Apple to get rid of butterfly switches.

Uvaman2

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https://gizmodo.com/apple-might-start-ditching-its-terrible-horrible-no-g-1836104621

Not much to it
.. looks like they are going to phase it out.
Gotta say, Apple is magic, sticking with a shit design for going on 5 years and people still love your shit. Incredible.

Now wtf is a butterfly switches and a scissors switch, and why the hell did they do this? Thin supposedly is the reason, but that sounds like unmitigated bullshit, thin switches are as old as time itself and their keys are not magically thin or anything. Is this some Jony Ive bullshit?
 

RPGWiZaRD

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Apple is the prime example when fashion & design takes over function. Thank god I don't belong to that category. Can't say the same for the "average woman" (I put quotation marks in order to not get too offensive towards errm said group :whistle:). "Darling that TV chair looks absolutely disgusting" Me: But but it's so comfortable... *gets stare of disapproval*"
 

Jim Kim

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They can’t all be winners. I just wish they would identify that sooner than later.
I don't think you can identify a problem any quicker than release day. Apple is now using the same QA methods as Microsoft so it's impossible to figure out if something will work until it is in the consumers hands.
 

westrock2000

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You don't buy a MacBook for performance, features, or durability - you buy it so other people will see that you have a MacBook.

Are you talking about the "Macbook" specifically, or using that as a generic term for all Apple laptops?
 

MMitch

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I don’t fault Apple for trying something new. They have as many or more hits as they do misses.

They can’t all be winners. I just wish they would identify that sooner than later.

Those keyboards failed so hard and so quickly for almost anything that it's a shame it even went thru design stage... anyway... ... to each their own lol.
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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Apple were trying to achieve a mechanical feel in a small form factor. For the most part it worked, people who say they are unreliable are mostly wankers who just read news articles and want ammunition.

I know tons of people with the newer Macbooks, sold tons and no one has reported issues. I am still rocking my “unreliable” early 2015 model. Before that I had a super unreliable 7yr old Macbook :ROFLMAO:

Personally if you eat and drink over your keyboard then you deserve whatever is coming anyway.
 

thelead

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Not around here, you will generally get laughed at and ridiculed.
Which is ridiculous. It’s a tool to do a job. I rely heavily on my MacBook for Final Cut Pro which is unavailable on any other operating system. I also rely heavily on my Windows laptop, iPad, and Chromebook for development/testing of applications/systems. People need to grow the F up.
 

Aurelius

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Apple were trying to achieve a mechanical feel in a small form factor. For the most part it worked, people who say they are unreliable are mostly wankers who just read news articles and want ammunition.

I know tons of people with the newer Macbooks, sold tons and no one has reported issues. I am still rocking my “unreliable” early 2015 model. Before that I had a super unreliable 7yr old Macbook :ROFLMAO:

Personally if you eat and drink over your keyboard then you deserve whatever is coming anyway.

Early 2015 models aren't affected by this.

And I'm sorry, but you're being dismissive -- I know many people didn't have problems, but it's silly to presume that everyone who has problems is just being irresponsible. It's a flawed design; Apple is (apparently) replacing it.
 

westrock2000

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All of their laptops are called MacBooks and have been so since 2006. There are currently 3 models: MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro.

That's why I asked. The literal Macbook is kinda questionable, but the Macbook Air has been a great laptop during it's life. But, being around here, I know that I should expect trashing Apple in general and not referring to specifics. So I wanted to clear it up.
 
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Outside of games, the Macbook Pro competes with its top-tier Windows counterparts on both price and performance, and blows them away in terms of reliability. There's good reason I run a MBP (booted into Windows) as my mobile work machine.

The problem is that Apple is currently stuck with using AMD's garbage GPUs. If they swapped those out for something a little more serious from Nvidia, they'd have a real contender. Nvidia's power-hungry heat machines do seem to be a bit of an issue with laptops though, as shown by nearly every (or literally every?) RTX-equipped laptop having to get rid of the wrist rest due to thermal issues. This weak compromise may not be compatible with Apple's product standards, and this could by why they went with AMD's "probably faster than just sketching by hand" mobile GPUs.
 

