674-80 Details

Ramsey JM, Schwarz E, Guest PC, van Beveren NJ, Leweke FM, Rothermundt M, Bogerts B, Steiner J, Ruta L, Baron-Cohen S, Bahn S (2012), “Molecular sex differences in human serum.” PLoS One 7(12):e51504 Details

Schwarz E, Guest PC, Rahmoune H, Wang L, Levin Y, Ingudomnukul E, Ruta L, Kent L, Spain M, Baron-Cohen S, Bahn S (2010), “Sex-specific serum biomarker patterns in adults with Asperger's syndrome.” Mol Psychiatry Details

Auyeung B, Baron-Cohen S, Ashwin E, Knickmeyer R, Taylor K, Hackett G, Hines M (2009), “Fetal testosterone predicts sexually differentiated childhood behavior in girls and in boys.” Psychol Sci 20(2):144-8 Details

Auyeung B, Wheelwright S, Allison C, Atkinson M, Samarawickrema N, Baron-Cohen S (2009), “The children's Empathy Quotient and Systemizing Quotient: sex differences in typical development and in autism spectrum conditions.” J Autism Dev Disord 39(11):1509-21 Details

Chakrabarti B, Dudbridge F, Kent L, Wheelwright S, Hill-Cawthorne G, Allison C, Banerjee-Basu S, Baron-Cohen S (2009), “Genes related to sex steroids, neural growth, and social-emotional behavior are associated with autistic traits, empathy, and Asperger syndrome.” Autism Res 2(3):157-77 Details

Knickmeyer RC, Wheelwright S, Baron-Cohen SB (2008), “Sex-typical play: masculinization/defeminization in girls with an autism spectrum condition.” J Autism Dev Disord 38(6):1028-35 Details

Christine Knickmeyer R, Baron-Cohen S (2006), “Fetal testosterone and sex differences.” Early Hum Dev 82(12):755-60 Details


Knickmeyer RC, Baron-Cohen S (2006), “Fetal testosterone and sex differences in typical social development and in autism.” J Child Neurol 21(10):825-45 Details

Baron-Cohen S, Wheelwright S (2004), “The empathy quotient: an investigation of adults with Asperger syndrome or high functioning autism, and normal sex differences.” J Autism Dev Disord 34(2):163-75 Details

Baron-Cohen S, Richler J, Bisarya D, Gurunathan N, Wheelwright S (2003), “The systemizing quotient: an investigation of adults with Asperger syndrome or high-functioning autism, and normal sex differences.” Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 358(1430):361-74 Details

Baron-Cohen S, Wheelwright S (2003), “The Friendship Questionnaire: an investigation of adults with Asperger syndrome or high-functioning autism, and normal sex differences.” J Autism Dev Disord 33(5):509-17 Details

 

[Red Falcon]

Shocking. Go to most tech places and it'll be the same thing. Women just don't gravitate towards the tech world like guys do. It's mainly a factor of "boys and their toys". Just the same as why are most car sales people men. Why are most auto mechanics men? Why are most of the people in gun stores men?

It's not a deep rooted conspiracy to deprive women and minorities of work, it's because they are all fields that white men gravitate towards. Just like how women gravitate more towards the services type jobs like nurses or teaching ect. It's biological. Not socialogical.

What sorcery is this?
How dare you bring logic and reasoning to this agenda-ridden article!

 

[m heisty]

Come on white male upper middle class people, the president is obviously doing a great job.

 

[WBurchnall]

Youtube videos are not considered legitimate sources for peer reviewed information. Furthermore the video focuses on environmental differences rather than inherent. Please feel free to point me to actual research. As I mentioned, I have access to all the major journals./QUOTE]

I never said they were legitimate sources for peer reviewed information. I mentioned that the youtube video contains interviews with professors from prestigious universities whom have published hundreds of journal articles in peer reviewed articles summarizing their research in their own words. Professors that have created peer reviewed information and you could search any of of their names in google to find a complete list of said research.

I don't like speculative or pseudo-science. If people are going to insist that the skill discrepancies are significantly inherent I am going to ask for actual evidence. I would have the same skepticism for any other pseudo-scientific claim.

