HardOCP News
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It's a sad fact that, regardless how many of these articles are written, most people couldn't care less about working conditions as long as we get our shiny new tech gadget. 
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Apple 'Failing To Protect Chinese Factory Workers'
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dgingeri
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I do care, but let's be real about this. China needs time to grow from an industrial society into a modern information society before these things can be corrected. Those people are earning far more than they would most other job that are available to them. They're lucky to have those jobs. It's not like the US over there. We're not preying on them, they're doing what they can. Realistically, that's not going to change until their society grows up a bit more, probably 20 more years. Without the US markets, they'd still be farming, making about one tenth of what they are now, and probably starving.
Yes, those conditions sound terrible. In Iraq soldiers routinely worked 18 hour days with no days off for their entire tour excluding possible leave for vacation to the US or where ever it was they wanted to take their vacation time. Now I know it's not the same as a factory line but it's worse in other ways. Their sleeping conditions were easily just as cramped. This is China's problem and if it's going to improve it will have to be done by China. Apple really has little they can do short of looking elsewhere for production of their products.
Anyone know where Samsung has their phone's made and how is it both are competitively priced yet it's only Apple that get's beat up over this? I am not defending Apple but I am wondering how it is that Apple's competitors are not in the same situation.
Anyone know where Samsung has their phone's made and how is it both are competitively priced yet it's only Apple that get's beat up over this? I am not defending Apple but I am wondering how it is that Apple's competitors are not in the same situation.
Ruoh
Supreme [H]ardness
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Hell must have frozen over, I actually agree with you for once.
I have been doing some reading and found some stuff about child labor accusations at another Chinese factory that supplied parts to Samsung. The article also mentioned that Samsung cut off another Chinese factory because of child labor violations. It actually looks like these issues just run rampant in China and trying to hold these companies responsible is a shaming tactic to try and force them to enforce better conditions cause no one has any real pull with China and Chine won't do it them-self.
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happaflapp
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Pretty sure Samsung manufactures their phones in South Korea. Not real sure about their tablets, but I'm assuming they're made in S. Korea as well.
I'm guessing here, but I'm pretty sure that S. Korea and China aren't the best of friends. So, I would imagine that Samsung wouldn't manufacture there. But, one never knows what a company would do in pursuit of the mighty dollar. Perhaps their memory chips are manufactured in China.
An irony of the article says watch this on your iplayer at the bottom...
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I haven't felt the urge to invest in any apple products since the first generation ipod touch. Even when I type on this keyboard today I wonder about the sale price I paid off someone else's exploited back. All the while, the top 1% get richer and richer....ughhh we're a broken society in a lot of ways.
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I haven't felt the urge to invest in any apple products since the first generation ipod touch. Even when I type on this keyboard today I wonder about the sale price I paid off someone else's exploited back. All the while, the top 1% get richer and richer....ughhh we're a broken society in a lot of ways.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Big corporations get lots of growlings from little people about how awful they are, but I don't think what Apple's suppliers are doing really is Apple's problem to fix. They pay a bunch of other companies to design and manufacture their stuff and as long as it passes like their quality control standards, everything else is the supplier's problem to fix.
Okay first, you don't just "grow" from an industrial society to an information one. The industry still needs to get done. We can pretend we've "outgrown" that in the USA, but the reality is our manufacturing got outsourced to China and other places where labor is far cheaper and we don't have to see the pollution. China can't "grow" from that unless THEY outsource their industry to an even more desolate place.
Second, maybe "preying" is too strong a word, but we've absolutely exploiting them. You say they're lucky to have those jobs, may be, but we're running an industry that DEPENDS on them being exploited. If we wanted to lead by example and only pay industries that treated their workers fairly and paid them well, well then Apple / Samsung / whoever's profit margins would be far, far lower. By making sure we pay low cost workers with little to no rights, we are ENCOURAGING this system to perpetuate. China isn't subject to the same laws we have and treats workers worse than we do, so we take advantage of that for monetary gain. Just because we enable some "lucky" workers to get jobs, we are legitimizing this way of life on a far grander scale and causing massive ripples of less tangible harm. Actually maybe "preying" is the right word.