Retronym

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People used to rave about their older keyboards.

Now I see reviewer after reviewer pledge not to own them because of the keyboards.

Why do I own their stock again?
 

Shadowed

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You don't buy a MacBook for performance, features, or durability - you buy it so other people will see that you have a MacBook.

I got an older Macbook for precisely this reason. I was sick of maintaining my hackintosh laptop and the 2012 Macbook Pro non retina is easily repairable.

Then Apple put it to the pasture and now they are a nightmare to repair. Your statement has been correct for over 7 years now.

The older macbooks before 2012 were pretty darn good. I always will admire their longevity.

Were they perfect? Hell no. But I love mine and will be sad to see it die.
 

Shadowed

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Outside of games, the Macbook Pro competes with its top-tier Windows counterparts on both price and performance, and blows them away in terms of reliability. There's good reason I run a MBP (booted into Windows) as my mobile work machine.

The problem is that Apple is currently stuck with using AMD's garbage GPUs. If they swapped those out for something a little more serious from Nvidia, they'd have a real contender. Nvidia's power-hungry heat machines do seem to be a bit of an issue with laptops though, as shown by nearly every (or literally every?) RTX-equipped laptop having to get rid of the wrist rest due to thermal issues. This weak compromise may not be compatible with Apple's product standards, and this could by why they went with AMD's "probably faster than just sketching by hand" mobile GPUs.

Apple still does not allow the 15" to switch to the iGPU on Windows without some hackery. This results in deplorable battery life compared to MacOS.

I have to reboot my Macbook to use the iGPU for Windows and vice versa...

Other than that it's pretty darn good for Windows.

For gaming, it takes some serious tweaking to get a Macbook to not throttle on Windows. ThrottleStop + MacsFanControl (for Windows and MacOS) are absolutely needed. Apple's ridiculous fan curve keeps the average Macbook at a very high temperature at load.

The 80w hard power limit also is a major limiting factor in performance if the Macbook is cool enough to draw that much power.

Apple has gone down the 45w CPU + 45w/35w GPU route for awhile now, and the CPU will consume more than 45w if you let it.

We need better cooling or a far more efficient CPU to get the GPU grunt you desire. But I cannot see NVidia returning after what happened.

Luckily, eGPU's are available for a crazy price.

Nvidia performs pretty awful on MacOS. My 1080 ti runs nowhere near as fast as it should using the Nvidia Web Drivers.
 

naib

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What is a butterfly and a scissor switch? this is from 2015 when it was released

keychatter_2015-03-09_18-22-46.png

They’re claiming that the mechanism “makes each key more stable, more precise, and 40% thinner,” and they’ve also increased the surface area of each keycap by 17% compared to previous models.They’re claiming that the mechanism “makes each key more stable, more precise, and 40% thinner,” and they’ve also increased the surface area of each keycap by 17% compared to previous models.
https://www.keychatter.com/2015/03/09/new-butterfly-keyboard-switch-in-next-gen-apple-macbooks/
 

twonunpackmule

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Apple were trying to achieve a mechanical feel in a small form factor. For the most part it worked, people who say they are unreliable are mostly wankers who just read news articles and want ammunition.

I know tons of people with the newer Macbooks, sold tons and no one has reported issues. I am still rocking my “unreliable” early 2015 model. Before that I had a super unreliable 7yr old Macbook :ROFLMAO:

Personally if you eat and drink over your keyboard then you deserve whatever is coming anyway.

Macbooks also tend to keep their value for a longer time. So, it's not like you can't get that money back in some capacity.
 

Mr34727

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You don't buy a MacBook for performance, features, or durability - you buy it so other people will see that you have a MacBook.

Nah, I have a dislike for Apple that probably rivals most on these forums, but the Macbook and the iphone are both solid pieces of hardware.
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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Macbooks also tend to keep their value for a longer time. So, it's not like you can't get that money back in some capacity.

Yup all my Apple devices including phones have had insane resale value, up to 3/4 return after 2yrs.

