Apartment to buy with coal heating. Any sense to buy electrical heater and new pc?

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in monday i will be living in new home. But must there wait 1-2 weeks to have internet ISP . Too long. But must wait.
 
you're selling your house to buy a new PC?
No, but he previously under his old banned username (mgty23) has admitted to taking out a loan to afford his system. I guess he's sold it now to pay that back when he moves and will buy a new one for his new place?
 
No, but he previously under his old banned username (mgty23) has admitted to taking out a loan to afford his system. I guess he's sold it now to pay that back when he moves and will buy a new one for his new place?

his posts definitely reminded me of mgty23...except previously he would always ask about whether his system could handle the latest games...if money is an issue the last thing I would prioritize is building a gaming PC
 
Wow. Coal?

I didn't realize coal was still used for direct heat anywhere in the world.

I have read books set during the industrial revolution in the UK where they threw a lump of coal in the stove when it was cold, but that was in the early 1800's.

I'm curious, where in the world are you located? Given 2000W space heaters are available, I presume this means you live somewhere with 230v 16a circuits are the standard. (So probably Europe somewhere?)

It sounds like this issue is already resolved, but just some thoughts anyway for good measure.

The adequacy of heating is going to depend very much on the insulation and climate.

If the insulation is good, less heating capability is required.

If it doesn't get as cold, less heating capability is required.

Here in New England, even with good insulation, on one of our coldest days of the year even my Threadripper with my 4090 is not going to adequately heat the place. (we get about 10 days a year at 10°F or below, (-12 °C or below) with record lows generally slightly above -18°F . -30°C ) In a milder climate, it might be more than sufficient.

You really don't want to use a space heater for regular heating. Direct resistive electric heat is typically one of the most expensive ways to heat things.

In the last few years window-mountable heat pumps have become available. These may be a much better choice. They will be more expensive up front, but they will pay for themselves rather quickly through electric savings.
 
Plenty of coal / wood hybrid burners out there!
There is nothing more comfortable than having a fire roaring, kitty on the lap just chilling when the temp outside is well below zero! ;-)
 
Plenty of coal / wood hybrid burners out there!
There is nothing more comfortable than having a fire roaring, kitty on the lap just chilling when the temp outside is well below zero! ;-)

I've seen plenty of wood stoves. I've never actually seen coal in person. I don't even know where one might buy that.
 
I'm curious, where in the world are you located? Given 2000W space heaters are available, I presume this means you live somewhere with 230v 16a circuits are the standard.
We were discussing St. God's Poland, we have enormous coal deposits and soapboxy reasons for no nuclear, ever. Even though we also have Uranium deposits.

The way it works in my neighborhood, for example, is that a bunch of apartment buildings are all connected to a single heating plant that burns coal, or on rarer occasions wood/woodchip pellet.

Most houses and apartment buildings also have natural gas installations by default, so hot water for bathing usually comes from small gas furnaces.

Older, isolated houses use either fireplaces or various stoves and burn wood, or pellet.

Nobody sane uses electricity for powering space heaters to heat their home, because of the enormous cost.
We also have a very rapidly growing solar market, and lots of houses now warm up their potable water with sunlight.

Edit: besides, we're now in the hot period of the weather cycle, and legendary super-cold Polish winters are a thing of the past, have been for over 15 years now. But the generation that rolls the dice and gets our old winters back will suffer dearly.
they are even in your area...
There are hot stoves in your area!
 
funny how many here are ignoring that we dont even know if OP has to pay for power.
as long as that's not the case, its irrelevant if an electric heater is used.

hu76
if you still need one, get something that use convection rather than the oil filled heaters.
this
or this


Tsumi
unless i missed something, your neither a mod/admin, nor parent or partner, so i would suggest YOU stop telling ppl what to do, as no one forced you to read/post here.

Carlyle2020
not a good idea to run a heater consuming 1500/2000w, with an extension cord, most will not be able to handle full load continuously without getting warm/hot.
 
