Apple knew it was selling defective MacBook displays, judge concludes

DukenukemX

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Judge Edward Davila has decided to let the “flexgate” lawsuit go forward, ruling that Apple should have known that they would fail and yet kept selling them anyhow.

“The court finds that the allegations of pre-release testing in combination with the allegations of substantial customer complaints are sufficient to show that Apple had exclusive knowledge of the alleged defect,”


https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/2...ge-light-class-action-lawsuit-defective-cable
https://www.macrumors.com/guide/flexgate-macbook-pro-display-issue/

macbook-pro-flexgate-800x449.jpg

 

Aurelius

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I'm a happy Mac user, but there's a good reason I skipped MacBooks between the 12-inch model from 2015 and the last butterfly keyboard models from 2019. It feels like Apple only recently recovered its Mac design mojo (although I'm sure that revival work started in earnest around 2017-2018).
 

Fleat

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I'm a happy Mac user, but there's a good reason I skipped MacBooks between the 12-inch model from 2015 and the last butterfly keyboard models from 2019. It feels like Apple only recently recovered its Mac design mojo (although I'm sure that revival work started in earnest around 2017-2018).
Absolutely wise to skip the butterfly keyboard generation. I would argue that you should likely continue to skip the MacBook Pro 16 until the big boy M1 chip hits the lineup.

I have one provided by work and it is a fantastic laptop let down by Apple's thermal management and Intel's processors. It just runs way too hot for the chassis size and fan noise is ever-present when hooked up to a thunderbolt dock.

This flexgate issue certainly seems annoying but I imagine extending the repair window would likely appease most individuals.
 

DukenukemX

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This flexgate issue certainly seems annoying but I imagine extending the repair window would likely appease most individuals.
I'm not sure but it sounds like the cable isn't able to be replaced due to how Apple built the laptop. This is why it's such a difficult issue since the cost of repair sounds expensive. I'm not sure if Apple soldered the cable to the motherboard of it's glued to the chassis in some way.
 

Aurelius

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Absolutely wise to skip the butterfly keyboard generation. I would argue that you should likely continue to skip the MacBook Pro 16 until the big boy M1 chip hits the lineup.

I have one provided by work and it is a fantastic laptop let down by Apple's thermal management and Intel's processors. It just runs way too hot for the chassis size and fan noise is ever-present when hooked up to a thunderbolt dock.

This flexgate issue certainly seems annoying but I imagine extending the repair window would likely appease most individuals.
Don't worry, I'm probably not going to get a new MacBook of any sort until the rest of the Pro line gets Apple Silicon. I'm hoping for that rumored 14-inch model. I need something reasonably portable, but just a tad bigger than my old 13-inch system.
 

Dan_D

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I've got news for you. Apple knew it and Apple didn't give a shit. It never has. I saw iMac's manufactured after the whole counterfeit capacitor business swept the electronics industry. Apple knowingly continued to use these capacitors months or even years after the rest of the industry corrected these issues and switched to quality made capacitors. Apple isn't and never has been a good company. It doesn't treat its customers with respect because it doesn't have to. It's somehow gained a cult like following and exploit that to its fullest.
 

GiGaBiTe

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hopefully this means they will extend the repair to the 2017 ones.
bunch of pricks

Can't wait for their condescending asshole website KB page on the recall where they always preface any major issue "A small number of users...", or they blame their own customer base "for using their products incorrectly" and giving condescending instructions to their customers in the format of talking to a small child.

I also think it was them in lawsuit they lost where they had to "prominently place" some bit of information on the front page of their website. They formatted the front page so that no matter what the resolution of your monitor was, it always kept the information out of sight at the bottom of the page in small print, so you had to scroll to see it. Just goes to show that if they aren't forced by litigation, they will NEVER, EVER admit they did anything wrong.

Steve Jobs would be glad his company culture is still following in his image after he's been dead and gone for nearly a decade now.
 

DukenukemX

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I've got news for you. Apple knew it and Apple didn't give a shit. It never has. I saw iMac's manufactured after the whole counterfeit capacitor business swept the electronics industry. Apple knowingly continued to use these capacitors months or even years after the rest of the industry corrected these issues and switched to quality made capacitors. Apple isn't and never has been a good company. It doesn't treat its customers with respect because it doesn't have to. It's somehow gained a cult like following and exploit that to its fullest.
When did this happen? What products are effected by this? Google'ing shows me issues as far back as 2006 but there are people who have leaking capacitors today.
 