My Macbooks tend to get used until they die which is at least 5 years. I don’t see windows laptops go beyond 3yrs generally in the field.

FYI, I don’t use a Macbook to look elite, I use it because I want to open it, do work and close it. Not sit there installing Windows updates or deal with other stupid issues. Macbooks are productivity devices, end of story.

I understand this is an enthusiast forum but please keep in mind that in a work environment where you rely on tools to generate income, you just want shit to work so you can make money.
 
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until the second coming of the real thinkpad, most laptops that typically come loaded with windows are true pieces of junk. something ill never understand is how they get slower... and slower... and slower over time. why is that?
 

TrevorR

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Yup all my Apple devices including phones have had insane resale value, up to 3/4 return after 2yrs.

My Macbooks tend to get used until they die which is at least 5 years. I don’t see windows laptops go beyond 3yrs generally in the field.

FYI, I don’t use a Macbook to look elite, I use it because I want to open it, do work and close it. Not sit there installing Windows updates or deal with other stupid issues. Macbooks are productivity devices, end of story.

I understand this is an enthusiast forum but please keep in mind that in a work environment where you rely on tools to generate income, you just want shit to work so you can make money.


Pretty much, I have a Macbook pro basically for the reasons you stated. I'm on my 4th macbook in the past 10 years. I've sold each macbook for at least 3/4 of its value when its 2-3 years old. Also, I've NEVER had issues with stupid OS crashes, bugs, issues that require a complete format whereas on my PC, I've probably had to reformat like 20 times.

As much as I don't like Apples pricing and marketing and whatnot, they make products that just freaking work and are reliable. I had my work give me an HP laptop for work when I already had a macbook. and it was the same specifications as my macbook pro. The HP laptop just felt cheap since it was plastic and the OS just felt very clunky and slow.

For the PC "elitists" or whatever you call them. What you see at starbucks or whatnot represent a small fraction of macbook users. Go to any college campus and you'll see people with 5-6 year old macbooks. In my case, I'm currently at a 50,000+ student campus and see a crap ton of older macbooks. Previously I was at a 40,000 student campus in DC, bunch of older macbooks as well. Personally, I don't see this Apple "superiority" attitude. This may have been the case in 2008 but I don't think that applies today.

So why do users buy macbooks? Because of the perception that they work for a long time, because they do.
 

Uvaman2

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Pretty much, I have a Macbook pro basically for the reasons you stated. I'm on my 4th macbook in the past 10 years. I've sold each macbook for at least 3/4 of its value when its 2-3 years old. Also, I've NEVER had issues with stupid OS crashes, bugs, issues that require a complete format whereas on my PC, I've probably had to reformat like 20 times.

As much as I don't like Apples pricing and marketing and whatnot, they make products that just freaking work and are reliable. I had my work give me an HP laptop for work when I already had a macbook. and it was the same specifications as my macbook pro. The HP laptop just felt cheap since it was plastic and the OS just felt very clunky and slow.

For the PC "elitists" or whatever you call them. What you see at starbucks or whatnot represent a small fraction of macbook users. Go to any college campus and you'll see people with 5-6 year old macbooks. In my case, I'm currently at a 50,000+ student campus and see a crap ton of older macbooks. Previously I was at a 40,000 student campus in DC, bunch of older macbooks as well. Personally, I don't see this Apple "superiority" attitude. This may have been the case in 2008 but I don't think that applies today.

So why do users buy macbooks? Because of the perception that they work for a long time, because they do.
I must know, what are you doing with your pc that requires 20 re formats?
I have a very old win7 pc, and haven't reformat once. I am fairly active with it too (but no gaming)
 

TrevorR

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I must know, what are you doing with your pc that requires 20 re formats?
I have a very old win7 pc, and haven't reformat once. I am fairly active with it too (but no gaming)

well... 20 is an exaggeration. Probably about 4-5 times the past 10 years. I remember on two occasions large updates for Windows 10 "broke" my system. After the large update, programs wouldn't launch, games wouldn't launch.