Carlyle2020
not a good idea to run a heater consuming 1500/2000w, with an extension cord, most will not be able to handle full load continuously without getting warm/hot.

Extension cords are fine as long as they are of sufficient gauge wire. Unfortunately most household cords are 16AWG wire. A 12AWG cord is adequate up to 50' for a household heater.
Screenshot 2024-07-06 at 09.26.51.png
 
A properly "made-to-lengh" cable is best, since you can choose the properties yourself.

I´m really lucky having 230volt here in Europe.
Even the cheapo extensions must comply to beeing able to run 3680 watts/16 amps. So thick cables are guaranteed.

And concerning the cables warming up: The heat rating is usually printed on the cable itself.
And reading those on my hardware 50c is not really out of the ordinary.

;-) Even inside the pc
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I´m really lucky having 230volt here in Europe.
Even the cheapo extensions must comply to beeing able to run 3680 watts/16 amps. So thick cables are guaranteed.

Yeah, they sure make things easier in Europe.

Extension cable gauge is just not something people have to think about. (As long as they buy a grounded cable)

It has less to do with the voltage per se, and more to do with regulation requiring even the weakest of extension cables to handle the full 16 amps a typical 230v in home circuit provides.

So they can pretty much buy any extension cord and know it is sufficient, because they all are. (well, at least the grounded ones. Grounded ones are required to support 3,500W if I recall ~(230v 16amp including a little safety margin) if I recall, but ungrounded extension cables are allowed to have lower ratings, I don't remember the exact minimums, but I've seen ones for sale in the EU that are rated as low as 600w (2.5A?)

This does drive up the cost of your average extension cable, but on the flip side house fires due to insufficient extension cables are very very rare, as you don't have the lowest common denominator plugging in space heaters to under-dimensioned extension cables and saying "whatever, it will be fine".

For what it is worth though, in my googling, I am having a difficult time finding a standard European extension cable longer than 10m (~33ft). Possibly because the full 16a requirement, really long cables would be rather expensive, needing thick conductors. I'm sure you can get them, but none of the standard retailers seem to carry them, whereas over here I can just walk down to Home Depot and buy a 200ft extension cord no problem.

Edit: After writing this I found one retailer that has a 20m cable, but that's the longest I have found thus far. Maybe my Google-fu is just failing me though, so correct me if I am wrong. (I'm searching Swedish retailers, Clas Ohlson & Biltema FTW) as that's my strongest of the languages of the EU. I speak German too, maybe I should try some German sites.)

Edit2: I have found some professional jobsite cable winders like this that are longer (but they are pretty expensive)

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It's a different way of approaching things, with benefits and drawbacks.

They also get 400v 3 phase which is pretty cool.

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I'm not sure what it would take to get anything beyond our 3-pole 240v in a residential setting, but it probably wouldn't be easy. It has to be possible for industrial users, but I don't even thing the main service line supports a way to do this, at least where I live. But this is a topic I don't know much about, so I might be wrong.

I would LOVE it if we could move to 230v 16a standard power circuits over here. After a brief, difficult transition period it would make life so much easier.
 
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except a lot of countries allow for "lower" spec, if the cable is labeled "for temporary use", incl those rolled up, and even in more regulated places like germany.
i bet, spending a day at a home improvement/electronics store, you will see less than 10% of the end consumer walking out the door with an extension, wont know if its proper for the planned use.
 
Yeah, they sure make things easier in Europe.

Extension cable gauge is just not something people have to think about. (As long as they buy a grounded cable)

It has less to do with the voltage per se, and more to do with regulation requiring even the weakest of extension cables to handle the full 16 amps a typical 230v in home circuit provides.