GiGaBiTe

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When did this happen? What products are effected by this? Google'ing shows me issues as far back as 2006 but there are people who have leaking capacitors today.

Literally every single Macintosh from the late 1980s when Apple started to use the then-new SMD capacitors until the mid to late 2000s has capacitor failure. The SMD capacitors would fail because the rubber plugs in the bottom would shrink and let air into the capacitor, resulting in it either drying up or leaking out onto the board and causing damage. If you're into vintage Macs, the first thing you must do is recap both the logic board and the power supply, as well as get rid of the lithium clock battery if it hasn't already leaked or exploded.

The first generation tray loading iMac G3s were even worse. They used faulty capacitors in all aspects of the machine from the logic board to the analog board and the power supply. Coupled with having absolutely no cooling besides the very poor convection vents, they had failure rates matching the original Compact Mac models from the 1980s. It wasn't until the second gen slot loading designs that reliability improved, and the final all in one with a CRT, the eMac G4 that they finally added a cooling fan.

The PowerMac G5s also had capacitor issues in the power supply, but that paled in comparison to the faults with the logic board. Due to the construction of the machine, it made it an incredibly irritating ordeal to disassemble when the logic board failed, and it would eventually.
 

vegeta535

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I've got news for you. Apple knew it and Apple didn't give a shit. It never has. I saw iMac's manufactured after the whole counterfeit capacitor business swept the electronics industry. Apple knowingly continued to use these capacitors months or even years after the rest of the industry corrected these issues and switched to quality made capacitors. Apple isn't and never has been a good company. It doesn't treat its customers with respect because it doesn't have to. It's somehow gained a cult like following and exploit that to its fullest.
Marketing. It has become a premium brand and no matter how poor people are they need to keep up appearances. So many iPhone users are so smug and look down on anyone who doesn't have the latest and greatest. Kids don't want to be looked as the the poor kids. The average person is so shallow and thing the phone they have really matters.
 

Dan_D

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When did this happen? What products are effected by this? Google'ing shows me issues as far back as 2006 but there are people who have leaking capacitors today.

iMac's were what I encountered doing this. Upwards of 2007 or so.
 

N4CR

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Apple isn't and never has been a good company. It doesn't treat its customers with respect because it doesn't have to. It's somehow gained a cult like following and exploit that to its fullest.
Literally the Star Citizen of hardware manufacturers.
 

OFaceSIG

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I agree with Dan. Apple has always acted in it's interest. If you happen to align with it's interests you can play along. Steve Jobs set the precedent a long time ago. It's their way or the highway. Problem is they create a arguably compelling products that sell well so they have little motivation to operate any differently. Facebook is no different. Billions use the platform despite all the abuses. Twitter, same. As long as people don't vote with their feet and walk away they will continue to abuse you.
 

Aurelius

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I agree with Dan. Apple has always acted in it's interest. If you happen to align with it's interests you can play along. Steve Jobs set the precedent a long time ago. It's their way or the highway. Problem is they create a arguably compelling products that sell well so they have little motivation to operate any differently. Facebook is no different. Billions use the platform despite all the abuses. Twitter, same. As long as people don't vote with their feet and walk away they will continue to abuse you.
All companies act in their own self-interest. It'd be better to say that Apple is idiosyncratic and is willing to ignore certain audiences in pursuit of what it believes is best (whether it is or not).

I have to say that I prefer that idiosyncrasy myself. I definitely get the appeal of the non-Apple world (I know just what I'd buy if I switched), but there is this pervasive sense in the Android/Windows sphere of mediocrity, compromise, design by committee. It's why you get flimsy plastic laptops with giant marketing stickers and nagging bloatware, why you're just supposed to deal with ads in the Start menu or wrestle with the occasional driver headache. Apple definitely isn't for everyone, and you can have a great Android phone or Windows PC experience, but I like the sense of focus... even if occasionally leads to problems like this.
 

NickM

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Literally every single Macintosh from the late 1980s when Apple started to use the then-new SMD capacitors until the mid to late 2000s has capacitor failure. The SMD capacitors would fail because the rubber plugs in the bottom would shrink and let air into the capacitor, resulting in it either drying up or leaking out onto the board and causing damage. If you're into vintage Macs, the first thing you must do is recap both the logic board and the power supply, as well as get rid of the lithium clock battery if it hasn't already leaked or exploded.

The first generation tray loading iMac G3s were even worse. They used faulty capacitors in all aspects of the machine from the logic board to the analog board and the power supply. Coupled with having absolutely no cooling besides the very poor convection vents, they had failure rates matching the original Compact Mac models from the 1980s. It wasn't until the second gen slot loading designs that reliability improved, and the final all in one with a CRT, the eMac G4 that they finally added a cooling fan.

