Apple Deluged By Police Demands To Decrypt iPhones

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
Whether or not the war on drugs is useful or not isn't for me to determine. Drugs are illegal, and my job isn't to try and justify the war on drugs, it's to get the drugs off the streets and apply the law in a fair and equal manner. If you don't like the war on drugs, don't take it out on cops, take it out on politicians and have them change the law.

What you have just done is called the Nuremberg defense because it is the same excuse that the Nazi's gave during their trials for crimes against humanity. Following orders and/or the law is NEVER an excuse for violating people's natural rights.

Anytime you arrest someone for just drugs, you are committing acts of armed robbery and kidnapping against people who have not violated anyone else's rights.

The fact that you wear a badge does not change this. The fact that the state says it is illegal does NOT change this. You are an individual with free will and YOU have a choice in the matter.
 

kirbyrj

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Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
29,719
What you have just done is called the Nuremberg defense because it is the same excuse that the Nazi's gave during their trials for crimes against humanity. Following orders and/or the law is NEVER an excuse for violating people's natural rights.

Anytime you arrest someone for just drugs, you are committing acts of armed robbery and kidnapping against people who have not violated anyone else's rights.

The fact that you wear a badge does not change this. The fact that the state says it is illegal does NOT change this. You are an individual with free will and YOU have a choice in the matter.

Seriously? I'm not hauling off Jews to be exterminated...I'm trying to get something I BELIEVE IS HARMFUL off the street.
 

kirbyrj

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Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
29,719
Anytime you arrest someone for just drugs, you are committing acts of armed robbery and kidnapping against people who have not violated anyone else's rights.

Actually, in drug and DUI complaints (and gambling, prostitution, etc. IIRC), "Society" is listed as the victim.

I think you're living in this delusional world where you think a casual drug user does not harm anyone but himself. The reality is the casual drug user often gets in his car and drives around putting himself and others at risk, will steal from anyone to get money to buy more drugs, gets himself addicted to suboxone to get off of his opiate addiction, etc. Drug use isn't all "let's pass around a joint at a Phish concert."

It's like I never used to wear my seat belt and then I started going to car crashes where there were dead bodies because they didn't wear seat belts. Kind of puts it in a different perspective. Same thing with drugs. You'll never get me near the stuff after seeing what it does to people. Drug use is a whole lot more like "Faces of Meth" than "Dazed and Confused."
 

wonderfield

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
7,396
Seriously? I'm not hauling off Jews to be exterminated...I'm trying to get something I BELIEVE IS HARMFUL off the street.
I'm not agreeing with dami here, because he lives in a deluded fantasy world and has only the vaguest notion of reality, but Nazi soldiers under the Reich thought the Jews were harmful to the purity of mankind. They too aimed to get something they believed harmful off the street.
 

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
Actually, in drug and DUI complaints (and gambling, prostitution, etc. IIRC), "Society" is listed as the victim.

I think you're living in this delusional world where you think a casual drug user does not harm anyone but himself. The reality is the casual drug user often gets in his car and drives around putting himself and others at risk, will steal from anyone to get money to buy more drugs, gets himself addicted to suboxone to get off of his opiate addiction, etc. Drug use isn't all "let's pass around a joint at a Phish concert."

It's like I never used to wear my seat belt and then I started going to car crashes where there were dead bodies because they didn't wear seat belts. Kind of puts it in a different perspective. Same thing with drugs. You'll never get me near the stuff after seeing what it does to people. Drug use is a whole lot more like "Faces of Meth" than "Dazed and Confused."

Let's go through the usual excuses one by one :

1.Drugs are expensive because it is a BLACK MARKET. Economics 101; when you substantially increase the risk of dealing drugs by threatening drug dealers with incarceration, it limits the number of people who will deal drugs which in turn drives prices up. Driving prices up means less people can afford them which means they are more likely to steal so they can get enough money to buy drugs.

There is a reason why the drug cartels want drugs to remain illegal and it is not out of any sense of morality.

2.We live in a world of risks. If you ban every activity that COULD harm someone, then people would die of starvation for even eating food carries the risk of food poisoning. It is simply not realistic.

Everytime you get in your car, you could kill someone. Everytime you engage in a high speed chase, you could kill someone. Everytime you fire your gun, you could kill someone (innocent or otherwise).

3.I am not saying drugs are good. Drugs do horrible things to people. But this, in and of itself, is not a justification for the violation of people's property rights. The most fundamental right of all is the right of self-ownership; that a person owns their own body. If someone wants to trash their body, that is their prerogative.

Making drugs illegal doesn't stop that. Certainly, locking drug users up in cages doesn't stop it. Fundamentally, drug addiction is a medical problem. Treating it as a criminal problem only makes the situation worse. People who might otherwise seek help for their problem are deterred because of the threat of incarceration.
 