So they can pretty much buy any extension cord and know it is sufficient, because they all are. (well, at least the grounded ones. Grounded ones are required to support 3,500W if I recall ~(230v 16amp including a little safety margin) if I recall, but ungrounded extension cables are allowed to have lower ratings, I don't remember the exact minimums, but I've seen ones for sale in the EU that are rated as low as 600w (2.5A?)

This does drive up the cost of your average extension cable, but on the flip side house fires due to insufficient extension cables are very very rare, as you don't have the lowest common denominator plugging in space heaters to under-dimensioned extension cables and saying "whatever, it will be fine".

For what it is worth though, in my googling, I am having a difficult time finding a standard European extension cable longer than 10m (~33ft). Possibly because the full 16a requirement, really long cables would be rather expensive, needing thick conductors. I'm sure you can get them, but none of the standard retailers seem to carry them, whereas over here I can just walk down to Home Depot and buy a 200ft extension cord no problem.

Edit: After writing this I found one retailer that has a 20m cable, but that's the longest I have found thus far. Maybe my Google-fu is just failing me though, so correct me if I am wrong. (I'm searching Swedish retailers, Clas Ohlson & Biltema FTW) as that's my strongest of the languages of the EU. I speak German too, maybe I should try some German sites.)

Edit2: I have found some professional jobsite cable winders like this that are longer (but they are pretty expensive)

View attachment 663838

It's a different way of approaching things, with benefits and drawbacks.

They also get 400v 3 phase which is pretty cool.

View attachment 663840

I'm not sure what it would take to get anything beyond our 3-pole 240v in a residential setting, but it probably wouldn't be easy. It has to be possible for industrial users, but I don't even thing the main service line supports a way to do this, at least where I live. But this is a topic I don't know much about, so I might be wrong.

I would LOVE it if we could move to 230v 16a standard power circuits over here. After a brief, difficult transition period it would make life so much easier.
Seems to cap out at 50m for consumers here in France, though it's not that expensive (like 100-50€ and I can just walk in a shop or order on amazon and have it same/next day). French plugs are compatible with other EU plugs but slightly better in theory (they can keep polarity or some such), maybe that's why (but don't quote me on that, it's not my field). Also here my wall plugs are rated up to 16-20A with 220v so that's a LOT of watts. Each home has at least one plug rated at 30A also, you could run a lot of 4090s off that (6600W)!

In most of Europe it's usually a little bit less and they cap out at 16A with the odd 20A from what I have seen. Not exactly sure why that is.

edit: actually those 50m cables I found on Amazon seem to be made in Germany so would not even be a French thing then, and yes they are rated for the full 16A and 3500w etc. beep
 
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Seems to cap out at 50m for consumers here in France, though it's not that expensive (like 100-50€ and I can just walk in a shop or order on amazon and have it same/next day). French plugs are compatible with other EU plugs but slightly better in theory (they can keep polarity or some such), maybe that's why (but don't quote me on that, it's not my field). Also here my wall plugs are rated up to 16-20A with 220v so that's a LOT of watts. Each home has at least one plug rated at 30A also, you could run a lot of 4090s off that (6600W)!

In most of Europe it's usually a little bit less and they cap out at 16A with the odd 20A from what I have seen. Not exactly sure why that is.

edit: actually those 50m cables I found on Amazon seem to be made in Germany so would not even be a French thing then, and yes they are rated for the full 16A and 3500w etc. beep

I think what you are referring to here is that the German Schuko standard - like the older ungrounded plugs it further developed - doesn't define which side is neutral and which side is hot. This is not a factor of the physical connector, but rather the specification.

Countries that use the German Schuko styke outlet usually define in their regulations which side the neutral is on and which side the hot is on, but unfortunately they don't all agree with each other.

The effect of this is that devices made for the European market have to be designed in a way that allows for hot and neutral on either side, and this includes most for the French market as well as most devices sold there are pan-european models with combination plug that fits in both German Schuko and French outlets.
 