Then about 3 months ago, all of a sudden out of the blue, a game that I play on a regularly basis absolutely refused to load. Tried troubleshooting it for literally an entire day scanning forums to see how to fix the issue. I gave up and reformatted and installed the game and magically it booted up again.
 

Krazy925

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Wow did people at [H] actually accept that sometimes Macs have a place in the world?

I still love my 6+ year old MacBook Air that’s made it through my undergraduate upper division and my MBA.

I’d have been through at least 2 maybe 3 windows laptops by now. Don’t get me wrong the cost is higher and I admittedly haven’t tried to the Microsoft laptops yet or the new Dell XPS13 in the field.

I’m thinking about going back to windows laptops.
 
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Deleted member 243478

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Dealing with many clients I can say that Windows laptops simply do not last. The hardware is either falling apart or Windows grinds to a halt. No idea what it is about Windows on laptops but it is just shit generally unless you know how to reinstall regulary.

The only laptop I would touch other than a Macbook is a Thinkpad but I would have to be desperate to use Windows.
 
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Deleted member 243478

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Of course it has a place in the world. As overpriced designer jewelry.

Spoken like a true Windows / PC user...

Seriously guys can we just cut the crap, the Apple hate is wearing thin.

Yes they are expensive but they have their place and I am yet to meet a Mac user who is a poser or whatever your call them. They are simply users who want a computer that works and doesn’t need IT. When i am using my mac, the absolute last thing I think about is hey I look great! More likely I am thinking, hey my computer didn’t freeze coming out of sleep or hey I don’t need to reboot for fkn updates or share my data with the MS mothership.

Yes Macs are expensive but you are not just paying for hardware, you are paying for the complete package / ecosystem.
 
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Mazzspeed

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most use low end 5400rpm hdds…

Which should be adequate for the non power user, the reality is the machine is so hard drive thrashingly slow it should almost be illegal to sell as it can barely perform the task it was designed for. He has a point, the NTFS file system is simply slow and outdated - Having said that, HFS+ is worse.
 
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Deleted member 243478

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Which should be adequate for the non power user, the reality is the machine is so hard drive thrashingly slow it should almost be illegal to sell as it can barely perform the task it was designed for. He has a point, the NTFS file system is simply slow and outdated - Having said that, HFS+ is worse.

Yet Apple equip all their laptops and phones with super fast NVMe. Infact you can thank Apple for spuring on the industry as they have been class leaders with storage speed from Macbooks to iPhones for a looooong time
 

Uvaman2

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well... 20 is an exaggeration. Probably about 4-5 times the past 10 years. I remember on two occasions large updates for Windows 10 "broke" my system. After the large update, programs wouldn't launch, games wouldn't launch.

Then about 3 months ago, all of a sudden out of the blue, a game that I play on a regularly basis absolutely refused to load. Tried troubleshooting it for literally an entire day scanning forums to see how to fix the issue. I gave up and reformatted and installed the game and magically it booted up again.
Windows 10 huh?
I been thinking about building a windows 10 pc.... I have it in a very small format pc ... Not too impressed, but not horrific as in windows 8.
Its very sad to hear ms is having a little re-hash of the pre-windows 7 days.
Windows 7 is so effing rock solid (or it has been for me rather, I suppose) started making ne forget the re format days... Shit I hated that crap.
 

Uvaman2

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Dealing with many clients I can say that Windows laptops simply do not last. The hardware is either falling apart or Windows grinds to a halt. No idea what it is about Windows on laptops but it is just shit generally unless you know how to reinstall regulary.

The only laptop I would touch other than a Macbook is a Thinkpad but I would have to be desperate to use Windows.
Well.... When it hurts to buy it you might take better care?
I know I did... I will soon be recycling a once top of the line hp notebook, working and everything... Billion years old now (14? )
 
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Deleted member 243478

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Well.... When it hurts to buy it you might take better care?
I know I did... I will soon be recycling a once top of the line hp notebook, working and everything... Billion years old now (14? )

They are clients laptops not mine and they ain’t tech savvy. If Windows needs the user to hold it’s hand to last then I guess it’s a shit OS...

Oh hell, it is a shit OS period, Windows XP was good, anything after should have pulled out.
 
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