Anyway to use a PC mouse with L4D on Xbox?

[Spare-Flair]

Some friends want to play Left 4 Dead on Xbox 360. However, I simply CANNOT play FPS games on a console with a controller. It gives me cramps and makes me dizzy because I can't coordinate the movements. I am a very sensitive mouse player. When I play FPS on PC, I practically don't move the mouse at all. Switching to a console and a clumsy thumbstick, it goes all over the place and makes me feel nauseus and I simply can't aim with precision or move properly with the other stick or jump or coordinate any of these things. Finally, my brain can't decide if the thumbstick is like a mouse look or a joystick. I'm constantly flipping between Y flip and normal for up/down because my brain can't decide which is which and subsequently, it just doesn't work at all.

Is there any way to use a mouse and keyboard for L4D on Xbox? I know there is a peripheral for PS3.

Articles like this don't give me much hope either.
http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/09/02/pax08-left-4-dead-is-better-with-a-keyboard

 

[JohnleMVP]

Only with a peripheral like xFPS, but most poeple say it sux.

 

[Rebel44]

Play it on PC.

 

[Nate_MachV]

if you wanted to use KB&M, you should have got it for PC...

 

[Spare-Flair]

Thanks for the unhelpful comments Rebell44 and Nate_MachV

If you read the post, it's because my friends with Xboxes want to play. I don't ever intend to own an Xbox or a console again for the foreseeable future. I just thought there might be an easy way to hook up a M/K to my friend's Xbox.

Turns out the requirements are actually a XIM for $85, a XFPS 3.0 SNIPER PLUS for $100, and a portable computer ($300 for netbook). I'm not spending $400 just to use a M/K on a console. That's ridiculous. Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)

 

[Freezebyte]

Thanks for the unhelpful comments Rebell44 and Nate_MachV

If you read the post, it's because my friends with Xboxes want to play. I don't ever intend to own an Xbox or a console again for the foreseeable future. I just thought there might be an easy way to hook up a M/K to my friend's Xbox.

Turns out the requirements are actually a XIM for $85, a XFPS 3.0 SNIPER PLUS for $100, and a portable computer ($300 for netbook). I'm not spending $400 just to use a M/K on a console. That's ridiculous. Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)

Because Microsoft and most console companies want to keep the complex "PC interface" usage away from consoles to make it "simpler" for the end consumer

 

[Babbster]

Because Microsoft and most console companies want to keep the complex "PC interface" usage away from consoles to make it "simpler" for the end consumer

When you're putting a focus on online play, there's also uniformity of experience to consider. If there's some weapon that works particularly well with a keyboard/mouse (or the entire game works better that way), putting controller gamers up against KB/M buttkickers would ruin the experience. It could turn into a "cheat mode" and cheating generally isn't good for competitive gaming.

 

[Freezebyte]

When you're putting a focus on online play, there's also uniformity of experience to consider. If there's some weapon that works particularly well with a keyboard/mouse (or the entire game works better that way), putting controller gamers up against KB/M buttkickers would ruin the experience. It could turn into a "cheat mode" and cheating generally isn't good for competitive gaming.

Tru too

 

[GN85]

If you get to play with a keyboard and mouse, I'm sure you'd pretty much rape the other players in multiplayer so bad that they'd just leave.

Spare-Flair it takes practice, if you play many FPS games on console, you can get used to it eventually. I feel the same way as you, I go crazy with a regular controller, but I have a friend that buys and plays pretty much every FPS game that comes out, and for him it's the complete opposite. This is why I think a lot of PC gamers stick to their PC games; there's a very steep learning curve when switching from PC to console FPS games.

 

[Zellio2009]

Isn't playing a online multiplayer fps on Xbox live with a kb/m considering cheating?

Doesn't Microsoft ban you for it?

 

[Mac[X-D]]

Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)

this isn't meant to start anything but the PS3 does support KB/M through blue tooth and usb but only the game devs can put the support into a game to use these items and i think devs for whatever system think that the addition of KB/M support in there console games just make them PC games and there really isn't a need for it. and UT is the exception but it on was supported on the PS3 if i am not mistaken.

i tried that FX controller for the PS3 and it does suck the rate and mouse accelerate are horrible and its very awkward to use in my opinion. but i haven't tried the xFPS but i have read it isn't very good at all.

 

[RESTfulADI]

Thanks for the unhelpful comments Rebell44 and Nate_MachV

If you read the post, it's because my friends with Xboxes want to play. I don't ever intend to own an Xbox or a console again for the foreseeable future. I just thought there might be an easy way to hook up a M/K to my friend's Xbox.

Turns out the requirements are actually a XIM for $85, a XFPS 3.0 SNIPER PLUS for $100, and a portable computer ($300 for netbook). I'm not spending $400 just to use a M/K on a console. That's ridiculous. Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)

Slippery slope. Allowing mouse/kb on Xbox would eventually force everyone who cares about winning to use it or lose. Halo 3 or Gears no scope sniper headshots would become a joke, to say the least.

