Apple's Custom GPU is Reportedly Faster than Intel iGPU

[erek]

"According to relevant sources, Apple's self-developed GPU is progressing smoothly. The research and development code is Lifuka. Like the upcoming A14X processor, it is produced using TSMC's 5 nm process. Apple has designed a series of processors for Mac personal computers. The new GPU will provide better performance per watt and higher computing performance. It has tile-based deferred rendering Technology that allows application developers to write more powerful professional application software and game software."

https://www.techpowerup.com/271609/apples-custom-gpu-is-reportedly-faster-than-intel-igpu

 

[DukenukemX]

That's nothing special since everything is faster than Intel GPU's. Lets see when Intel releases the new Xe GPUs. Also, doesn't Apple primarily use AMD discrete GPUs? Shouldn't this be compared to them?

 

[Mchart]

That's nothing special since everything is faster than Intel GPU's. Lets see when Intel releases the new Xe GPUs. Also, doesn't Apple primarily use AMD discrete GPUs? Shouldn't this be compared to them?

With the move to their ARM based custom SOC they likely will move away from AMD/Nvidia. Given the performance of their mobile GPU already it’s not hard to believe that with desktop level TDP their GPU could be quite competitive.

 

[Aurelius]

That's nothing special since everything is faster than Intel GPU's. Lets see when Intel releases the new Xe GPUs. Also, doesn't Apple primarily use AMD discrete GPUs? Shouldn't this be compared to them?

It'll matter in systems where a dedicated GPU hasn't been realistic, like smaller MacBooks and the Mac mini. I suspect Apple won't blow AMD and NVIDIA out of the water at first, but it's easy to imagine MacBooks with dGPU-level performance that isn't an option in rival x86 systems.

 

[DukenukemX]

It'll matter in systems where a dedicated GPU hasn't been realistic, like smaller MacBooks and the Mac mini. I suspect Apple won't blow AMD and NVIDIA out of the water at first, but it's easy to imagine MacBooks with dGPU-level performance that isn't an option in rival x86 systems.

Apple's GPU's are basically Imagination's PoverVR that they stole and poached their developers. Imagination sued Apple and they settled with Apple claiming to stop using their intellectual property and will eventually stop paying them royalties. In my opinion is that Apple is on borrowed time with their GPU technology because it is a cut throat industry and Apple has no real experience in it besides stealing it. With Intel actually taking GPU technology serious, it's about to get a lot more cut throaty. Though Apple did sign a new multi-year licensing agreement which gives a “wider range” access to Imagination’s IP. If anyone remembers Imagination was pioneering in Ray-Tracing some years ago which Apple needs if they plan to stay relevant in the GPU industry.

 

[Aurelius]

Apple's GPU's are basically Imagination's PoverVR that they stole and poached their developers. Imagination sued Apple and they settled with Apple claiming to stop using their intellectual property and will eventually stop paying them royalties. In my opinion is that Apple is on borrowed time with their GPU technology because it is a cut throat industry and Apple has no real experience in it besides stealing it. With Intel actually taking GPU technology serious, it's about to get a lot more cut throaty. Though Apple did sign a new multi-year licensing agreement which gives a “wider range” access to Imagination’s IP. If anyone remembers Imagination was pioneering in Ray-Tracing some years ago which Apple needs if they plan to stay relevant in the GPU industry.

Er, you do know Apple has been customizing its GPU tech for several years now at this point, right? And that simply borrowing Imagination ideas is at odds with how the company approaches the rest of its CPUs, which are heavily customized well beyond the reference ARM architecture? I wouldn't rule out Apple using its license occasionally, but the whole point of developing custom graphics is to do what off-the-shelf tech like PowerVR can't.

For that matter, I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Intel just yet. Apple is moving to ARM precisely because Intel has struggled at delivering meaningful improvements on silicon for years, and not just for manufacturing processes. There are hints Xe is a good step up for Intel GPU tech, but if AMD and NVIDIA aren't panicking at this point, I suspect Apple isn't either.

 

[DukenukemX]

but the whole point of developing custom graphics is to do what off-the-shelf tech like PowerVR can't.

I think the point is for Apple to save themselves a lot of money. Why you think Apple went after Qualcomm for their modems and tried to see if Intel could make them? Qualcomm was just better and the Intel modems were inferior.

For that matter, I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Intel just yet. Apple is moving to ARM precisely because Intel has struggled at delivering meaningful improvements on silicon for years, and not just for manufacturing processes. There are hints Xe is a good step up for Intel GPU tech, but if AMD and NVIDIA aren't panicking at this point, I suspect Apple isn't either.

