Apple knew it was selling defective MacBook displays, judge concludes

luisxd

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Apple could spit every one of their customer in the face with every computer they sell and people would still buy it
 
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UnknownSouljer

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Apple could spit every one of their customer in the face with every computer they sell and people would still buy it
Samsung could make an exploding phone that literally causes planes to emergency land mid-flight and have an FAA ban and people would still buy it.
The difference between our two examples is the Samsung one actually happened.
 

NickM

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Literally every single Macintosh from the late 1980s when Apple started to use the then-new SMD capacitors until the mid to late 2000s has capacitor failure. The SMD capacitors would fail because the rubber plugs in the bottom would shrink and let air into the capacitor, resulting in it either drying up or leaking out onto the board and causing damage. If you're into vintage Macs, the first thing you must do is recap both the logic board and the power supply, as well as get rid of the lithium clock battery if it hasn't already leaked or exploded.

The first generation tray loading iMac G3s were even worse. They used faulty capacitors in all aspects of the machine from the logic board to the analog board and the power supply. Coupled with having absolutely no cooling besides the very poor convection vents, they had failure rates matching the original Compact Mac models from the 1980s. It wasn't until the second gen slot loading designs that reliability improved, and the final all in one with a CRT, the eMac G4 that they finally added a cooling fan.

The PowerMac G5s also had capacitor issues in the power supply, but that paled in comparison to the faults with the logic board. Due to the construction of the machine, it made it an incredibly irritating ordeal to disassemble when the logic board failed, and it would eventually.

I have never had a swelling battery problem except with Apple (pretty much all of them).
I can't even count how many Latitudes, Precisions, Yogas, and Carbons I have had to replace batteries on.
For both swelling (rendering the keyboard and trackpad glitchy at best) all the way to losing communication with the battery and no longer charging. Next?
 

Axman

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macOS is basically BSD and has a complete terminal.

Eh, Windows has Powershell; I've used it to force uninstall some stuff that you can't through the GUI. Since MS isn't in the business from top to bottom, I think it's safe to say you're not as locked in as you are with Apple.
 

Krazy925

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Samsung could make an exploding phone that literally causes planes to emergency land mid-flight and have an FAA ban and people would still buy it.
The difference between our two examples is the Samsung one actually happened.
I LOL’d.
 

cjcox

[H]ard|Gawd
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I can't even count how many Latitudes, Precisions, Yogas, and Carbons I have had to replace batteries on.
For both swelling (rendering the keyboard and trackpad glitchy at best) all the way to losing communication with the battery and no longer charging. Next?
So, you'd say 80% chance one those then? (within 3 years)
 

GiGaBiTe

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I can't even count how many Latitudes, Precisions, Yogas, and Carbons I have had to replace batteries on.
For both swelling (rendering the keyboard and trackpad glitchy at best) all the way to losing communication with the battery and no longer charging. Next?

The problem with the lithium battery packs is the design where two or three batteries are connected in parallel and then into a series array of usually three sets to make up the voltage. If the batteries aren't perfectly matched, you quickly run into the problem where one battery discharges before the others, and over time the difference in voltage becomes so great that discharging the battery just a little bit can send it down to zero volts and then start reverse charging it. This is when you have packs start going on fire if the battery controller isn't wired to detect it, which in many cases are not.

A balance lead connected between the parallel pairs of batteries doesn't see the individual battery voltages, only the averages. A duff cell will drag down the total voltage and confuse the battery balancing circuitry, which depending on how it is configured, will either keep trying to charge the group of cells and eventually lead to "explodey battery", or kill charging the batteries and report an error.

One good thing about dead battery packs is you can get a bunch of good lithium cells out of them. Usually when a pack fails, it's only a couple of cells that went bad and the rest are fine.
 

jfreund

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Samsung could make an exploding phone that literally causes planes to emergency land mid-flight and have an FAA ban and people would still buy it.
The difference between our two examples is the Samsung one actually happened.
People didn't still buy the Note 7 because Samsung stopped selling them and recalled what was already sold.

Samsung's response was not "You're holding it wrong".
 

Aurelius

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I can't deal with any company that doesn't let me use my machines as I please. I am not one to be controlled in that way. Windows you can install whatever you want (ARM Macs will soon be fully locked down to the app store, just you wait) and androids can side load whatever you want.

I can see what you're saying about Focus; but hell, Stalin was focused, Mao was focused. I'd rather make my own decisions and deal with the consequences.
It's a computer or a phone. You're not toiling in the shackles of oppression because you can't sideload an app. It's a bit like railing against KitchenAid because they didn't open source the code for their latest blender — there's something to be said for the value of openness, but it's important to have perspective.