The PowerMac G5s also had capacitor issues in the power supply, but that paled in comparison to the faults with the logic board. Due to the construction of the machine, it made it an incredibly irritating ordeal to disassemble when the logic board failed, and it would eventually.
Are you talking about the G5 Pro? Because I have not run into an easier to work on factory built machine in my life.
 

Krazy925

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Are you talking about the G5 Pro? Because I have not run into an easier to work on factory built machine in my life.
He’s talking about the Apple power Mac g5. They were notorious for leaking from the PSU and eventually the AIO. I cleaned up a few ones and swapped them to PC builds inside.

Finding one for myself without that was tricky but I did find one eventually... for $50.
7E1F5D9D-F651-4763-BFAC-830DC67DC579.jpeg
 

OFaceSIG

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All companies act in their own self-interest. It'd be better to say that Apple is idiosyncratic and is willing to ignore certain audiences in pursuit of what it believes is best (whether it is or not).

I have to say that I prefer that idiosyncrasy myself. I definitely get the appeal of the non-Apple world (I know just what I'd buy if I switched), but there is this pervasive sense in the Android/Windows sphere of mediocrity, compromise, design by committee. It's why you get flimsy plastic laptops with giant marketing stickers and nagging bloatware, why you're just supposed to deal with ads in the Start menu or wrestle with the occasional driver headache. Apple definitely isn't for everyone, and you can have a great Android phone or Windows PC experience, but I like the sense of focus... even if occasionally leads to problems like this.
I can't deal with any company that doesn't let me use my machines as I please. I am not one to be controlled in that way. Windows you can install whatever you want (ARM Macs will soon be fully locked down to the app store, just you wait) and androids can side load whatever you want.

I can see what you're saying about Focus; but hell, Stalin was focused, Mao was focused. I'd rather make my own decisions and deal with the consequences.
 

UnknownSouljer

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I can't deal with any company that doesn't let me use my machines as I please. I am not one to be controlled in that way.
You have the illusion of choice without actual choice. If you want to use Windows software you are beholden to using it as they serve it to you. It's just you're okay with what Windows is forcing you to do and not Apple. You're okay with Telemetry. You're okay with forced updates and not being able to fully administrate your own machine (or machines for those having to deal with corporate deployments). And this is just the tip of the ice berg. If this is about being able to install multiple OS's, you can on Mac machines as well. Or alternatively for most people/devs they just virtualize them which is more convenient for anything but perhaps gaming.
Windows you can install whatever you want (ARM Macs will soon be fully locked down to the app store, just you wait)
Not going to happen. Too many businesses and too many consumers behind this becoming a viable business model. Apple doesn't survive without Adobe or a lot of the professional software that won't move over. Just in the industry I work in alone there are quite a few big players and few would play ball. They can't make their machines operate in a void and Pandoras box is already open.
and androids can side load whatever you want.
Even on Android this is mostly closed now. If you want to side load there is a lot you have to do to get there. Running unsigned code on a Samsung device as an example is a really big hassle.
In any case you can technically do this on Apple as well. Just sign up for a dev account and you can side load any unsigned code you want. In fact there were multiple cases of both Google and Facebook showing users how to do this on iOS devices so they could bypass the App Store (and therefore not be subject to their terms, which essentially allowed both of them to install massive spyware on their "customers" phones). In both cases Apple suspended their App Store accounts to bring them back into line/compliance. But the point is if you want to install whatever you want onto your phone you can.
I can see what you're saying about Focus; but hell, Stalin was focused, Mao was focused. I'd rather make my own decisions and deal with the consequences.
These are rather silly comparisons with a very obvious bent. You may as well include Albert Einstein, Nikola Testla, and Henry Ford also in that list. But I suppose there is no difference between focused people?
FWIW you have access to being more on the ragged edge on a Mac than on Windows. macOS is basically BSD and has a complete terminal. If you want to "accidentally" delete your kernel you can. Which is one of my brothers favorite jokes when referring to the difficulty of learning and using Linux/Unix terminals. There is nothing stopping any user from doing anything they want on macOS provided they know what that is and how to do it. There is without a doubt a "play pen" that is designed to keep in most general users, but again nothing preventing more advanced users from being outside of that play pen.
 
