Apple CEO Compares Surface To A Flying Car

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by HardOCP News, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Huh? Again, what do this have to do with specific apps and their touch appropriateness.

    But you emulator isn't touch capable. The point is it's very convenient to be able to run and debug code on the device you're targeting.
     
  2. BDS23

    BDS23 Limp Gawd

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    Flying and floating car?

    ...

    *sniff* I miss the good old days...
     
  3. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    And how many people know what an x86 is? It is a strange and meaningless acronym to the majority of people.

    Again, they will see a device that looks like a laptop and is labeled as running Windows. They will thus expect it to run Windows programs.

    We've already been through this nonsense before. The original Palm Sized PC (What later became Windows Mobile) had three separate processor architectures and users were expected to know which one they had. It was a disaster for both developers and the end user.
     
  4. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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  5. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    You go around talking about recompiling kernels like every does that and then say something like this?

    It is a complex and new product mix yes, but it's not recompiling a kernel. Not everyone is stupid. People do research and ask questions and there's an Internet full of info on this subject.

    Uh, no. I developed for Windows mobile devices, no one was confused by a handheld device doing what a PC could do at the time, heck laptops weren't even in the mainstream when the first Windows CE powered devices came along.
     
  6. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    The difference is, you can remain blissfully unaware of the kernel and leave it at stock. Recompiling the kernel is an option; it is not something you are forced to deal with.

    The difference between 8 and RT however, is to be ignored at your own peril.

    No, people don't do research. They impulse buy. You give the human race far too much credit.

    Palm Sized PC predates Windows Mobile. And yes, people were confused by it (which probably explains its lack of success compared to the Palm).
     
  7. Trepidati0n

    Trepidati0n [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Photo : Please show the amount of people who own and actively use photo editing SW relative to populace at large

    Scanning SW: Are you fucking kidding me? Really. This is a big issue?

    Games : Please show me the amount of people who buy PC games anymore for their home/PC laptop relative to the populace @ large

    Quicken : Seriously, this is getting old news. Please show me the amount of people who still buy qiucken/quickbooks/etc relative to the populace @ large.

    Office: Please show me the amount of people that use more than 5% of the capability of office relative to the populace @ large.

    The amount of people that will be hampered by Windows RT relative to a desktop PC with Win7/Win8 is small @ best. You need to stop making up scary stories to fit your personal narrative.

    P.S. Quicken can go die in a fire with their latest release. I think they are doing it purposely this bad to force people to mint so they can data mine them.
     
  8. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's just not that complicated. I'm not saying that it's clear to everyone but not complicated. Buying a house, car, health insurance, that's complicated.

    For $500+ most people will do a little digging first. Especially when there's already competing products like the iPad and Android devices.

    Windows mobile, Palm Sized PC, whatever the name was they all ran Windows CE. Again, I never saw any instance of people thinking a device the sized of a pocket calculator circa 2000 was a desktop PC, before even laptops were common.
     
  9. lilbabycat

    lilbabycat 2[H]4U

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    Unless the surface has 2-3x the battery life of an "ultrabook" or a "laptop", then I won't be switching. I need battery life and actual useful applications. I'm not willing to sacrifice either of those things. This is a step in the right direction, and the V2.0 version will surely be good, but this is just overpriced prototype.
     
  10. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    There certainly aren't many sub two pound ultrabooks or laptops getting 8+ hours of battery life. Of course this product isn't for everyone but for people that just need Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote, web browsing, media playback, eBooks and access to main stream apps like Pandora, or what have you, this might be a great product for these people.

    The whole reason tablets are doing well is because more and more people can do fine with simple devices and a basic set of applications and services. Surface RT throws into the mix the big parts of the most popular desktop productivity software in the world and that's all millions of people need.
     
  11. krotch

    krotch [H]ardness Supreme

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    Those will work on the Pro. Won't work on the RT of course.
     
  12. BBA

    BBA [H]ardness Supreme

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    He is trying to make everyone think that the surface is too unlimited to actually work, but in reality he is saying "my competitor has a truly usable device coming out and Apple can't do anything but cry about it"

    I too disagree with his assessment.
     
  13. BBA

    BBA [H]ardness Supreme

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    Wrong.

    I actually have a Tandy (Radio Shack) Pocket Computer that I bought in 1989, it runs BASIC, has a full qwerty keyboard, folds closed and actually fits in my pocket (and it still works too).
     
  14. BBA

    BBA [H]ardness Supreme

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    HP Tuners and EFI Live.
     
  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I had one of those too, but it looked more like a pocket calculator than a computer. It really was little more than a programmable calculator.
     