AMD and Nvidia don't have good reasons to panic because Intel hasn't shown much. What little I've seen suggests that next year, Intel could be something to worry over.

 

[Aurelius]

I think the point is for Apple to save themselves a lot of money. Why you think Apple went after Qualcomm for their modems and tried to see if Intel could make them? Qualcomm was just better and the Intel modems were inferior.

AMD and Nvidia don't have good reasons to panic because Intel hasn't shown much. What little I've seen suggests that next year, Intel could be something to worry over.

But Apple is also spending loads on developing in-house modem technology that will eventually replace Qualcomm. And what applies to Qualcomm isn't necessarily true for Imagination. Remember, Apple is probably paying considerably more to develop its own SoCs than it would if it simply went with the latest Snapdragon like most everyone else.

Apple's golden rule is that it will develop tech of its own if it feels the third-party option is either inferior or too proprietary. It made FairPlay because it couldn't sell unprotected songs and didn't want to chain its fate to someone else's DRM, for example. Hell, it was even directly involved in making Thunderbolt because it didn't think USB was good enough. Apple might have licensed Imagination's tech, but in this case it's more of a launching pad for custom GPU designs than something borrowed.

 

[vegeta535]

Who cares? To take advantage of apple you have to use Apple products. Idc how good it is. I don't care to use anything that runs macOS or iOS.

 

[DukenukemX]

But Apple is also spending loads on developing in-house modem technology that will eventually replace Qualcomm. And what applies to Qualcomm isn't necessarily true for Imagination. Remember, Apple is probably paying considerably more to develop its own SoCs than it would if it simply went with the latest Snapdragon like most everyone else.

For the most part Apple just modifies the ARM technology to fit their needs like most who create SoC's. Apple can spend money but that doesn't mean they'll make a better product. Look at AMD vs Intel, cause I can assure you that Intel spent a lot more on R&D than AMD and yet AMD is currently on top in performance. Even Intel is going to have a hard time dealing with AMD and Nvidia in the GPU market. It's going to take Intel 5 years before they can even approach Nvidia's level of performance. Apple is a software company who is trying to make hardware and is spread too thin.

Apple's golden rule is that it will develop tech of its own if it feels the third-party option is either inferior or too proprietary.

That's an odd rule considering how inferior Apple products are usually.

Apple might have licensed Imagination's tech, but in this case it's more of a launching pad for custom GPU designs than something borrowed.

Stolen at first and now licensed after lawsuits. Imagination is now essentially dead after Apple picked them apart as a company. Now Imagination is owned by the Chinese Canyon Bridge which will make wonderful products like MIPS based routers, other networking products, and of course VOIP. I don't have confidence that Apple can make up for destroying Imagination. The fact that Apple had to buy their license from Imagination means they're not capable of making a GPU independently. Qualcomm had Adreno for years and they're about to give up to go with AMD, so I see the same thing happening with Apple eventually. Nvidia stepped out of the mobile market since nobody was buying Tegra, but Nvidia could come back and become a problem for Apple. As it stands Apple's biggest competitor in the mobile GPU market is ARM's Mali.

 

[Lakados]

For the most part Apple just modifies the ARM technology to fit their needs like most who create SoC's. Apple can spend money but that doesn't mean they'll make a better product. Look at AMD vs Intel, cause I can assure you that Intel spent a lot more on R&D than AMD and yet AMD is currently on top in performance. Even Intel is going to have a hard time dealing with AMD and Nvidia in the GPU market. It's going to take Intel 5 years before they can even approach Nvidia's level of performance. Apple is a software company who is trying to make hardware and is spread too thin.

That's an odd rule considering how inferior Apple products are usually.

Stolen at first and now licensed after lawsuits. Imagination is now essentially dead after Apple picked them apart as a company. Now Imagination is owned by the Chinese Canyon Bridge which will make wonderful products like MIPS based routers, other networking products, and of course VOIP. I don't have confidence that Apple can make up for destroying Imagination. The fact that Apple had to buy their license from Imagination means they're not capable of making a GPU independently. Qualcomm had Adreno for years and they're about to give up to go with AMD, so I see the same thing happening with Apple eventually. Nvidia stepped out of the mobile market since nobody was buying Tegra, but Nvidia could come back and become a problem for Apple. As it stands Apple's biggest competitor in the mobile GPU market is ARM's Mali.

Not even stolen.... Apple was paying them and Apple said they were going to stop using them. Imagination told Apple “good luck building something that doesn’t violate a patent” so Apple settled before any lawsuits really took off. So they worked out a deal Apple no longer pays them “royalties” but instead has a “license” essentially the same thing but probably a lower cost and just one flat fee instead of a portion of sales.