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My home has central heat with Natural Gas. I would never exchange that for electric heat of any kind. I don't care about all the hippie heat pump crap. Hydrocarbons are God's gift, use them.
 
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Hi. I am currently on new home. And there is local heating.So no electric.
But thx for repllies.

ps:
Bought Xbox Seriex X and new monitor. Very like it.

Now waiting for new rtx and new intels to bought.
 
My home has central heat with Natural Gas. I would never exchange that for electric heat of any kind. I don't care about all the hippie heat pump crap. Hydrocarbons are God's gift, use them.

I'm maybe not as gung-ho on hydrocarbons as you are, but for me it is about cost.

All else being equal, sure, the convenience of not dealing with oil (or coal) deliveries would be nice, and having an explosive gas pumped through your home and the potential for carbon monoxide release may not be the best thing ever...

That said, at least where I live, heating my home with a heat pump - while orders of magnitude cheaper than direct resistive heat - would cost approximately 3x more than my current gas furnace, and I have a pretty inefficient old furnace. (It looks almost new somehow, but it has a manufacture date in the early to mid 90's. Not quite sure what happened before I bought the place. Someone got a good deal on new old stock?)

As I see it if you like air conditioning (which I do) the difference in cost between a one way air conditioner and a two way heat pump is pretty marginal. Might as well install the heat pump and have an additional backup source for heat. And heck, who knows, if something happens some day and prices spike on my natural gas (or the furnace unexpectedly dies), maybe I'll be happy I have that backup heating source.

I would never take advantage of any of those incentives that give you lots of rebates and discounts on heat pump installation contingent upon permanently disabling my traditional heat source though. That's a very short term decision. It saves money now, but will cost a lot more long term.
 
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I'm maybe not as gung-ho on hydrocarbons as you are, but for me it is about cost.

All else being equal, sure, the convenience of not dealing with oil (or coal) deliveries would be nice, and having an explosive gas pumped through your home and the potential for carbon monoxide release may not be the best thing ever...

That said, at least where I live, heating my home with a heat pump - while orders of magnitude cheaper than direct resistive heat - would cost approximately 3x more than my current gas furnace, and I have a pretty inefficient old furnace. (It looks almost new somehow, but it has a manufacture date in the early to mid 90's. Not quite sure what happened before I bought the place. Someone got a good deal on new old stock?)

As I see it if you like air conditioning (which I do) the difference in cost between a one way air conditioner and a two way heat pump is pretty marginal. Might as well install the heat pump and have an additional backup source for heat. And heck, who knows, if something happens some day and prices spike on my natural gas (or the furnace unexpectedly dies), maybe I'll be happy I have that backup heating source.

I would never take advantage of any of those incentives that give you lots of rebates and discounts on heat pump installation contingent upon permanently disabling my traditional heat source though. That's a very short term decision. It saves money now, but will cost a lot more long term.

The way I see it, a heat pump only makes financial sense in place of resistive heat. To your point, in the future it's possible, but that hasn't been the case yet. Short of a civil war where petroleum producing states decide to cut off non-petroleum producing I can't see it. Good thing I live in Texas ;).
 
The way I see it, a heat pump only makes financial sense in place of resistive heat. To your point, in the future it's possible, but that hasn't been the case yet. Short of a civil war where petroleum producing states decide to cut off non-petroleum producing I can't see it. Good thing I live in Texas ;).
My gas furnace shit the bed last winter. Heating my house with heat pumps was about a wash for cost. That said a couple rooms were cold.
Having them as backup heat I'm not super motivated to have furnace fixed
 
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My gas furnace shit the bed last winter. Heating my house with heat pumps was about a wash for cost. That said a couple rooms were cold.
Having them as backup heat I'm not super motivated to have furnace fixed

As for the cost, it probably depends on where you are located.

The winter rate for electricity is relatively high here in Mass (compared to other places in the U.S, still pretty dman low compared to Europe and many other places in the world)

...and apparently gas is comparatively cheap here. (I don't have much to go by there.)