S-F

Gawd
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
671
Like I said before, I don't know what to tell you. I have to take the law at face value because it's my job.

You could get a new job.

If you are in the Western MA area I am willing to give you one and provide job training. We have a human services mission of hiring inner city children and helping them develop life skills, work ethic and so on. I imagine rehabilitating a cop wouldn't be harder than rehabilitating an inner city gang related ghetto kid.

I didn't force you to be a cop but if you caught me with an scheduled substance you would force me to all sorts of things. You would probably abduct me, hold me captive and eventually extort money from me with threats of more violence. You may even take my children and job away. For weed? Please don't take this as a personal attack. It's commentary on the system we have for governing social interaction.

Being a cop can't be emotionally healthy. The sole purpose of cops is to look for trouble. Personally I think it's a good idea to look for things that aren't troubling. We could probably do with 60% less cops. Occasionally people get in legal trouble in the U.S. for the most mundane things. If you're caught taking a piss in your yard you will be labeled as a sex offender. Nice! Gotta arrest someone because you go to their house for a noise complaint and smell that they're smoking grass? Nice! Because smoking grass doesn't lead to violent crime. It leads to carpentry. Not ambitious carpentry. Just a couple guys working their trade.

DISCLAIMER
I don't smoke grass. I hate that shit. But many people I know do and that's the only law they break.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
680
Actually, in drug and DUI complaints (and gambling, prostitution, etc. IIRC), "Society" is listed as the victim.

I think you're living in this delusional world where you think a casual drug user does not harm anyone but himself. The reality is the casual drug user often gets in his car and drives around putting himself and others at riskWe have dui and dwi laws for this specific situation. Alcohol is legal, driving drunk is illegal. we also have chemical tests, so if you have probable cause such as the person seems fucked up you can have them take one, will steal from anyone to get money to buy more drugsAgain we have laws against stealing. Apply those. And that's beside the fact that drugs are only expensive because the government keeps them illegal, gets himself addicted to suboxone to get off of his opiate addictionhmmmm, because that's not a medical issue that should be treated by psychiatrists and medical professionals, etc. Drug use isn't all "let's pass around a joint at a Phish concert."Drug use also isn't how you're describing it as some evil causing filth that only leads to violence, more crime, death, and destruction. Most drug use is let's trip in the park and be peaceful, lets get high and watch tv maybe eat a pizza, lets go roll at a club and release some steam keeping us emotionally healthy.
......
 

mope54

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 2, 2004
Messages
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the "reality" is that kirbyrj conflated "casual" drug users with people addicted to opiates.
whether he believes them to be the same population is questionable but it wouldn't be the first time that law and order personalities couldn't differentiate between low and high risk populations.

although that's beginning to change. not because of a change of ethos but hard, economic realities are forcing agencies to look to those of us in the social sciences who have a lot to say about "what works" best practices. it's been a long time coming
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
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/thread

smdh...

"Smdh" means what? Not all of us are in with your random acronyms.... and just because your argument is being debated (I'm with the majority here on thinking it's ridiculous), doesn't mean you can declare "/thread" randomly :p.
 

BloodDonor

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
315
Doesn't the TSA still have the ability to confiscate phones without due process or probable cause?
 

dgz

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
5,838
Whether or not the war on drugs is useful or not isn't for me to determine. Drugs are illegal, and my job isn't to try and justify the war on drugs, it's to get the drugs off the streets and apply the law in a fair and equal manner. If you don't like the war on drugs, don't take it out on cops, take it out on politicians and have them change the law.

I hope some day you realize you're doing more harm to society than the people you're after. Ruining people's lives for committing victimless crimes = social cancer.
 

CreepyUncleGoogle

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
6,871
the "reality" is that kirbyrj conflated "casual" drug users with people addicted to opiates.
whether he believes them to be the same population is questionable but it wouldn't be the first time that law and order personalities couldn't differentiate between low and high risk populations.

although that's beginning to change. not because of a change of ethos but hard, economic realities are forcing agencies to look to those of us in the social sciences who have a lot to say about "what works" best practices. it's been a long time coming

Casual drug users are willfully breaking laws and investing money into an illegal trade. Casual drug users are just as bad, if not worse, because they think their occasional use is justified since they don't consider themselves mentally weak junkies looking for some escape from dealing with reality. They rightfully should end up with a criminal record that brands them so the rest of society knows exactly what they've done to themselves and to others.

There's so many escape routes that people give themselves to make drug use okay and the people that have to deal with them into bad guys that it's not even funny. Don't help those awful people rationalize their way into a solution for their being stupid people.
 

dandirk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
1,835
Casual drug users are willfully breaking laws and investing money into an illegal trade. Casual drug users are just as bad, if not worse, because they think their occasional use is justified since they don't consider themselves mentally weak junkies looking for some escape from dealing with reality. They rightfully should end up with a criminal record that brands them so the rest of society knows exactly what they've done to themselves and to others.