  16. uclajd

    uclajd Gawd

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    Ha ha, Steve defending Ballmer and his universally-panned Surface. Pathetic, mindless Apple hate, as always. :rolleyes:

    Go ask MSFT stockholders what they think of Ballmer and his epic fail
     
  17. uclajd

    uclajd Gawd

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    Cry about it? LOL! Apple will sell more tablets in a month than MS will sell all year.

    The only ones crying are MSFT shareholders when Win 8 and the Surface epically fail.
     
  18. PNut12345

    PNut12345 2[H]4U

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    LOL, scroll down one more post on the front page...:rolleyes:

    http://www.hardocp.com/news/2012/10/25/apple_misses_wall_street_4q_expectations
     
  19. wtburnette

    wtburnette 2[H]4U

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    Complete load of FUD. Win 8 on these devices is supposedly a pretty good experience. I think they're overpriced and have a lot of other problems, but the Surface hardware and the Win 8 experience as a tablet is supposed to be pretty nice. I honestly hope someone I know buys one so I can play around with it and judge for myself, without having to spend any money...:D
     
  20. krotch

    krotch [H]ardness Supreme

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    Wouldn't be surprised if it ends up at Best Buy display to play with it a little.
     
  21. ravensteel

    ravensteel Limp Gawd

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    This is the same Tim Cook who said they'd never make a 7" iPad, shut up Tim...I used to have respect for you, no longer. I seen MS Surface, so far I'm liking what I'm seeing and that built in kick stand although not new it's an innovative idea to put on a Tablet. Cook is probably saying this because he probably wish they added that.
     
  22. Cobalt35

    Cobalt35 [H]ard|Gawd

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    "I haven't actually used it, but it's really confusing..."

    :rolleyes:
     
  23. matt9669

    matt9669 Limp Gawd

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    Our products are AMAZING, everyone else's? Meh. I haven't used it, mind you, but I don't need to to know this.

    You know what's compromised and confusing to me? The iPad. No I don't need a giant iPhone, thanks. Something I could actually get work done on? You know, use a real keyboard, multitask? That I'd consider.

    This is the sort of attitude that makes people like us hate Apple. I respect their success and the quality of their products, why act like a spoiled brat? I wonder how they will behave if Apple starts to fail.

    As for RT vs 8 - Atom is now power competitive with quad-core ARM SoC's, so personally I'd hold out for at least an Atom-based 8 machine for full x86 backwards compatibility (i.e. you can actually run all your older Windows stuff on it). That kind of makes RT a bit pointless right now, but if RT-based tablets can come down in price and the app store starts to fill out, it may be relevant.
     
  24. Eisenblut

    Eisenblut [H]ard|Gawd

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    I guess Apple CEOs break the first rule of not doing the drugs that you are selling.
     
  25. ballistic90

    ballistic90 2[H]4U

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    Microsoft is really onto something when they created the surface and built the OS around it, and then brought the same interface and entirety of the OS back to the desktop. It's the opposite concept of the Windows XP tablet when they came out, and I think they fully figured out how to make the tablet extremely appealing.

    I love my Nexus 7 tablet, but a Windows 8 (not RT) tablet is really tempting.
     
  26. weebling1

    weebling1 2[H]4U

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    Sign my up for the flying swimming car, but I'm epecting to be the last person on earth to get a smart phone :p
     
  27. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    I don't consider it a good experience to be told what you can and cannot install on your own device. I don't consider it a good experience to be told what sites you can and cannot run Flash on.

    It is impossible to own a Surface. At best, you are borrowing it. The device itself belongs to Microsoft, and not the user because Microsoft is the one who controls it and dictates what you can and cannot do with it.

    (To Heatless : Spare me the security nonsense. I'm tempted just from my conversations with you to pay for a "developer license" just so I can submit and get approved a proof of concept like this guy did for crApple).

    People totally want a tablet that costs twice-thrice what the cheapest iPad costs and has fans and generates enough heat to burn you.

    Attempting to use x86 on a tablet is utter folly unless you don't care about battery life or heat. x86 is cumbersome to implement in hardware and very hard to pipeline and, as such, no modern x86 processor is actually x86 in the hardware; they stopped doing that back with the P6 in 95. Every modern x86 processor has a decoder which translates x86 instructions into microops for the internal RISC-like core (although it is not pure RISC since it is still register-memory rather than register-register/load-store). This decoder sucks up power and is the equivalent of a boat anchor in terms of power usgae.

    You've obviously never worked with end users. If you think people are resistant to change here, just wait until you get out into the real world. Yes, in fact, something as benign as changing their scanning software can throw them into a fit. Yes, people do in fact use Quicken. Yes, people do actually use a lot of the functionality they removed from Office RT (basically, the functionality they removed is the only functionality that makes it more useful than LibreOffice. The ONLY reason I keep Excel around is for BI and PowerPivot).
     