I'm also not expecting Apple to lock down ARM-based Mac apps at all. It knows the expectations and market are different on computers. That and the company no doubt saw how Microsoft failed to gain any traction for Windows 10S.
 

UnknownSouljer

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People didn't still buy the Note 7 because Samsung stopped selling them and recalled what was already sold.
Your memory of the sequence of events is incorrect. Samsung did a "voluntary swap" of their Note 7 after they claimed they fixed it, then simply went on selling them. Only of course to find out that they really hadn't fixed the phone at all. And then and only they did they recall it - this entire process taking the better part of a year.
Afterwards, there were still plenty of users like I mentioned after the recall and the FAA ban that didn't want to give up their phones. So good job also not taking my response inside of the context in the discussion as well more than illustrating that there are plenty of users across the board that at minimum are equal to zealousness of any Apple user. Although again I haven't found any Apple user continuing to buy and keep an exploding phone.... so I guess good job defending and being on the Samsung side of the equation.
Samsung's response was not "You're holding it wrong".
I think it's incredibly absurd to equate a phone that has a fairly minor antenna issue that can be solved with a case with a phone that again, literally explodes, as if those two things are remotely similar or should have similar responses either by the manufacturer or by the public. But you're right. Samsung's response was: "we fixed it."

In short my previous statement is quite accurate. Samsung sold a defective phone and when their hand was forced then and only then did they do an actual full recall. And throughout this exploding phone process Samsung users still continued to buy the phone and in the end didn't want to give it up. And clearly as sales numbers indicate this whole fiasco did little to deter Samsung users to continue to buy and use their products.
 
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Aurelius

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People didn't still buy the Note 7 because Samsung stopped selling them and recalled what was already sold.

Samsung's response was not "You're holding it wrong".
That's not entirely true. Samsung's initial response was to just have people swap their phones. It wanted to avoid exploring the possibility that the design itself was the problem, and it wasn't until there were more battery fires that it finally accepted the truth and issued a recall. In other words, it was willing to risk user safety just so it could keep its latest phone on the market.

That's not to excuse "holding it wrong" (even if that issue wasn't as bad in practice). Rather, it's a reminder that Apple isn't the only tech company to drag its heels when there's a flaw.
 

Krazy925

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People didn't still buy the Note 7 because Samsung stopped selling them and recalled what was already sold.

Samsung's response was not "You're holding it wrong".
Samsung almost stranded my friend and I on a vacation because we had their piece of shit phone.
Then they later did all the things noted above (LOL!) and sent out a kill signal to brick his phone several months later. Samsung 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😜
 

WorldExclusive

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Jony Ive is still the design head of Apple. Though he left to start his own design firm, Apple now just employs his firm to design their products.

All of which are things Jony added and also designed in the first place. You realize he was there from 1992-2019 right? But also to be clear, he doesn't design in a vacuum. He works at the behest of his employer, notably while still living, Steve Jobs. A lot of their products were produced together under his specific design directives.
I don't deny that there have been design failures at Apple, but again, no more than with any other OEM. And I think trying to point the finger at very specific people is silly.
Apple's design process is a lot longer than any other manufacturer in the space as they literally customize every component in their machines - still, they're human and it doesn't mean that they don't run into issues or mistakes that take years to correct when dealing with an organization of their size and at quantities the size Apple buys and manufacturers things at.

EDIT: Spelling/grammar not content.
When Jobs died Ive's design took hold. From 2013 on was his ideas. The last great Apple devices were in 2012, the last upgradeable Mac Pro and the last Macbook Pro that was worth it's price. People make Youtube videos about building 2009-2012 stuff for today's use. Now that he's out, Apple can tell him what they need and he designs around it, instead of him dedicating everything and forcing the engineers to work around his flawed designs.

Tim Cook was the operations officer, a supply chain guy, before becoming CEO. How would he tell Ive what to do from a design standpoint when he desperately needs him to keep things stable?
Ive was featured in many presentations moving forward discussing the importance of designing thin and light devices, totally ignoring professional needs, thermodynamics and the right to repair. Yes...it's on him.
 
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UnknownSouljer

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When Jobs died Ive's design took hold. From 2013 on was his ideas. The last great Apple devices were in 2012, the last upgradeable Mac Pro and the last Macbook Pro that was worth it's price. People make Youtube videos about building 2009-2012 stuff for today's use. Now that he's out, Apple can tell him what they need and he designs around it, instead of him dedicating everything and forcing the engineers to work around his flawed designs.
You're really not aware of Apple's design time. A lot of their devices are worked on for 2-4 years in advance, especially when considering how long it takes them to produce product. Jobs effected everything up to the iPhone 10 as an example but obviously that carries over to their desktop computing space as well. But fine, I'll go with your premise that its all been Ive and not actually a group of engineers/designers under a directorial head.