I created a spreadsheet a while back, compared how many BTU's of heating power I had used, how many therms of gas I had paid for, and compared that to how much electricity I would have used had I been using a heat pump for the same BTU's of heat, given efficiency figures and typical outside temps (as heat pump efficiency - unlike hydrocarbons - is very much dependent on the temperature delta).

I had to make a lot of educated guesses based on information I either did not have, or couldn't figure out exactly how to calculate (shit gets complicated) but in the end I landed on ~3x the money spent on electricity compared to using gas, given my rates here and my house, with my (probably pretty average) insulation (at least for New England)

Your mileage may (and probably does) vary very much depending on rates, climate and construction particulars where you live.

Where it starts getting interesting is if you then factor in installation cost.

Well, you can get some pretty serious incentives for heat pumps in many places. The federal tax credits are nice, but the state incentives are nuts. The state of Massachusetts gives you as much as $40k outright for a full home install, and you can finance the rest with a zero percent 7 year loan underwritten by the state.

Compare that to gas furnace install incentives having disappeared. You used to get some incentives for choosing an efficient gas burner, but those don't seem available anymore.


So, for me, where my gas burner still works just fine, and I was not getting any incentives (other than the federal) on the heat pump (as I live in a town with municipal gas and light, and all of the incentives go through the big statewide utilities) if I didn't have heat and needed a system right now, I'm not sure would wind up being cheaper when you factopr all costs, install, use and incentives spread out over a - what - 20 year lifespan?
 
My gas furnace shit the bed last winter. Heating my house with heat pumps was about a wash for cost. That said a couple rooms were cold.
Having them as backup heat I'm not super motivated to have furnace fixed
Your power bill didn't go up noticeably?. It's an air conditioner in reverse. Air conditioners use a good amount of power.
 
As for the cost, it probably depends on where you are located.

The winter rate for electricity is relatively high here in Mass (compared to other places in the U.S, still pretty dman low compared to Europe and many other places in the world)

...and apparently gas is comparatively cheap here. (I don't have much to go by there.)

I created a spreadsheet a while back, compared how many BTU's of heating power I had used, how many therms of gas I had paid for, and compared that to how much electricity I would have used had I been using a heat pump for the same BTU's of heat, given efficiency figures and typical outside temps (as heat pump efficiency - unlike hydrocarbons - is very much dependent on the temperature delta).

I had to make a lot of educated guesses based on information I either did not have, or couldn't figure out exactly how to calculate (shit gets complicated) but in the end I landed on ~3x the money spent on electricity compared to using gas, given my rates here and my house, with my (probably pretty average) insulation (at least for New England)

Your mileage may (and probably does) vary very much depending on rates, climate and construction particulars where you live.

Where it starts getting interesting is if you then factor in installation cost.

Well, you can get some pretty serious incentives for heat pumps in many places. The federal tax credits are nice, but the state incentives are nuts. The state of Massachusetts gives you as much as $40k outright for a full home install, and you can finance the rest with a zero percent 7 year loan underwritten by the state.

Compare that to gas furnace install incentives having disappeared. You used to get some incentives for choosing an efficient gas burner, but those don't seem available anymore.


So, for me, where my gas burner still works just fine, and I was not getting any incentives (other than the federal) on the heat pump (as I live in a town with municipal gas and light, and all of the incentives go through the big statewide utilities) if I didn't have heat and needed a system right now, I'm not sure would wind up being cheaper when you factopr all costs, install, use and incentives spread out over a - what - 20 year lifespan?
Regarding your calculations, did you account for all the heat going out your chimney/exhaust?

I installed my heat pumps myself so installation was minimal. The smaller unit was about $1800 Canadian, the larger triple head unit was about $6000


I have no doubt I'm heating less of my house, but in reality electricity went up $150 a month, and gas basically dropped $100-200. Gas bill was kinda drunk because they didn't read my meter every month, so estimated some months, and they were way high.

