Apple Store Employee Starts Union

Maybe this part-time employee should consider working full time in order to increase (or be eligible for) his benefits and paychecks?
 
pgwalsh said:
Unfortunately you make the assumption that is based solely on big business. Just remember that small business employees 71% of the workforce and much of those regulations hurt the small guys much more than the big ones.

If you really think all of China is living in thatched roofed homes then you have no idea what you're talking about. China is an economic powerhouse expected to overtake the US in the next few years.
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I was being dramatic with the thatched roof comment. Yet in china it is not uncommon for manufacturing to house their employees in large small room dorms and then charge them for it while working 16 hour days, making employees jump off the roof during their 2 min break.

Obviously I am not an expert... but are the Chinese workers paid the same as Americans would be? Forget about regulations, that is another type of cost. I am willing to bet that Chinese laborers are paid less then what would be considered average here for the same job. Maybe close but less all the same.

I do not disagree that regulations hinder, essentially that is their purpose to ensure proper running of such business.

I also do not disagree that regulations have gone overboard, but people also seem to forget that some of the US economy issues are rooted in deregulation as well. Though some could argue that risky investments are a right, just look at the results.

As with almost all political/social issues, die hard Conservatives and Liberals do NOT have the right solution. Everything in moderation.

Uninions in of themselves are not bad, its how some of them are behaving. Companies too.
 
Deadly Ramon said:
Maybe this part-time employee should consider working full time in order to increase (or be eligible for) his benefits and paychecks?
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Alot of sales jobs IIRC are basically part-time positions. Even getting that "awesome" promotion to the Genius Bar is still a part-time job. The only full-time jobs I know in retail are Assistant Managers / Head Managers of stores.
 
pgwalsh said:
Companies left the US because of our regulations and taxation. YouTube has a great video of Steve Wynn explaining how it's so much easier to get business done in China than in the US. If you want the jobs back in the US you have to make it easier for businesses to succeed.
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My father's company relocated from China to Singapore to do business instead.

If by "easy to do business" you mean pay off the local government lackeys and you get to do what you want, then yes then it is quite easy to do business. That isn't a model you should want here.

For all of those "go to school, complain less etc etc" what you're witnessing here is wages reverting to a global mean. Which means even eventually those cushy higher paying jobs as countries like China begin to move up the value chain, which they are doing right now.

I don't think the solution is unions and protectionism; I don't know what the solution is. But we're witnessing a global shift right now and unless we acknowledge it and start thinking about some very different paradigms, the entire USA, outside of a few mega-rich owners of capital, will have severely decreased living standards. This is exacerbated by the huge debt we've already taken on. I despair for our future, TBH.
 
TwistedAegis said:
My father's company relocated from China to Singapore to do business instead.

If by "easy to do business" you mean pay off the local government lackeys and you get to do what you want, then yes then it is quite easy to do business. That isn't a model you should want here.

For all of those "go to school, complain less etc etc" what you're witnessing here is wages reverting to a global mean. Which means even eventually those cushy higher paying jobs as countries like China begin to move up the value chain, which they are doing right now.

I don't think the solution is unions and protectionism; I don't know what the solution is. But we're witnessing a global shift right now and unless we acknowledge it and start thinking about some very different paradigms, the entire USA, outside of a few mega-rich owners of capital, will have severely decreased living standards. This is exacerbated by the huge debt we've already taken on. I despair for our future, TBH.
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I never said the way they go about doing business is morally right, just that it's easier. Lobbyists here are doing the same thing in this country.

I really appreciate your last paragraph. Well said.
 
I know this tool, worked with him a short-time when I had an Apple retail gig in the Bay Area. I know for a fact this guy won't lose his job but will be ostracized to the max. They'll just start cutting his hours back gradually each week until he's left with nothing, then he'll just quit.
 
You could be living in Georgia where the minimum wage is 5.15$/hr.

If you're not looking for a way to advance in your career/position, then you're doing it wrong.
 
When I hire a person, I sit him/her down within the first day and explain the economics.

People get offended, and are taken back, but it does change their attitude.

It is so hard to pay someone $14/hour in California. To pay someone $14/hour, means you are also contributing to their FICA, paying worker's comp, probably also covering them under your liability insurance, and (now) having to provide them insurance. By time you account for mistakes that person may make, that number is probably more like $25/hour.

From personal experience, by time I cover brick and mortar overhead, pay vendors, pay insurance, pay taxes, and expect to take something home - I have to bill close to $100/hour every hour to cover that expense. If I had Apple's load spreading/buying power, that may change slightly - but not by a lot.