 

[ccityinstaller]

Er, you do know Apple has been customizing its GPU tech for several years now at this point, right? And that simply borrowing Imagination ideas is at odds with how the company approaches the rest of its CPUs, which are heavily customized well beyond the reference ARM architecture? I wouldn't rule out Apple using its license occasionally, but the whole point of developing custom graphics is to do what off-the-shelf tech like PowerVR can't.

For that matter, I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Intel just yet. Apple is moving to ARM precisely because Intel has struggled at delivering meaningful improvements on silicon for years, and not just for manufacturing processes. There are hints Xe is a good step up for Intel GPU tech, but if AMD and NVIDIA aren't panicking at this point, I suspect Apple isn't either.

You cant build a modne

Er, you do know Apple has been customizing its GPU tech for several years now at this point, right? And that simply borrowing Imagination ideas is at odds with how the company approaches the rest of its CPUs, which are heavily customized well beyond the reference ARM architecture? I wouldn't rule out Apple using its license occasionally, but the whole point of developing custom graphics is to do what off-the-shelf tech like PowerVR can't.

For that matter, I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Intel just yet. Apple is moving to ARM precisely because Intel has struggled at delivering meaningful improvements on silicon for years, and not just for manufacturing processes. There are hints Xe is a good step up for Intel GPU tech, but if AMD and NVIDIA aren't panicking at this point, I suspect Apple isn't either.

You cannot build a modern GPU (legally speaking) without a patent license from AmD, Nvidia, or IM, and whomever owns Matrox these days. Of course I nearly forgot the patent troll king, Qualcomm.

 

[Conman]

Aren't they designing and building a GPU for every new A series chip they make? That's 14 generations in correct?

 

[Lakados]

Aas

You cant build a modne


You cannot build a modern GPU (legally speaking) without a patent license from AmD, Nvidia, or IM, and whomever owns Matrox these days. Of course I nearly forgot the patent troll king, Qualcomm.

Apple has a thing about not paying royalties, but they are perfectly fine with Licensing. So while they threatened IM to stop paying royalties and did they still do cut them a licensing check. Essentially the same thing but can be balanced in the books differently, I am sure they have similar deals with other patent holders as well.

 

[SmokeRngs]

Apple might have licensed Imagination's tech, but in this case it's more of a launching pad for custom GPU designs than something borrowed.

That doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it depending on the licensing agreements. It also doesn't mean they can make something "custom" and then say they don't need to pay licensing fees anymore because it's not exactly the same. Building off someone else's technology is one thing, developing your own technology without infringing on patents is a completely different beast.

If it was cheap and easy to get into the GPU business everyone would be doing it. And having a bunch of money to throw at R&D does not mean you can make a good product. If you need an example of that you have to look no farther than Intel and Intel has a lot more experience in the arena than Apple does.

 

[THRESHIN]

Well good for apple I guess but Intel has not once made a GPU that you could call fast by any means. This is hardly anything to brag about. It's like saying you can run faster than the guy with a broken leg.

 

[dinklyjames]

I love seeing the market expand

 

[Aurelius]

That doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it depending on the licensing agreements. It also doesn't mean they can make something "custom" and then say they don't need to pay licensing fees anymore because it's not exactly the same. Building off someone else's technology is one thing, developing your own technology without infringing on patents is a completely different beast.

If it was cheap and easy to get into the GPU business everyone would be doing it. And having a bunch of money to throw at R&D does not mean you can make a good product. If you need an example of that you have to look no farther than Intel and Intel has a lot more experience in the arena than Apple does.

Didn't say companies could play fast and loose with licensing, just that it's not necessarily about copying.

The thing about GPU development: Apple already has experience developing custom GPUs, and they're already at the front of the pack as far as phones go. I'd also put more trust in Apple's approach since it has a longstanding reputation for good silicon in general where Intel tends to struggle in anything that isn't general CPUs (and even then...).

 

[SmokeRngs]

Didn't say companies could play fast and loose with licensing, just that it's not necessarily about copying.

The thing about GPU development: Apple already has experience developing custom GPUs, and they're already at the front of the pack as far as phones go. I'd also put more trust in Apple's approach since it has a longstanding reputation for good silicon in general where Intel tends to struggle in anything that isn't general CPUs (and even then...).

Apple is using someone else's tech. Apple did not design their on GPU from the ground up. Intel's integrated GPUs have been the same for years, based off someone else's tech.

For Apple to truly have their own GPU they would need to design it from the ground up and make sure none of it infringes on all the patents out there and that is extremely difficult to do.