The modern economy depends on what amounts to pseudo-slave labor like this. It doesn't HAVE to be this way, but to change it would require such an upheaval to our system / way of life that most people can't really envision it.
Dan
Supreme [H]ardness
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I honestly stopped buying apple products because of this, I have a Lg G3 and the wife has a S3... Eff apple.... I love their track pads though :/
invinciblegod
Weaksauce
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Unfortunately, with the way wealth disparity works now, eventually when China completely raises their standards to that of the US, people in the US will have the same income but the iPad 43 will cost $1500. Things will just be more expensive in the future so enjoy this moment of cheapness while you can (unless you earn $200,000+/year, then it doesn't matter).
Samsung has a global presence when it comes to electronics manufacturing and this is just the electronics division of the Conglomerate or Chaebol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Electronics
D
Deleted whining member 223597
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I am sorry but my feelings is this is China's problem and China's alone. I don't get the idea that we need to feel quilt for looking after ourselves when China won't look after their own. If China did then maybe Child labor wouldn't be such a big issue, perhaps their people wouldn't have to labor under difficult or even dangerous conditions. Would this impact prices of products here in the States, probably. Would we pay the increased fair price for what we want, probably. Would sales be as brisk, perhaps not, but that doesn't mean these businesses wouldn't make their profits because if it's not profitable then it's probably not going to happen until it is profitable.
robble
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I just wanted to thank and congratulate you on the proper use of "most people couldn't care less".
It's China's problem in that we can't make China do anything about it. The most we can do is insist products get produced someplace where conditions and treatment are better. We could choose to insist on a decent wage and labor rules, but then we wouldn't get things as cheaply. We would probably have more of a manufacturing base still present in the US though. People seem to confuse the two issues of trying to force China to be more humane and first world like and developed nations trying to actually give a crap about the consequences of their choices rather than just having a race to the cheapest price.
Dr. Righteous
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-TRUTH-
Take it in small bites; chew it and think.
Keep in mind; China is a COMMUNIST country. Under that government people are chattel like cattle or horses. The only RIGHTS they have is what the state gives them.
If anyone is REALLY concerned about human rights they will seek to topple regimens that deny them. (you will notice they never do. Mainly because most human rights organizations are leftist)
So making workers in a democratic society that pays fair wages and respects their rights compete for the same jobs as Communists that are far cheaper and can be exploited is a good thing? Could have fooled me. I would have said that accelerates the race to the bottom for free society workers and reinforces sweatshop behavior in the Communist ones. But hey, whatever makes the stocks go up right?
Why do we have to do any such thing? Why is it our problem? It's China's problem and maybe keep our noses out of it. Just maybe China likes it that way. Maybe the Chinese people would rather we stay out of their business as well. Like Hilary Clinton going to China to dress down their government on how they treat women in China. Maybe it's just not our business, never was, never will be.
I agree, it's not our business. But following that same creed, since some of what they do most of the civilized world considers unethical, we shouldn't SUPPORT their business economically either. If Al Qaeda had a booming manufacturing industry would you have a problem buying goods from them if they had fair prices? Just because China internalizes the damages, doesn't it make it something we should support.
Hold it. Apple is a US Corp right? And one of Apples big competitors is Samsung, a Korean Corp yes? How does the US compete with Korea in this instance? And if we manage to insist and prevail and get both Samsung and Apple to abandon the Chinese factories for those in countries that will support better work standards won't costs probably rise. Fine, Americans are fine with more expensive phones then and everyone is happy except the poor Chinese who lost a lot of business and jobs, it's good they aren't being abused in the jobs they no longer have right?
And what happens if those Sweds, Nokia, decide to buck the trend and their phones are selling cheap enough that Apple and Samsung loose out? How are we going to artificially right that wrong?
At least those poor Chinese still have jobs right cause the same number of phones will still get bought every two years as people's contracts get renewed and their phones upgraded.
It's China's problem and we should let China work it out all on their own. No telling how many things we can break trying to fix problems that are not our own.