 

[PWMK2]

WHOA, there are lots of threadcrappers here.

He just asked if there was a way to get keyboard controls on the 360. There is, as the OP has described, but it is very expensive and does not work very well. No need to start up the age-old philosophical disucssion about gamepads vs. keyboards.

I'm just going to say the same thing that I've always said: that to me, using either a gamepad or a keyboard has close to no effect on my performance in most games. Some games have borked console controls, however, and some games have borked PC controls. In that case, playing it on the correct platform was always better for me but I've never had a problem playing an FPS with a gamepad. If you are, here is my three-step process to playing FPSs will on a gamepad:

1. Plug the gamepad in (skip to 2 if it is wireless)
2. Play some games

Ta-dah! Repeat this process enough and you will find your performance miraculously increasing. I can't describe what makes it work, but it has something to do with actually getting good at doing shit you're not used to. This way, even you can play UT3 on PS3 against people using keyboards with your gamepad and win. Yes, I have done this and no, it does not require a medicine man to come and sprinkle goat blood onto your console over twenty consecutive days.

 

[RESTfulADI]

WHOA, there are lots of threadcrappers here.

He just asked if there was a way to get keyboard controls on the 360. There is, as the OP has described, but it is very expensive and does not work very well. No need to start up the age-old philosophical disucssion about gamepads vs. keyboards.

Afterward he asked "Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)"

Btw, I would be willing to bet big money that I would beat you at any of the popular shooters if I were using mouse/kb and you a controller, it's not even close.

 

[next-Jin]

Afterward he asked "Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)"

Btw, I would be willing to bet big money that I would beat you at any of the popular shooters if I were using mouse/kb and you a controller, it's not even close.

Pretty sure he wasen't saying that the controller is better but,

I have the XIM, and xFPS Sniper. I spent at least a week going back and forth trying to get it to feel like a PC Mouse. It's impossible and feels like shit. It works on Call of Duty 4 but that "blah" feeling is still there. It's a waste of money and time imo.

Your best bet is to just use the controller. I mean it is L4D so spray and pry applies a hell of alot more than CS.

 

[PWMK2]

Pretty sure he wasen't saying that the controller is better but,

You're correct. I wasn't saying it was better. I was saying that they are pretty much equal if you actually spend the time playing on the thing and getting good at it. 99% of people saying that gamepads suck for FPSs are PC FPS players who have little experience playing FPSs on consoles. Those of us who grew up playing FPSs on both PCs and consoles laugh at all that crap.

Afterward he asked "Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)"

Btw, I would be willing to bet big money that I would beat you at any of the popular shooters if I were using mouse/kb and you a controller, it's not even close.

And what do you base this on? How in the world could you possibly be willing to bet money on this? This is just plain and simple dogmatism.

I couldn't bet money with you on this because I don't know your general skill level. As such, even if we were 100% equal in skill, I wouldn't want to make the bet with you because that's still a 50% chance I lose "big money."

I would like to posit this: fighter pilots do not use keyboards and mice. They don't use gamepads either, but if it was truly about accuracy, we would be using joysticks and neither gamepads nor keyboards.

I'm not trying to further some ideology. What I am saying is that people do get good at using gamepads. It is possible. You just need to actually practice using the damn thing. Gamepads aren't scary and they aren't going to bite your thumb off.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Thanks for the unhelpful comments Rebell44 and Nate_MachV

If you read the post, it's because my friends with Xboxes want to play. I don't ever intend to own an Xbox or a console again for the foreseeable future. I just thought there might be an easy way to hook up a M/K to my friend's Xbox.

Turns out the requirements are actually a XIM for $85, a XFPS 3.0 SNIPER PLUS for $100, and a portable computer ($300 for netbook). I'm not spending $400 just to use a M/K on a console. That's ridiculous. Why do no consoles have native support through USB? (aside from UT)

u cant. tell ur mates to get a pc man.

 

[Ub3rn00b]

Well the XIM was already mentioned which requires you buy the XIM for 70 or 80 bux and the XFPs for another 80 bux or so. Then you said you would have to buy a portable laptop or whatever. Well, maybe in some cases. But here's my setup:

XIM 2 (or XIM 360 as it's being called). Does not require XFPS. The XIM 2 is built into a regular XBOX 360 controller. It's got 2 usb cables coming out of it. One goes to your computer and the other goes to XBOX 360.
I have a monitor with DVI and VGA inputs. DVI is my PC input and VGA is my XBOX 360 input. Using the XIM 2 (or XIM 1 also), you use the same keyboard mouse that you use on your computer. You can adjust DPI and use whatever mouse software you want on your PC. The XIM 360 has software that has different settings you can adjust like sensitivity, translation exponent (long story), deadzone, mouse input rate, and some others that I can't think of right now. There is also other software that has these settings already figured out for you for different games and all you do is adjust speed and acceleration to your liking. L4D is one of the games in the pull down menu for games that are already figured out for you.