There's so many escape routes that people give themselves to make drug use okay and the people that have to deal with them into bad guys that it's not even funny. Don't help those awful people rationalize their way into a solution for their being stupid people.

ha ha ha ha ha literally rolling on the floor laughing and typing the whole thing just cause your comments are that funny.

I could easily use the EXACT same argument about the illegalization of many things... trying to force society to not do something they have done for 1000s of years and will do for a 1000 more.

You tell me who is ignoring reality...

Prostitution been pretty much illegal for 1000s of years in the western world, large chunks of that time penalty was immediate death... Yet is still flourishes... Well maybe if you make the punishment more severe and illegal for another 1000 years people will stop whoring and johning. lol

Drugs should be illegal right??? What about alcohol? It kills more people and causes more addiction and social issues then many "illegal" drugs, yet is perfectly legal and is pretty much ignored when talking about the "reality" of the war on drugs (maybe because the people that built the war like their single malt scotches... just saying)...

Oh lets look into other addictive things that are legal and how much violence they cause because they are bad for you..

Cigarettes? When was the last time you heard about a drive by over slanging Newports and Camels on the corner? Oh wait I remember one... it was in Beverly Hills Cop with Eddie Murphy... It was insane, the truck was driving all over the place running over puppies and hitting cars... oh wait that was in "reality" make believe.

Coffee... Yes a bit of a stretch but honestly probably more addictive then weed... Yes it is a billions of $$$ industry and no one things twice.

Please if anyone used common sense and rational reasoning for drug and most social laws... things would be similar and our resources could actually go to preventing and keeping use safe from things we can't easily control instead of wasting time and resources fighting human nature trying to make stupid crap illegal.
 

dandirk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
1,835
I will say you should be a bit easy on LF...

I can only image how crappy their day is on the street, all they deal with all day are 100s of douche bags that are completely unreasonable and truely a-holes trying to constantly "put one over" on smarter people then themselves (in a majority of cases).

I am not saying this is an excuse but I know I would have a much shorter fuse when dealing with stupid idiots all day, doing stupid things, acting stupid etc etc etc

They probably get so jadded that the 2 decent people they deal with all day gets the short end of the stick.

I am not making an excuse for them, this is their job... I am just saying we also should have a little bit more understanding (especially next time your town is talking about funding for more cops).
 

Technikal

Gawd
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
590
Casual drug users are willfully breaking laws and investing money into an illegal trade. Casual drug users are just as bad, if not worse, because they think their occasional use is justified since they don't consider themselves mentally weak junkies looking for some escape from dealing with reality. They rightfully should end up with a criminal record that brands them so the rest of society knows exactly what they've done to themselves and to others.

There's so many escape routes that people give themselves to make drug use okay and the people that have to deal with them into bad guys that it's not even funny. Don't help those awful people rationalize their way into a solution for their being stupid people.

Hahahahahaha

You sound exactly like a 60 year old alcoholic religious fanatic co-worker I had once.

I think in the future all drug use will be decriminalized, it's just a matter of time. Why? Because other than keeping the so called justice system workers self employed.. drug laws stops no one from doing what they want. Never has..never will.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
23,996
I will say you should be a bit easy on LF...

I can only image how crappy their day is on the street, all they deal with all day are 100s of douche bags that are completely unreasonable and truely a-holes trying to constantly "put one over" on smarter people then themselves (in a majority of cases).

I am not saying this is an excuse but I know I would have a much shorter fuse when dealing with stupid idiots all day, doing stupid things, acting stupid etc etc etc

They probably get so jadded that the 2 decent people they deal with all day gets the short end of the stick.

I am not making an excuse for them, this is their job... I am just saying we also should have a little bit more understanding (especially next time your town is talking about funding for more cops).


Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... I have the utmost respect for law enforcement officers on an overall basis, and I know it's a very stressful, risky job. My comments were directed strictly at the ones in this thread made by people.
 

-Axiom-

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
2,214
So...I'm the one with an attitude because I told you that law enforcement isn't out there to get the innocent person? I have NEVER abused authority by asking an innocent person to let me see their cell phone. :rolleyes:
Well.
Why are you asking an innocent citizen to see their cell phone in the first place?:rolleyes:
 

257Tony

Gawd
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
723
Man, most of the people in this thread are completely clueless. Out down the WoW, take off your foil hats, climb the stairs, and go outside. I promise there is no big bad cops out there waiting to take your iPhones.

Bottom line is, if you don't the likenthe laws of the country you live in, don't take it out on the police. Take it up with your elected offficials ( yeah, I know, you didn't vote for them), or, there is always Canada....
 
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