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OFaceSIG

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You have the illusion of choice without actual choice. If you want to use Windows software you are beholden to using it as they serve it to you. It's just you're okay with what Windows is forcing you to do and not Apple. You're okay with Telemetry. You're okay with forced updates and not being able to fully administrate your own machine (or machines for those having to deal with corporate deployments). And this is just the tip of the ice berg. If this is about being able to install multiple OS's, you can on Mac machines as well. Or alternatively for most people/devs they just virtualize them which is more convenient for anything but perhaps gaming.

Not going to happen. Too many businesses and too many consumers behind this becoming a viable business model. Apple doesn't survive without Adobe or a lot of the professional software that won't move over. Just in the industry I work in alone there are quite a few big players and few would play ball. They can't make their machines operate in a void and Pandoras box is already open.

Even on Android this is mostly closed now. If you want to side load there is a lot you have to do to get there. Running unsigned code on a Samsung device as an example is a really big hassle.
In any case you can technically do this on Apple as well. Just sign up for a dev account and you can side load any unsigned code you want. In fact there were multiple cases of both Google and Facebook showing users how to do this on iOS devices so they could bypass the App Store (and therefore not be subject to their terms, which essentially allowed both of them to install massive spyware on their "customers" phones). In both cases Apple suspended their App Store accounts to bring them back into line/compliance. But the point is if you want to install whatever you want onto your phone you can.

These are rather silly comparisons with a very obvious bent. You may as well include Albert Einstein, Nikola Testla, and Henry Ford also in that list. But I suppose there is no difference between focused people?
FWIW you have access to being more on the ragged edge on a Mac then on Windows. macOS is basically BSD and has a complete terminal. If you want to "accidentally" delete your kernel you can. Which is one of my brothers favorite jokes when referring to the difficulty of learning and using Linux/Unix terminals. There is nothing stopping any user from doing anything they want on macOS provided they know what that is and how to do it. There is without a doubt a "play pen" that is designed to keep in most general users, but again nothing preventing more advanced users from being outside of that play pen.
ARM macs just came out. We'll see how people fare in a completely apple hardware designed world. Only time will tell.
 

UnknownSouljer

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ARM macs just came out. We'll see how people fare in a completely apple hardware designed world. Only time will tell.
There was nothing preventing them from doing exactly what you're saying on x86 - locking to an app store has literally nothing to do with ISA. But again, in order for that model to be viable they have to have everyone of their major software partners involved. So you're dooming and glooming without a major component necessary to make that happen.
 

OFaceSIG

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There was nothing preventing them from doing exactly what you're saying on x86 - locking to an app store has literally nothing to do with ISA. But again, in order for that model to be viable they have to have everyone of their major software partners involved. So you're dooming and glooming without a major component necessary to make that happen.
I have little faith in Apple to keep their customers' bests interests at the forefront of their minds.
 

UnknownSouljer

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I have little faith in Apple to keep their customers' bests interests at the forefront of their minds.
Cool. So why haven’t they done this in the last 5 years? Also again: how also can they have a user base without the professional market?

You’re making the same statements without answering really basic questions. Apple is a business. They may have certain market controls but they don’t operate in a vacume. If the software people want or need to run isn’t available on a Mac then people aren’t going to buy a Mac. Full stop.

Adobe runs off of a subscription model and are outside of Apples policies on the App Store and they don’t sell on the App Store (as their subscription service is non-compliant) and they never will. If Adobe apps aren’t on Apple’s platform then they’ll lose every professional that needs one of those apps. That isn’t conjecture, that’s fact. And that’s just one software suite. Apple has zero ways to force Adobes hand. After all the Apple users switch back to PC Adobe will continue to make the same amount of money. Apple can’t fence them in.

So for the third time clearly and concisely: how do you propose Apple is going to do this?
 

OFaceSIG

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Cool. So why haven’t they done this in the last 5 years? Also again: how also can they have a user base without the professional market?

You’re making the same statements without answering really basic questions. Apple is a business. They may have certain market controls but they don’t operate in a vacume. If the software people want or need to run isn’t available on a Mac then people aren’t going to buy a Mac. Full stop.

Adobe runs off of a subscription model and are outside of Apples policies on the App Store and they don’t sell on the App Store (as their subscription service is non-compliant) and they never will. If Adobe apps aren’t on Apple’s platform then they’ll lose every professional that needs one of those apps. That isn’t conjecture, that’s fact. And that’s just one software suite. Apple has zero ways to force Adobes hand. After all the Apple users switch back to PC Adobe will continue to make the same amount of money. Apple can’t fence them in.