The XIM360 does cost about 200 bux shipped, but it's the closest thing you are going to get to a PC feel on the XBOX 360 and you can nearly not tell any difference at all between PC and 360 on games like COD 4 and COD 5. I would say Halo 3 is pretty close to PC but I have nothing to compare it to. I can tell you that I've used the XFPS alone, XFPs with smartjoy frag modded, XFPs with XIM and the XIM 360 (XIM 2) and the XIM 360 is far beyond any of the others. Well worth the 200 bux IMO. I can't use thumbsticks worth a darn and would have no use for an xbox 360 without keyboard mouse support.

Me personally, I'd pay 500 bux for a XIM 360

Another note: XIM360 also offers analog trigger support whereas nothing else does. That means most importantly (to me anyway) that you can program the triggers to your racing wheel pedals so you can use your PC racing wheel (any type) on your 360. You can adjust deadzone on those triggers as well, giving you the perfect feel for your racing games. You can also use any joystick that you want for flying games or whatever.

Also, for driving vehicles like in Halo 3 and UT3, there is a "driving mode". Where as normally, you would have to keep moving the mouse to turn a vehicle, in driving mode, mouse start point is the same as not moving the thumbstick. If you move it left a certain amount, you are at full left until you move the mouse back to the start point. And right, same deal, etc. Very intuitive and great to have.

And does it make it unfair? No. I have a few friends that use keyboard/mouse that are generals (level 50s) in Halo 3, but most of my friends that are 50s are thumbstick users. All it does is help out the people who are horrible with thumbsticks and make the game playable and fun to people like me who grew up using keyboard/mouse for FPS games and have no intention or business even attemption switching to thumbstick controls to get headshots in Team Swat

Me, I'm only like a 45 in Halo 3 in Swat and 37 in Team Slayer and maybe 42 in Lonewolves. I mean I suck in general. I have some good games and some bad games just like anyone else.

 

[mycomputersucks]

i find it odd that they haven't released a kb/m accessory. They would sell millions for sure. and for all the kids who cry about getting beat will just have to go and buy a kb/m accessory. It wouldn't even need to be a full sized kb, something the size of a number pad would work for most applications. they could make so much money, i know i'd buy one if it were an official release w/ actual in game support.

 

[noobman]

As far as I know, you cannot connect a mouse to the Xbox360. Even if you could, it wouldn't be usable as a controller.

There used to be a device that let you connect a keyboard/mouse as a recognized controller, but it has since been banned by Microsoft.

 

[noobman]

i find it odd that they haven't released a kb/m accessory. They would sell millions for sure. and for all the kids who cry about getting beat will just have to go and buy a kb/m accessory. It wouldn't even need to be a full sized kb, something the size of a number pad would work for most applications. they could make so much money, i know i'd buy one if it were an official release w/ actual in game support.

I don't think it would sell well.

The market for a keyboard/mouse as a controller is limited to PC gamers. PC gamers all have PCs (duh) and would thus opt to play most of their FPS games on the PC. Most of the console gamers I know all think that the keyboard/mouse is worse than the controller.

The only games that would really sell the device are the 360 exclusive first person shooters. For the time being the only good one is Halo 3.

 

[dwk]

i find it odd that they haven't released a kb/m accessory. They would sell millions for sure. and for all the kids who cry about getting beat will just have to go and buy a kb/m accessory. It wouldn't even need to be a full sized kb, something the size of a number pad would work for most applications. they could make so much money, i know i'd buy one if it were an official release w/ actual in game support.

because most people like to play console games from there living room in recliner or a couch and the controller works perfectly for that because it just fits in your hands and you play... M/K not so easy. if you like M/K stick to PC if you like playing from your living room and relaxing stick to console... simple as that. "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

 

[dwk]

btw XIM360 is cheating hands down... it is playing the game the way it was not intended to be played. Does it give you an advantage.....maybe it could be argued but it is still not the way the game was designed.. it really comes down to adapting... I did it hardcore PC player right here and now I play console with controller and love it once you get use to it.

 

[RESTfulADI]

You're correct. I wasn't saying it was better. I was saying that they are pretty much equal if you actually spend the time playing on the thing and getting good at it. 99% of people saying that gamepads suck for FPSs are PC FPS players who have little experience playing FPSs on consoles. Those of us who grew up playing FPSs on both PCs and consoles laugh at all that crap.



And what do you base this on? How in the world could you possibly be willing to bet money on this? This is just plain and simple dogmatism.