I don't like psuedo-science either which is why I'm personally against homeopathy, foot reflexology and most forms of alternative medicine. That being said, now when someone provides hundreds of journal articles by countless different authors -- what is your reason for discrediting all the author's work on sight and refusing to consider new views? Many people have given you research and all you seem to discredit.

 

[jimmyb]

They do though it's ok to discreet one researchers work based of your personal interpretation that it plays no role similar to how you reacted earlier in this thread to information opposite to your beliefs. Let's try another one several researchers, shall we?

None of those papers support the claim that STEM skill discrepancies are inherently biological. Simply posting a bunch of links isn't sufficient; they actually have to support your position.

Can you post a single piece of research which concludes that STEM skill discrepancies are inherently biological? That is the claim being made.

 

[jimmyb]

That being said, now when someone provides hundreds of journal articles by countless different authors -- what is your reason for discrediting all the author's work on sight and refusing to consider new views?

I have not discredited the authors work. I have pointed out that none of links you've provided come to the conclusion that the skill based discrepancies in STEM fields is inherently biological. It's not sufficient to simply dump an enormous number of links; they actually need to support the claim.

 

[WBurchnall]

None of those papers support the claim that STEM skill discrepancies are inherently biological. Simply posting a bunch of links isn't sufficient; they actually have to support your position.

Can you post a single piece of research which concludes that STEM skill discrepancies are inherently biological? That is the claim being made.

Look at the bold titles that suggest that fetal testosterone levels effect childhood development, that hormones effect development of gray matter and the countless other changes that occur in a brain's ability to reason, process emotions, facts and then try to provide any evidence that childhood development, gray matter development, spatial abilities and other factors does not effect adult development. At this point, I'd say the onus is on you as I've provided a mountain of information and you've provided your belief you stated several times over "I think its biological factors are inherently responsible" -- and you believe that because? Any evidence? Journals? Links? Anything at all?

 

[jimmyb]

Look at the bold titles that suggest that fetal testosterone levels effect childhood development, that hormones effect development of gray matter and the countless other changes that occur in a brain's ability to reason, process emotions, facts and then try to provide any evidence that childhood development, gray matter development, spatial abilities and other factors does not effect adult development.

I'm not claiming that there aren't inherent biological differences. I'm asking for evidence to support the claim that STEM discrepancies are inherent. Please note the difference.

The fact that we observe inherent biological differences is not sufficient condition to conclude that STEM based skill discrepancies are inherently biological. This fails the most basic scientific reasoning.

 

[WBurchnall]

The fact that we observe inherent biological differences is not sufficient condition to conclude that STEM based skill discrepancies are inherently biological. This fails the most basic scientific reasoning.

Who is 'We' in this sentence? I have not observed any evidence you have provided to suggest that brain differences and childhood development differences caused by brain differences do not lead into adulthood. In fact, one might expect a child poor at mathematics due to a brain disability to grow into an adult poor at mathematics. That's not at all against reasoning or common sense.

 

[WBurchnall]

I'm not claiming that there aren't inherent biological differences. I'm asking for evidence to support the claim that STEM discrepancies are inherent. Please note the difference.

I have noted the difference. Baron Cohen's work following a group of children from gestation through birth and into childhood is reaching now mid teenage years(15-16) and still his research holds right up to young adulthood that fetal testosterone effects brain development and that the brain developmental changes during gestation show up in predictable behavior patterns. Time will tell if this continues onward until early 20s, etc and career choices.

That being said, the concept that childhood development is effected by inherent biological differences is basically a well supported theory with lots of scientists, scientific trials and scientific evidence (as indicated above by all the studies including different scientists). You yourself are not claiming otherwise as stated in your quote above. What makes you personally believe that childhood development is unrelated to adulthood?

 

[WBurchnall]

What makes you personally believe that childhood development is unrelated to adulthood?

For that matter, what makes you feel that mid-teenage study group's developmental trends in the children in Baron Cohen's work will not continue into later adulthood developmental stages? Once again, I'd say at this point, I've established well that childhood developmental trends, capabilities and brain differences result in a lot of the sex differences, performance differences, spatial abilities, reasoning, emotional intelligence, toy differences, etc found between boys and girls.