To be clear I'm not advocating for replacing a functional gas appliance with a heat pump. That's dumb. I installed mine primarily for AC, and the heating feature kinda saved me.
 
Regarding your calculations, did you account for all the heat going out your chimney/exhaust?

I installed my heat pumps myself so installation was minimal. The smaller unit was about $1800 Canadian, the larger triple head unit was about $6000


I have no doubt I'm heating less of my house, but in reality electricity went up $150 a month, and gas basically dropped $100-200. Gas bill was kinda drunk because they didn't read my meter every month, so estimated some months, and they were way high.

To be clear I'm not advocating for replacing a functional gas appliance with a heat pump. That's dumb. I installed mine primarily for AC, and the heating feature kinda saved me.

My understanding is that is built into the efficiency ratings, because heat going out the chimney is pretty mu h the only way you lose heat when burning hulysrocarbons. Everything else is going into the house one way or another, so if not for chimney losses, there isn't even any reason to have an efficiency rating.
 
Regarding your calculations, did you account for all the heat going out your chimney/exhaust?

I installed my heat pumps myself so installation was minimal. The smaller unit was about $1800 Canadian, the larger triple head unit was about $6000


I have no doubt I'm heating less of my house, but in reality electricity went up $150 a month, and gas basically dropped $100-200. Gas bill was kinda drunk because they didn't read my meter every month, so estimated some months, and they were way high.

To be clear I'm not advocating for replacing a functional gas appliance with a heat pump. That's dumb. I installed mine primarily for AC, and the heating feature kinda saved me.
We're replacing the central air furnace in our SF Bay Area home with individual room mini splits for really one reason- my mom refuses to turn on the heater to a comfortable temperature because "it's a waste of money to heat the whole house." Didn't do any calculations on whether gas or electricity will be cheaper; it'll probably be a wash. But the psychological hurdle is something that would be impossible to get over with my mom, so individual mini splits it is. Gonna have a bunch of condensors outside because I'm only using single head units.
My understanding is that is built into the efficiency ratings, because heat going out the chimney is pretty mu h the only way you lose heat when burning hulysrocarbons. Everything else is going into the house one way or another, so if not for chimney losses, there isn't even any reason to have an efficiency rating.
Central air loses some efficiency through the air ducts while mini splits lose very little in the refrigerant piping. That generally isn't factored into efficiency ratings because the ducting in every house is different.
 
We're replacing the central air furnace in our SF Bay Area home with individual room mini splits for really one reason- my mom refuses to turn on the heater to a comfortable temperature because "it's a waste of money to heat the whole house." Didn't do any calculations on whether gas or electricity will be cheaper; it'll probably be a wash. But the psychological hurdle is something that would be impossible to get over with my mom, so individual mini splits it is. Gonna have a bunch of condensors outside because I'm only using single head units.

Central air loses some efficiency through the air ducts while mini splits lose very little in the refrigerant piping. That generally isn't factored into efficiency ratings because the ducting in every house is different.

Ah, but there are no ducts in my house (or any house I've ever lived in).

It's all water filled radiators. Burner heats the water, circulator moves the hot water through the radiators. Radiators get hot and heat the house.

I sometimes forget that people heat with forced air, as it is just so uncommon around here.
 
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Ah, but there are no ducts in my house (or any house I've ever lived in).

It's all water filled radiators. Burner heats the water, circulator moves the hot water through the radiators.

I sometimes forget that people heat with forced air, as it is just so uncommon around here.
It's common to use forced air in the south and western parts of the country. The more I learn about the northern U.S. the more alien it seems to me.
 
@OFaceSIG
i can mount an ac the opposite way (release the heat inside while cooling outside air), still doesnt mean its a heat pump or works like one, and i can have a heat pump in the ground,
with no AC installed whatsoever. might wanna read up on stuff before posting ..
 
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