Dr. Righteous
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Plants in New Jersey are not making iPhones because nobody would buy an iPhone if it cost $1200. Wages are price fixed in communist countries because they are COMMUNIST COUNTRIES.
IF this the idea that Chinese workers are exploited takes your warm fuzzy away then don't buy Chinese made products. Buy only AMERICAN MADE gadget. ~ Whooa. There are none? Well, who is to blame for this? That is another argument entirely.
Ever pay anyone to mow your lawn or paint your house or walk your dog?
Why?
I doubt if it was because you saw those people as needing employment. Likely it is you deemed you time was more valuable for other pursuits than spending it preforming those tasks; so you paid others to do it. Your "economy" is over theirs.
SO, maybe the lawn man has a unreliable mower that is a pain to use. His life is tough. Maybe the painter still had to use the old bucket and brush and didn't have one of those new-fangle sprayer units. Maybe the dog walker had a wooden leg and struggled a bit. Is any of those hardships YOUR fault?
Suppose your neighbor banged on your door and said "DON'T you know that the dog walker has a wooden leg! She is in pain and it is YOUR FAULT!" The lawn man's mower is broken down! You should fix it!!" "The painter is exhausted! You should buy him a paint sprayer!"
Wouldn't you be a bit indignant?
And even if you took this to heart and went out and announced "Because your work is so hard for you I cannot have you preform jobs"
What would THEIR response be to your demeaning and discriminating against them?
Hmmm........
You do realize that $1500 is $1500 whether you earn $40,000 a year or $200,000+ right? Just because you make more money doesn't magically make higher prices for something instantly more palatable. It has the very same value, you just happen to have more of it.
I don't think anyone has anything to worry about on that front though because it's China's government's responsibility to protect Chinese factory workers and short of a few slap on the wrist shows for some cameras they clearly don't care. And I don't see them wanting to move off of being the manufacturing center for the world anytime soon.
dgingeri
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Wealth disparity is an illusion. True wealth is in the people. The movement of money through people's hands is the measure of wealth, and that is just a symbol of the value of the work they do. The more valuable the work they do, the more money they get and the more than spend. Manufacturing just isn't a very valuable method of work.
When I said that China's society needs to grow, I meant that the people need to learn the value of their work, and move up to gaining more valuable skills and do more valuable work. Discovering is more valuable than engineering, engineering and development are more valuable than building, building is more valuable than maintaining, and maintaining is more valuable than just using. The Chinese workers will "mature" and gain skills to eventually have their work become more valuable. Manufacturing jobs will move on to another country for them to develop. It's already started with many of the Chinese companies that are developing their own versions of things. It won't be long now and they'll start on the rapid launch of new technologies that we saw in the 1960s and 70s. They are a growing, maturing, vibrant society, and they'll become the greatest country in the world pretty soon.
Later, society will degrade into users again, and have to start working back up the ladder.
We in the US have a whole bunch of people these days who think that using (that is to say cashiering, serving, flipping burgers, vacuuming floors, emptying trash cans, etc) is worth a living wage. It is not. Those are jobs that teenagers and young people need to take in order to learn to work, and then move forward to something more valuable. These people keep these low end jobs, refusing to get educated, get the skills, and move on, so the kids aren't learning to work and are having a hard time getting hired. This leads to widespread poverty, socialism, lowered manufacturing standards, and high unemployment rates. It's the start of the degradation back down to users. It's nearly to the point now that those who discover, engineer, and develop aren't being rewarded as they should for their much more valuable work, so fewer and fewer people do it.
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This same thing happened twenty years ago in Europe, and now they have a whole generation of barely useful people followed by a whole generation of completely unhireable young people. There are a few exceptions, as there are with anything, but most (80%+) of the last two generations are almost completely useless, and their society is showing it. I mean, seriously, have you seen the state of European cars lately? Heck, even their pans are less worthy than cheap Chinese made pans, and cost three times as much. It's only the European fans, deluded into thinking they still have the best quality, that maintains those countries. (Germany is about the only country to avoid this, mostly, and that's only temporary.) They have almost no discoverers, engineers, or developers anymore, and those they have are not even making anything more than the users.