In fact, differences show up 3 days after birth. Girls spend more time looking at faces and boys at objects if show both. Well before culture or socialization has really taken effect. The concept that teenage and childhood development plays an important role in adulthood development is what many would consider a very small leap of faith, common sense or reasonable reasoning. I haven't put a huge or extraordinary claim out there by suggesting such and as a result a huge preponderance of evidence should not be required. It's not like I'm claiming dragons exist and killed God whom also existed and rode on a unicorn of fire.

 

[WBurchnall]

Childhood and teenage development has nothing to do with adult career choices I would say is the larger leap of faith and counter-intuitive to reasoning JimmyB and puts the onus on you if you are going to make such a claim to prove otherwise.

 

[jimmyb]

Who is 'We' in this sentence?

The word "We" was not in the setences you quoted.

I have not observed any evidence you have provided to suggest that brain differences and childhood development differences caused by brain differences do not lead into adulthood

I haven't claimed that, nor do I believe, so obviously I haven't posted any evidence supporting that.

 

[jimmyb]

Childhood and teenage development has nothing to do with adult career choices I would say is the larger leap of faith and counter-intuitive to reasoning JimmyB and puts the onus on you if you are going to make such a claim to prove otherwise.

I'm not claiming that "Childhood and teenage development has nothing to do with adult career choices". Please read my posts carefully to understand the scope of my claims.

I'm asking for evidence that there are specifically *inherent* biological differences that cause significant discrepancy in STEM-based skills.

The existence of *some* inherent difference does not imply the existence of significantly inherent STEM differences. That's line of reasoning is totally unscientific.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Yes, similarly, women never want male jobs that are deemed undesirable yet want CEO jobs. Women largely are comfortably in the middle/average with very few homeless comparatively, few garbage collectors, fewer working in jobs that expose people to environmental hazards, few coal miners, etc. Men have a large spread and a few men occupy the majority of the top while many many more men also occupy the vast majority of the bottom most rung. It's a little disturbing how one can be living comfortable, average life and feel ungrateful, unhappy, like a victim that they don't have more stuff and blame all men for being so privileged while stepping around the poor homeless man on the street corner.

This is a huge jumbled mass of incorrect assumptions and statements of your own bias.

For example, in the US, the adult poverty rate is 20% for females, 18% for males. (Source)

And while in all other categories of work-related incidents, men are more are equally as likely to be fatally injured - except for homicides, which is disturbing. 9% of all fatal occupational accidents were homicides for men - and 28% for women. (Source)

 

[TwistedAegis]

The existence of *some* inherent difference does not imply the existence of significantly inherent STEM differences. That's line of reasoning is totally unscientific.

Thank you. Person A is different than Person B has been proven. Fine. But do the differences in Person A and Person B have anything to do with ability in STEM? Unproven.

 

[WBurchnall]

I have noted the difference. Baron Cohen's work following a group of children from gestation through birth and into childhood is reaching now mid teenage years(15-16) and still his research holds right up to young adulthood that fetal testosterone effects brain development and that the brain developmental changes during gestation show up in predictable behavior patterns. Time will tell if this continues onward until early 20s, etc and career choices.

That being said, the concept that childhood development is effected by inherent biological differences is basically a well supported theory with lots of scientists, scientific trials and scientific evidence (as indicated above by all the studies including different scientists). You yourself are not claiming otherwise as stated in your quote above. What makes you personally believe that childhood development is unrelated to adulthood?

I'm not claiming that "Childhood and teenage development has nothing to do with adult career choices". Please read my posts carefully to understand the scope of my claims.

I'm asking for evidence that there are specifically *inherent* biological differences that cause significant discrepancy in STEM-based skills.

The existence of *some* inherent difference does not imply the existence of significantly inherent STEM differences. That's line of reasoning is totally unscientific.

Sorry, but this is getting ridiculous and I feel like I'm talking to someone that's logically challenged. Let's say we have three premises and a conclusion.
Premise 1. A is true
Premise 2: A leads to B. (If A then B)
Premise 3: B leads to C. (If B then C)
Statement: A leads to C (By Inference)
Conclusion: C is true.

Do you understand this logic? That if A is true and you show the steps inbetween that if A then B, if B then C if C then D, etc that the element at the end of the chain is true also true?