It seems to me you want to blame Ive for failures but then not credit him for triumphs which are well documented on Wikipedia. But I'll save you at least some level of trouble.
What about the 2019 Mac Pro? You are aware that's 100% his design. And that machine at launch was the best OEM workstation with full custom hardware that was significantly faster in comparison with competitors from HP and Dell for the same cost. It was capable of being equipped with Vega II's which until the launch of nVidia 3000 series and AMD 6000 series was the fastest single slot GPU available. And the Afterburner card allows the Mac Pro to render 6x 8k streams simultaneously or 23x 4k streams simultaneously. Something no PC can touch regardless of hardware. And no, the 2012 Mac Pro wasn't the last upgrade-able Mac Pro.
How about the 2017 iMac Pro with totally fully redesigned cooling that in fact never throttles under full load and virtually never has to spin up its fans to an audible level that also managed to squeeze in professional hardware?
What about the M1 Macs which are currently destroying everything on the market? In both speed and in value? As well as in battery life and operating completely silently?
How about every iPhone for the past 8 years (or just the iPhone period, which he was the designer of)? And every iPad? How about iPad Pro? How about the design of Apple Pencil? How about the XDR display which effectively lowered the entry cost of a professional colorist display from $10-$20k to $6000.
Tim Cook was the operations officer, a supply chain guy, before becoming CEO. How would he tell Ive what to do from a design standpoint when he desperately needs him to keep things stable?
Ive was featured in many presentations moving forward discussing the importance of designing thin and light devices, totally ignoring professional needs, thermodynamics and the right to repair. Yes...it's on him.
Kay. So as was written above Ive and Apple are doing just fine. Certainly with a much better hit rate than competing PC's, so I'm really not sure what your point is. You want to point the finger at a few design faults when as I've brought up in this thread Apple is more than comparable to anything in the PC world, while at the same time you want to ignore any unpleasant comparisons.

And for the second time, Jony Ive isn't "out". He has his own design firm which now Apple employs. He and his firm are still responsible for a lion's share of Apple's designs. So again, if you're going to blame Ive, also credit him.
 
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t1337duder

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Samsung could make an exploding phone that literally causes planes to emergency land mid-flight and have an FAA ban and people would still buy it.
The difference between our two examples is the Samsung one actually happened.
Apple sold bad a bad display design on purpose and lost in court. Samsung did not sell bad hardware on purpose and such an issue was never brought to court.

But hey - these are the mental gymnastics Apple fanboys put themselves through to justify themselves. People are better of admitting they are Apple fanboy rather than resorting to that line of reasoning. At least they put their lack of understanding out in the open for us to see.
 

Axman

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Samsung did not sell bad hardware on purpose and such an issue was never brought to court.

IIRC Samsung was still charging customers whose cell phones caught fire. I don't see how that's really better or worse than knowingly selling people faulty hardware.
 

Aurelius

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Apple sold bad a bad display design on purpose and lost in court. Samsung did not sell bad hardware on purpose and such an issue was never brought to court.

But hey - these are the mental gymnastics Apple fanboys put themselves through to justify themselves. People are better of admitting they are Apple fanboy rather than resorting to that line of reasoning. At least they put their lack of understanding out in the open for us to see.
That's not entirely accurate. I'm sure Apple didn't knowingly release a bad design, and it might have taken a while for reports to surface before it realized there was a problem. The issue was that Apple was in no rush to fix the design, pull products or compensate users.

As it stands, it's a bit odd to accuse Apple fans of mental gymnastics while pretending others don't. Samsung in particular is a bad example. Never mind its reluctance to pull the Note 7 from shelves — this is a company synonymous with corruption and nepotism. I don't think people should boycott Samsung, but if the people who refuse to buy Apple gear were internally consistent they'd practically be calling for Samsung executives' heads.
 

Krazy925

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Apple sold bad a bad display design on purpose and lost in court. Samsung did not sell bad hardware on purpose and such an issue was never brought to court.

But hey - these are the mental gymnastics Apple fanboys put themselves through to justify themselves. People are better of admitting they are Apple fanboy rather than resorting to that line of reasoning. At least they put their lack of understanding out in the open for us to see.
Did you just forget about the second recall of the Note 7 or are you purposefully being obtuse?

Everyone sees a gymnast here but unfortunately it's you. Apple's issues is with repeated opening and closing. The note didn't even make it that far.

Be mad at Apple, but none of these companies are your friends. None.
 