  28. t0ked

    t0ked n00b

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    I beta tested Win8 a few months back. While it was unnerving, trying to relearn a few things, I thought it was pretty good. Yes, the no start menu I did not like. And on the desktop, I will probably stick with Win7. But I could see how on a touch surface such as tablet or phone, the OS could really shine. I haven't tried out a surface tablet yet, so I won't comment, but it does look tempting.
     
  29. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Really? How many people are getting burned but the Core i5 ULVs in their ultrabooks sitting in their laps. The heat issue on good Core i5 designs these days isn't really an issue, my S7S doesn't get and has never burned me in the year I've had it. And really, you're talking out of both sides here. First you bring up all of this desktop software that won't run on ARM devices then complain about the price? You can't have everything for $500.
     
  30. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver Beat It To Deformation

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  31. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    Last time I checked, the S7S had a fan. It also runs considerably hotter than my overclocked Android tablet and has a considerably lower battery life.

    Ubuntu runs on the Nexus 7. You do not need an expensive device in order to have a desktop environment. And most of your existing software will work because it has already been ported to various processor architectures.
     
  32. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    An S7S is also considerably faster. A Core i5 will crush any current ARM CPU.

    Yeah, I'm sure that this is dependable environment with no show stopping bugs and plenty of compatible software.
     
  33. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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  34. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    I know the x86 is faster. Intel has billions of dollars to invest in research and has state of the art manufacturing facilities. I do not for-see ARM ever replacing x86 in the laptop/desktop market and only a limited use for it in the server market. However, the x86 does not even come close to ARM in terms of performance-per-watt and that is what is important on a tablet or mobile device.

    Again, you are thinking like a Windows user. Most of the GNU/Linux software you would end up using in Ubuntu has already been ported to ARM (and half a dozen other architectures). The FOSS nature of the software ensures this as well as the fact that portability is a big thing in *nix.
     
  35. Topweasel

    Topweasel [H]ard|Gawd

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    Exactly by this point I will take any flying car, even if it does it horribly.
     
  36. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    But yet you've been talking about all of this x86 that you can do on ARM tablets. I agree that for average people and limited processing needs ARM is a better choice for a pure tablets. But all x86 Windows tablets can function as a desktop, with mice and keyboards and while also having touch centric software, something not possible with ARM devices.

    There's different options for different needs. Something that someone like you that's always clamoring about choice should appreciate. But in your case I don't think its so much that you care about choice, you just don't like Microsoft.

    No, I'm thinking like a developer. Getting something to run is a far cry for getting something right. Without proper testing and validation all you have here is a hobbyists toy. Compiling code to run on different architectures isn't the problem, its the testing and validation that's were the real work lies.
     
  37. travbrad

    travbrad [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's not really the type of user Microsoft is trying to attract though. The number of people who want to replace the kernel and overclock their tablets is extremely small compared to the number of "mainstream" users.

    iOS doesn't have much in the way of customization either, but Apple seems to be doing alright.
     
  38. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    So all the those people are over at Apple. Treating Microsoft customers like Apple customers won't turn them into Apple-like customers.

    If that's the mission, Microsoft is going to screw itself.
     
  39. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    Again, I beg to differ. Ubuntu and other Linuxen can run on tablets and provide both, if you so chose.

    My "need" is to be able to install whatever software I want in whatever area of the operating system I want and to not be forced to use an app store. I used to hate Microsoft and then they started improving and actually working with open standards rather than proprietary garbage that locks you into their products. It is a shame that they are reverting to their old ways as Windows 7 was actually a decent OS.

    I'm fully away that debugging is something like 90% of a programmer's time. We do, in fact, have debuggers.

    Validation is designed to keep pencil pushing bureaucrats employed. Having to spend a week doing a 200-page IQ/OQ document for the FDA (front and back of course) because you fixed a single typo (in a UI string) in the code is completely asinine. The average user is neither going to care about nor know what an IQ/OQ/PQ. is, but, they will enjoy not having to wait a month after a vulnerability is discovered to get a patch.
     
  40. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I'd love to see how well various desktop apps perform on ARM under Linux. Things like Photoshop or AutoCAD, oh wait, never mind.

    Sandboxed app stores, pretty much the accepted norm, even Android does it, yeah I know there are other stores but there's a lot of uncertainty among folks in terms of security about them. You act as though open standards and compiling kernels and such is what sells end user devices and OSes. These things just are major concerns in that market.

    Not saying bureaucracy is a bad thing but neither is uncontrolled management and fly by the seat of your pants testing.