Great. So we have the following premises we've both agreed upon and is well supported by the many research articles I provided:
A. Hormones during gestation effect gray matter.
B. Hormones during gestation effect emotional intelligence and spatial cognition
C. Hormones during gestation has been shown to effect childhood behavior; showing up as early as 1 day after birth. 1 day!
D. Hormones during gestation effect behavior up into mid teens.
E. Childhood aptitudes and development is effected by sex differences, hormornes, etc.

Let's make F. a hypothesis which we'll assume to be true for sake of argument and you yourself have no made any attempt to disprove this.

F. Good or poor childhood development correlates a well developed or poorly developed adult(intellectually speaking).
G. Being a scientist requires good development of mathematical, rational, spatial cognitive abilities or let's say a core-fundamental set of traits serve scientists well in their career and help built a natural aptitude. IE "Anyone can be a plumber but not everyone can be an engineer as I think someone stated earlier."

A, B, C, D, E all lead to F and F leads to G. Why then if I have proved A, B, C, D, E and we agree that F and G are true statements/implications. Why is G not true?

You're basically saying "I believe there are biological differences (A, B, C, D, E, F) and agree F and G but you haven't shown G to be true" when its a logical inference that's pretty obvious given the statements we've agreed upon. It's a very small logically consistent step to jump there.

 

[VladDracule]

I agree that education for profit in the US is a terrible state of education. Post secondary education burdens students with way too much debt and way to few job opportunities. Graduates living at home with their parents because they cannot find work is sickening to me.

Two counterpoints, though. Sorry to bring this up. You mention hispanic girls and talk about social expectations. That's fine.

You then state "Not only that but there is no way in hell they could afford college, even with scholarships and grants its just not possible for them." -- Would this not effect Hispanic males as well. If a family does not have money for education, a family does not have money for education regardless of the makeup of how many children or what sexes the children are. A poor family is a poor family.

Ironically, there are women only scholarships available to specifically help women that a Hispanic male would be unable to apply for. Even as more women are entering university than men, women only scholarships still exist. There are no male only scholarships to help out the Hispanic male. They could both apply to Latino/Hispanic-only scholarships but ultimately, the women will have more scholarship opportunities.

Sure the money issue exists for both male and female, i didnt proofread my post to see if it was accurate and communicated what i meant

Hispanic females have to battle social expections as well as money wheres the money issue is of course universal for poorer families.

One thing of note though to your point about the female only scholarships, is that at least for the universities here, they are EXTREMELY POORLY communicated. Most hispanic female students dont even know they exist, and that is both the fault of the University and their high school councilors.

One thing though is that even with additional scholarships, social expectations of young hispanic girls even if the money were there I've found they are really unlikely to escape their social expectation/place. One of my primary responsibilities with my volunteer work is to help these kids find funding through some of these scholarships you speak of, but i have had multiple kids turn them down. Some of the girls did because of pregnancy, others because they just didn't want to go to school because if they did, their families still expected them to take care of the house which would mean they have to escape their housing situation completely, or they just physically/mentally couldnt meet the demand for both school and family.

 

[WBurchnall]

I'm sure you could even just take a simple poll asking people on here JimmyB asking people from this thread alone that work in STEM if they performed well during elementary school and high school in mathematics, logic, science or had good spatial cognitive abilities. They'll likely answer 'Yes' for the vast majority.

Doing well in childhood in mathematics (whether it be boys developing mathematics skills 4 year earlier than girls when neuro-plasticity is at its highest), more interest in things, better understanding of systems but less of social empathy/emotional intelligence or the other factors like differentiating grey matter, links between brain's hemispheres, brain activation, gender differences showing up at 1 day old and the many other factors in the links above has been pretty much scientifically proven a difference inherent biologically in brains that promote different development throughout childhood and into early teenage years.

If you ask STEM people if they did well in math, science or enjoyed math and science during childhood and elementary school, it would not guarantee a correlation but would support the hypothesis and common sense reasoning that doing well in childhood and early adulthood promotes your chances of doing well in later adulthood. Most people wanting to become a chemist, did not hate chemistry and do poorly in chemistry in high school. Similar for mathematicians, engineers, etc.