OFaceSIG

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It's a computer or a phone. You're not toiling in the shackles of oppression because you can't sideload an app. It's a bit like railing against KitchenAid because they didn't open source the code for their latest blender — there's something to be said for the value of openness, but it's important to have perspective.

I'm also not expecting Apple to lock down ARM-based Mac apps at all. It knows the expectations and market are different on computers. That and the company no doubt saw how Microsoft failed to gain any traction for Windows 10S.
Window 10S can be upgraded for free in about 3 clicks. The amount of steps that need to be taken to do what you want with an iPhone are unacceptable.
 

Verge

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Window 10S can be upgraded for free in about 3 clicks. The amount of steps that need to be taken to do what you want with an iPhone are unacceptable.
i'd be appalled if you could do it easier on an apple product. Every time some app tries to spy on me now, i get a notification on my iphone and my macbook. Everyone else wishes they had that.
 

Aurelius

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Window 10S can be upgraded for free in about 3 clicks. The amount of steps that need to be taken to do what you want with an iPhone are unacceptable.
Oh, it's not the ease of unlocking 10S I'm thinking about, it's more the basic concept of trying to lock down a desktop OS. On a Mac, you can limit app downloads to the App Store if you like, but it's quite easy to either fling the gates wide open or strike a middle ground that only allows non-App Store titles with Developer IDs (basically, notarized apps).
 

OFaceSIG

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i'd be appalled if you could do it easier on an apple product. Every time some app tries to spy on me now, i get a notification on my iphone and my macbook. Everyone else wishes they had that.
Eh, I get it, you're a Apple lover. Use what you want. But have fun trying to do on your Mac what 90% of this forum is all about.
 

NickM

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So, you'd say 80% chance one those then? (within 3 years)
I've seen precisely one MacBook/Pro with a bad battery. And I have opportunity to see plenty. If it was anything approaching 80%, I would have seen around 180 in the last few years.
Try again?
 

cjcox

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I've seen precisely one MacBook/Pro with a bad battery. And I have opportunity to see plenty. If it was anything approaching 80%, I would have seen around 180 in the last few years.
Try again?
What I was saying was that's what we're seeing. So my question to you was are you seeing that sort of rate with your "other" laptops withing 3 years. You seem to suggest so. So I was checking.
 

wizzi01

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I've seen precisely one MacBook/Pro with a bad battery. And I have opportunity to see plenty. If it was anything approaching 80%, I would have seen around 180 in the last few years.
Try again?
So, because you haven't seen more than one the issues don't exist?
 

NickM

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So, because you haven't seen more than one the issues don't exist?
Because I have not seen the numbers that you claim, not even close to, I'm calling BS. There may have been an issue and very well could be still an issue. However, what you are claiming is striaght up bullshit. Unless my company somoehow manages to cherry pick our machines to only get the "good" ones, your claims belong in the round file.
 

wizzi01

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Because I have not seen the numbers that you claim, not even close to, I'm calling BS. There may have been an issue and very well could be still an issue. However, what you are claiming is striaght up bullshit. Unless my company somoehow manages to cherry pick our machines to only get the "good" ones, your claims belong in the round file.

What exactly am I claiming besides you think there is no issue? For all you know he had 5 MacBook and 4 of them had a bad battery.
 

NickM

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What exactly am I claiming besides you think there is no issue? For all you know he had 5 MacBook and 4 of them had a bad battery.
5 is a pretty piss poor statistical pool to base a claim on, don't you agree? I'll take my 249 machines over 5 every day of the week (except apparently Saturday and Sunday since we're basing things on "5")
 

NickM

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So, you'd say 80% chance one those then? (within 3 years)
No I would not. Maybe 10%.
ETA: that's within the 3 year warranty period. Latitudes are to the higher side and slimline Precisions (5000 series) to the lower. Breakdown with the Lenovos are the same-Carbons and Yogas higher and WS (P1, P15) are lower.
 
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Lakados

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There were a lot of bad batteries floating around in the early 2000’s while manufacturers were trying to get everything ROHS compliant and strip the mercury out. Capacitors too. It was hardly a problem unique to Apple, the difference is most cheaper PC’s had the capacitors fail and got tossed long before the batteries had a chance too fail. Apple choosing to use nicer more expensive capacitors tended to not have the failure there but in the battery instead.
 

cjcox

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There were a lot of bad batteries floating around in the early 2000’s...
For us it was the 2015/2016 set. The ones where Apple did the massive recall. We just noticed that it seemed to be everything Apple made, not just the select ones they mentioned in the recall.

IMHO, they lied, because they couldn't afford to recall everything.
 
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