To ask for more than that figure to do that job is ridiculous, and perhaps every of other semester of high school history should be replaced with common sense economics.
 
I know there was a company that had employees attempt to start a union and the company just fired them all.
 
Why would like need a union? Surely staff at apples stores "just work"....

more seriously, i dont know how people can be so against unions. They are there to stop corporations ripping off employees. Employees are entitled to the value of the work they do, regardless if they happen to be able to accept working for less.
 
Ross1 said:
more seriously, i dont know how people can be so against unions. They are there to stop corporations ripping off employees. Employees are entitled to the value of the work they do, regardless if they happen to be able to accept working for less.
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Unions in the US did a lot of good and then became bloated, stagnant and have basically done alot of damage to their own image and cause. Rather than focus on union members being better qualified and thus worth the higher pay, they decided to focus on the power in and of itself. Look at the teacher's union. I would probably be supportive of them, except I cannot support them when they go out of their way to defend and protect the most useless, horrible teachers out there no matter what they do.

There are other countries such as Germany I believe where unions seek to be competitive and show the enhanced professionalism of their members, almost like a sales advantage. Here they are solely used to protect seniority and advance absolutely sickening, ridiculous benefits.

At the same time though I have to step back and look at how income has been stagnating for all but the top 10% (really, the top 0.1%) and wonder if the unions are really the biggest issue ATM.
 
Dan_D said:
The problem is that so much of our money doesn't stay in our country. It goes to Mexico, Canada, Malaysia, Taiwan and places like that.
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You can take canada off that list, at least when it comes to Auto Industry, CAW is so bad here that each employee costs twice as much as there US counterpart, so plants are constantly being closed and moved to mexico.
 
Ross1 said:
Why would like need a union? Surely staff at apples stores "just work"....

more seriously, i dont know how people can be so against unions. They are there to stop corporations ripping off employees. Employees are entitled to the value of the work they do, regardless if they happen to be able to accept working for less.
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Employees are entitled to the value of the work they do
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Yes, but often in the recent years the employees were getting paid much more than they could actually account for, simply because of the unions.
 
krogen said:
Yes, but often in the recent years the employees were getting paid much more than they could actually account for, simply because of the unions.
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Not to mention what they think their work is valued at is different than what the actual value is.
 
There are those here blatantly against unions, and those blatantly for them.. the truth is in the middle.

A union is no different than a corporation, as an above posted has mentioned. Your union may act like Google, or your union may act like Enron, or it may even act like Madoff.

It is not about whether a union exists or not, it is about the quality of the leaders of both the unions and corporations... both are, however, often, hit and miss.

To give you an example, try Verizon, whose corporate leadership is in a perpetual war with labor leadership, and the customers feel the pain daily.

To give you a positive example.. try Nurses (RN's) unions.. where because they can no longer demand from them the 18 hour shifts, the chances of them messing up your medication, shots, rooms or IVs has dropped significantly.
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Last but not least, try adding "The people who are" in-front of those singular generalizations like "apple store worker" or "nurse" or "Verizon worker" to better understand what you, yourself are saying. So it becomes: "The people who work at apple stores", or "The people who are nurses". Kind of different when you look at it as a human-BEING and not a human-DOING.. isn't it?
 
Dan_D said:
Well said. If you need further proof that unions are a cancer look no further than the UAW. Union auto workers practically bankrupt the very companies they worked for. And I'm sorry but a companies employees shouldn't have the ability to hold their employers hostage. Additionally unions are part of what has driven manufacturing over seas because the consumer demand for product at lower prices has taken all the profit margins out of the products forcing companies to move to countries where labor laws are non-existent and the American dollar stretches farther than it does here. The problem is that so much of our money doesn't stay in our country. It goes to Mexico, Canada, Malaysia, Taiwan and places like that.
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Been saying the same thing for years. My dad still stands by the unions even though they essentially got his best paying job bankrupt... oh and theres compensation for him either :(

I will always understand the idea behind them but I won't support them based off of purely what they have become.
 
I believe this guy will be found in violation of one of Apples infinate employe conduct rules, and be fired in short order.

HisSvt76 said:
No we don't but we do need employers to pay a fair wage that you can live on and provide benefits are are not cut to complete bare minimum. A fair days work for a fair wage a real world fair wage and benefits!
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Sorry but expecting to be paid $20 dollars an hour and have benefits like medical, and dental, and perhaps even a pension, for what amounts to unskilled labor not even requiring a high school dimploma is beyond stupid. The more training and skill required for a job the more the pay, expecting to work at McDonalds and make a "liveable wage with benefits" is insanity.
 