There are aspects of a society that will slow the pace or speed it up. The less people are rewarded for working harder, the slower a society climbs the ladder and the harder that society falls to degradation. The more people are left to their own devices and get properly rewarded for harder or more valuable work, the more rapidly that society will climb the ladder and the slower it will degrade. However, with any free society, it will inevitably degrade, fall into a user state, lose freedom, and fall to despotism, simply because of the nature of humanity. We've seen this happen many times over our history.
Our turn is coming. China will simply step into our shoes as we fall.
Hidden videos of Apple violations. All they care about his high profit margin at the cost of abusing child laborers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/19/undercover-video-apple_n_6355182.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/19/undercover-video-apple_n_6355182.html
It's our business as long as our federal government continues its treason in trading with Communist countries, and claiming the labor force of China or any other Communist country represents legitimate competition to our own, or that or any capitalist country.
As others have correctly noted, so-called businesses in China do not begin to play by the same set of rules as companies in capitalist countries. Child labor is just one example out of hundreds, everything from employer-paid health insurance to environmental impact studies to accounting requirements etc etc, they even dictate the value range their currency is "allowed" to "float" between. IT'S A COMPLETE FUCKING SCAM AND HAS BEEN SINCE NIXON.
Red Falcon
[H]ard DCOTM December 2023
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You're right! It's almost like we would have to change the way we live and consume if we weren't using pseudo-slave labor! Although knowing Apple fans, I think some of them might buy it at that price anyway.Dr. Righteous said:
So you're saying you support Communism if it means you get lower priced goods? That's what it sounds like you're saying.
Indignant about WHAT? I think you're either missing the point or else your example is totally disingenuous. Let's say somebody is offering to mow my lawn for minimum wage and I say no, I don't want to pay that much, guess I need to mow the lawn myself. Then an illegal immigrant comes along and offers to do it for 50 cents and I say sure. Next thing you know, the whole neighborhood starts hiring nothing but illegals because they'll all work for 50 cents a day. Then the guy offering to do it for minimum wage is pissed that I'm employing the immigrant under conditions that would normally be illegal and impossible for him to work under. So you're saying me, as the person paying the illegal 50 cents, I should feel indignant because the minimum wage guy is pissed I'm not playing by the same rules of the country we both live in? In this scenario I'M the one being the asshole by ignoring the laws that apply to me where I live. Your example doesn't hold water because I'm not responsible for the minimum wage guy's livelihood if I can't afford to pay him. I may feel bad for him, but that's his problem. I AM responsible for hiring illegals to take his place which ALSO makes his situation worse.
Your horns are showing.dr/owned said:
Thats right and Samsung have taken action against partners exploiting workers, Apple hasn't, infact Samsung are well known to do surprise visits catching them off guard and either pulling contracts or fining them, Apple announce to their partners they are visiting them, which gives them time to hide the evidence which is why they never find these issues. Theres a saying ignorance is bliss.
D
Deleted whining member 223597
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LOL. And you guys go around yelling iSheep and whatnot, this is priceless.
Dr. Righteous
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Would you rob the Chinese laborers a means to make something of themselves??
Yes the wages are low and the conditions are poor. Guess what, 100 years ago in this country, wages were low and conditions were poor in many jobs. My grandfather was a coal miner. The conditions were harsh and he died in a mining accident. But there was a big difference here. This is America, and my father had greater ambitions than being a coal miner. He left the mining camps and worked hard to be a Navy aviator and then a degrees professional. Now he is retired comfortably because he worked his ass off to be something.
Contrast that with a communist country where you don't have that kind of freedom and severe poverty is the norm. People are standing in LINE to get a job at those high tech sweatshops. The work is long and conditions are hard but they are able to make something of themselves. WHY would you rob them of that?
I'm not in favor of supporting communist regimes but nobody consulted me in these trade agreements. The truth is the the Chinese government buy or government debt. In a sense they own our ass. So this is the situation we are stuck in . It is symbiotic although it is strange bedfellows.
ME missing the point?
The basic question is is the person that hires another person responsible for that person's methods, habits, pain, hardships?
The answer is absolutely NO!