So for the third time clearly and concisely: how do you propose Apple is going to do this?
Can you tell me with a straight face that Apple treats it's customers better than say, HP? Dell? I mean, plug in your name of choice for a large consumer electronics company. But I'll give you one, Sony has horrendous customer service.

Louis Rossman has documented his mis-adventures with Apple for years. For everyone to see.
 

UnknownSouljer

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First off, not only did you not answer the very basic questions, you're now on a completely unrelated tangent.
Can you tell me with a straight face that Apple treats it's customers better than say, HP? Dell? I mean, plug in your name of choice for a large consumer electronics company. But I'll give you one, Sony has horrendous customer service.
Yes. Apple care is one of the best customer service experiences I've ever had. I've had things repaired both inside and outside of the service window completed for free. I have of course paid for services as well (just battery replacements on an iPhone).
For all items inside of the Applecare service window I have never been given any form of push back and everything was taken care in a very precise and timely manner on the day of.

If you want something less anecdotal, you can check out third party reports on this. Both Consumer Reports and American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI) have Apple leading in customer service over every other PC manufacturer. And they have essentially had this lead for at least as long as I've been buying Mac's: 10 years.
Louis Rossman has documented his mis-adventures with Apple for years. For everyone to see.
And? The one thing that's really annoying about this thread in general is that Apple only really gets flack because of the size of their business and the polarizing nature of their products. But the truth of the matter is EVERY PC manufactuer has had successes and failures at some level with machines they've engineered. Apple get's a spotlight because frankly if they make a mistake, more customers are affected than some random SKU from Dell. I've done my research, there's been defects on the XPS line year after year - some minor, some not so minor. If you're being remotely balanced (which you aren't) Apple is at minimum equal to other PC OEM's in terms of build and hardware failure rates. But based on Consumer Reports - more people are satisfied and have less issues on Mac hardware as compared to PC hardware.
 

WorldExclusive

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Jony Ive left the company for a reason. His designs lead to a lot of engineering failures. From the iPhone 6 Plus bend, hard to repair/upgrade devices, 2013 MacPro that was EOL before it hit shelves, and the terrible MBP terrible butterfly keyboard, his obsession with thin and light weight will continue to cost Apple money.

The current Macbooks are returning to their roots with thinker designs, larger screens and Magsafe.
 
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UnknownSouljer

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Johnny Ive the company for a reason. His designs lead to a lot of engineering failures. From the iPhone 6 Plus bend to the terrible butterfly keyboard, his obsession with thin and light weight, will continue to cost Apple money.
Jony Ive is still the design head of Apple. Though he left to start his own design firm, Apple now just employs his firm to design their products.
The current Macbooks are returning to their roots with thinker designs, larger screens and Magsafe.
All of which are things Jony added and also designed in the first place. You realize he was there from 1992-2019 right? But also to be clear, he doesn't design in a vacuum. He works at the behest of his employer, notably while still living, Steve Jobs. A lot of their products were produced together under his specific design directives.
I don't deny that there have been design failures at Apple, but again, no more than with any other OEM. And I think trying to point the finger at very specific people is silly.
Apple's design process is a lot longer than any other manufacturer in the space as they literally customize every component in their machines - still, they're human and it doesn't mean that they don't run into issues or mistakes that take years to correct when dealing with an organization of their size and at quantities the size Apple buys and manufacturers things at.

EDIT: Spelling/grammar not content.
 
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Krazy925

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Johnny Ive is still the design head of Apple. Though he left to start his own design firm, Apple now just employs his firm to design their products.

All of which are things Johnny added and also designed in the first place. You realize he was there from 1992-2019 right? But also to be clear, he doesn't design in a vacuum. He works at the behest of his employer, notably while still living, Steve Jobs. A lot of their products were produced together under his specific design directives.
I don't deny that there have been design failures at Apple, but again, no more than with any other OEM. And I think trying to point the finger at very specific people is silly.
Apple's design process is a lot longer than any other manufacturer in the space as they literally customize every component in their machines - still, they're human and it doesn't mean that they don't run into issues or mistakes that take years to correct when dealing with an organization of their size and at quantities the size Apple buys and manufacturers things at.
Butterfly keyboards come to mind. I feel like I’ve been waiting to upgrade for like 4 years. I should thank Apple for saving me money.

Then the switch to the Apple silicon makes me want to wait for gen2 because Apple hates gen1 devices.
 

cjcox

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But your swelling battery, it was just an accident. And only on a small subset of our devices, we promise. And that replacement battery which is also swelling, very rare.... you can trust us.
 
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