I found him a union...right here:

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Stone Cold said:
Apple won't let this happen. Unions are poison for quality.
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Union millwrights, ironworkers, electricians, pipefitters, steamfitters, tin-knockers, carpenters and all other skilled trades would like a word with you. That would include the in-plant 'mechanics' from the UAW/CAW too, by the way.

Unionized tradespeople with certificates of qualification in their line of work know what the fuck we're doing. You should see some of the messes we clean up after some scabby contractor brings in their 'qualified workers' to do an industrial install at a 'reduced cost'. Yeah, right. Self-proclaimed millwrights who don't even know what a dial indicator is. :rolleyes:

I respect the fact that you have the right to your own opinion and will defend that right to the death, but I have to charge you with ignorance if you're including the unionized trades in your statement.
 
Dan_D said:
Great, just what this country needs. Another union. :rolleyes:
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Whatever dude. Geniuses deserve safe fengshui working conditions, and they need a union to ensure that their employer is not subjecting them to serious physical dangers such as carpel tunnel syndrome and seasonal affective disorder by setting up proper mood lighting.
 
Amazing!!!!
“Fair wages for fair days work”
WTF is wrong with people today??????????
What is a fair wage? What is a fair days work?
If your busting your ass, but still not making enough money, THAT IS NOT YOUR EMPLOYERS FAULT!!!, ITS YOURS!!!!
If you don’t like it, then go out and get a different job, or start your own business and see how difficult it is to run a business.
Agreeing to work for someone is just that, an agreement between both parties, you do x for y. X = work, Y = pay. (no one is putting a gun to your head and making you work there!)
If Y is not enough to suit your life style, then do not agree to it! Getting higher wages is easy. Learn a viable trade, skill or have knowledge that is lucrative for the market you wish to work in, then negotiate your x for y and see if both parties agree, if not, then move on, or start your own business.
It is not the employers obligation to pay anyone a certain wage for any job, unless forced by the government, that being said, a business that pay’s their employees well (not by force, I.E. unions or Govt.) , will have a waiting list of people for employment and be able to choose the best of them.
The same goes for employees who are the best in their prospective field, they can pick from the best companies to work for and negotiate the best wages/salary. It’s called competition and that is what makes things better for everyone.
 
The race to the bottom continues I see. lets scrap unions so everyone can have contract McJobs and we can finally destroy the middle class.
 
snaggletooth said:
Union millwrights, ironworkers, electricians, pipefitters, steamfitters, tin-knockers, carpenters and all other skilled trades would like a word with you. That would include the in-plant 'mechanics' from the UAW/CAW too, by the way.

Unionized tradespeople with certificates of qualification in their line of work know what the fuck we're doing. You should see some of the messes we clean up after some scabby contractor brings in their 'qualified workers' to do an industrial install at a 'reduced cost'. Yeah, right. Self-proclaimed millwrights who don't even know what a dial indicator is. :rolleyes:

I respect the fact that you have the right to your own opinion and will defend that right to the death, but I have to charge you with ignorance if you're including the unionized trades in your statement.
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"scabby" funny how that word is synonymous with unions.
Some union workers are some of the hardest working and best qualified people out there and they are some of the laziest sob's in the world, as with non union labor. except non union lazy asses get fired, not protected by the union.
I am in the trades, our customers are upper tier and will only except the best work for the best price. Everyone in the service industry has had to go behind and fix others crapy work, union or not. Just go to a union car factory and then go to a toyota/non union factory and see the difference. American workers in both shops, but not the same work ethic or quality.
You can have all the iso bla bla standards you want, but if you cannot fire someone because they are lazy, drunk on the job, fail a drug test, sleeping on the job and a shit load of other crap, then your company is doomed to fail, unless you only get government contracts, i.e gov/union and bailouts, but the coffers are dry and no matter how high you raise wages... union jobs are going down the tubes, unsustainable business model... period.
 
Draax said:
The race to the bottom continues I see. lets scrap unions so everyone can have contract McJobs and we can finally destroy the middle class.
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the unions are destroying the middle class.
 
Kaitian said:
Alot of sales jobs IIRC are basically part-time positions. Even getting that "awesome" promotion to the Genius Bar is still a part-time job. The only full-time jobs I know in retail are Assistant Managers / Head Managers of stores.
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Alot of that has to do with regulations that are based on the number of full time employees.
If most employees are part time, a business can save alot of money and paperwork.
 
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