Apple does not own FoxConn and cannot tell FoxConn how to treat it's employees, or what conditions to create. That would be local rules and regulations to where FoxConn is located. If you want your costs low enough to be competitive, you don't have your phone made in The USA. You don't have it made in Japan, you don't even have it made in South Korea. These are highly developed countries with educated and technical work forces. They demand a higher salary. This kind of product has to be made in CHINA.
After WWII Japan slowly started manufacturing products for export, and they were junky rinky dink things so the mark "made in Japan" generally meant CRAP.
BUT something happened, a revolution in Japanese education and manufacturing and by the late 70s Japan was the largest and manufacturer of electronics. South Korea did the same. Samsung, LG (Lucky Gold), Hyundai these are Korean industrial giants.
Where was the massive guilt trip when RCA had much of their electronics made by Samsung and LG in the 70s and 80s? The Korean sweat shops were just as hot in the summer and cold in the winter.
The Asian world OWNS the consumer electronics manufacturing. The United States does little and none of it for consumer products. The economics are simple; these productions are too cheap to manufacture here. We are very much a global economy. America is very good at making nuclear missile and submarines that are not detectable.
We are good at making the satellites that relay the data points to the GPS in your smart phone; but we don't make the smart phone. What is really hurting America is the value of WORK has been lost to many. Too many have an entitlement attitude. In a real sense we are the victims of our on success. Still your VALUE to society is what your produce, either through labor (making more widgets per hr) or being the mind that designs the better widget. Both are valuable but the latter is a skill that require greatest amount of effort.
Would you rob the illegal immigrant of his 50 cents?
Of course I wouldn't ROB them of it, but if I know that it's being done under conditions that would be illegal in the USA, it's unethical, un-American, unconscionable, whatever, to SUPPORT it. It sounds like YOU want to rob workers in other countries that DO have real worker protections of THEIR means. Again, it's like you're trying to argue that you should be paying the 50 cent illegals when there's someone willing to work legally for minimum wage. We can't tell China how to run their country, but if we don't support poor conditions economically, that can be a force towards changing it without infringing upon them
That's why we made LAWS to minimize this sort of thing from happening, called worker rights. By paying China to do the work for us, it's essentially circumventing them and trying to take us BACKWARDS by making inhumane conditions the standard America has to compete against. I doubt your father would be happy if he saw miners today having rights taken away and be subjected to the same conditions as your grandfather.
Because it enforces a regime that much of the world considers unethical and sets up a cycle that robs OTHERS willing to do the work under protections many fought for. It sounds like you're very anti-worker rights so long as SOMEONE is willing to do the work, no matter what the conditions. No one likes
No argument. Again, I'm not saying it's possible to make products at the prices we have now without pseudo slave labor. It isn't. What I don't understand are people defending this practice like this is the ONLY WAY or worse yet, trying to justify it morally. This isn't anything new though, I'm sure there were similar arguments going around during the Civil War with people defending actual slavery as the economy was highly dependent on slaves at the time.
Bring back tariffs.
Jack it back up to 42% instead of the current measly 1.2% it is.
Bring back manufacturing jobs.
Lower income taxes so we can afford the things we make.
Problem is it would never work.
Big companies bribe, err, lobby politicians to keep tariffs low because labor is cheaper and profit margins are higher so the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer and the middle class ceases to exist.
There are enough income tax loopholes for corporations and the 1% to walk away with paying virtually nothing in comparison to those that make far less.
Don't get me wrong, if I were rich I wouldn't be complaining, nor would I hope for things to change. Its been said for years you need to have money to make money.
Jack it back up to 42% instead of the current measly 1.2% it is.
Bring back manufacturing jobs.
Lower income taxes so we can afford the things we make.
Problem is it would never work.
Big companies bribe, err, lobby politicians to keep tariffs low because labor is cheaper and profit margins are higher so the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer and the middle class ceases to exist.
There are enough income tax loopholes for corporations and the 1% to walk away with paying virtually nothing in comparison to those that make far less.
Don't get me wrong, if I were rich I wouldn't be complaining, nor would I hope for things to change. Its been said for years you need to have money to make money.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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China can make more workers to replace those that die at their jobsites.