I couldn't bet money with you on this because I don't know your general skill level. As such, even if we were 100% equal in skill, I wouldn't want to make the bet with you because that's still a 50% chance I lose "big money."

I would like to posit this: fighter pilots do not use keyboards and mice. They don't use gamepads either, but if it was truly about accuracy, we would be using joysticks and neither gamepads nor keyboards.

I'm not trying to further some ideology. What I am saying is that people do get good at using gamepads. It is possible. You just need to actually practice using the damn thing. Gamepads aren't scary and they aren't going to bite your thumb off.

Maybe I came across religious about this, I did not intend to. The bet I was talking about assumed equal skill level, I just didn't say it. I wasn't trying to further an ideology, but I just cannot understand how rational people can think that analog sticks and face buttons that require you to take your thumb off the aiming stick to use them can be as good or even better than mouse/kb. Fighter jets don't move or behave like first person shooters, so I don't think it's a fair comparison, but if there was an aircraft that could turn on a dime as fast as you can in an FPS with a mouse I think they would definitely need to come up with a better control system than a joystick or they wouldn't be able to take advantage of the craft's abilities.

The people who grew up on console FPS are very very good at using controllers I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean that controllers are as good. They might laugh at mouse/kb but that's because they don't know any better. They don't know that you can turn 180 in a split second and not wait for the stick to turn you, they don't know that you don't have to give up aiming control to use the actions bound to face buttons (bumper jumper transformed Halo ask any pro), they don't know that you can place pixel on pixel with relative ease in a split second and that you don't need to aim by strafing or have oversized crosshairs that turn red to tell you when to shoot, and that you don't need your viewport zoomed in with a nausea-inducing 65 degree FOV to compensate for the lack of resolution and granularity.

The only reason certain shooters work relatively well with controllers is because they were intentionally dumbed down to compensate for the liabilities of the controller. Auto-aim, no recoil, huge crosshairs that light up red to tell you when to shoot, weapons that fire in wide groups, the list goes on.

 

[mycomputersucks]

I don't think it would sell well.

because most people like to play console games from there living room in recliner or a couch and the controller works perfectly for that because it just fits in your hands and you play... M/K not so easy.

i see you're points but i disagree. back when i played WoW i had it hooked to my 50" hdtv. i put more than a few hours into it w/ a full sized keyboard on my lap and the mouse on a pillow. it wasn't ideal, but it did the job and was worth it.

the m/kb interface is pretty universal, i think a lot of non-pc gamers would catch on quickly. besides, i'm sure a large percentage of gamers own multiple consoles and a gaming pc.

i dont' know, to each his own but i'd like to at least have m/kb as an option.

 

[dwk]

i see you're points but i disagree. back when i played WoW i had it hooked to my 50" hdtv. i put more than a few hours into it w/ a full sized keyboard on my lap and the mouse on a pillow. it wasn't ideal, but it did the job and was worth it.

the m/kb interface is pretty universal, i think a lot of non-pc gamers would catch on quickly. besides, i'm sure a large percentage of gamers own multiple consoles and a gaming pc.

i dont' know, to each his own but i'd like to at least have m/kb as an option.

That might work for WoW... but playing an intense FPS with a pillow as a mouse pad lol not as much. It is just not natural to sit on your couch or recliner with a M/K but with a controller is.. not saying it is like this for everybody as you said you liked it but most people would agree. Plus you are missing out on the money aspect of the controller... console game makers make LOTS of money of controllers/accessories because it is their product and you have to buy a controller in order to play on their console granted there are 3rd party controllers out there but they had to buy the rights to make them. If they allowed K/M then any company could make them and console companies would loose out on a lot of money. K/M i bet will not happen on this gen of consoles.. maybe next gen but I still doubt it then because it is pretty much accepted that you use a controller for consoles. It really comes down to adapt or stay on PC as your options.

 

[blizzle]

because most people like to play console games from there living room in recliner or a couch and the controller works perfectly for that because it just fits in your hands and you play... M/K not so easy. if you like M/K stick to PC if you like playing from your living room and relaxing stick to console... simple as that. "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

I beg to differ.

That cake tastes damn good.

Yeah it's not as easy as just using a controller but it can be done.

 

[dwk]

I beg to differ.

[-IMG]http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/aamaurice/AYA.jpg[/IMG]

That cake tastes damn good.

Yeah it's not as easy as just using a controller but it can be done.

oh I am not saying it can't be done just saying it is not practical for most people. Plus you added a recliner to your computer desk a lot of people have their consoles setup in their living room with more than one seat

 

[Domingo]

I've got my PC hooked up to my TV so I can chill on my couch while playing. It's pretty easy. Any video card that will actually push HDTV resolutions will have a DVI-out. Just connect that to your TV via either DVI or an HDMI adapter. For audio, you can use stereo cables or a multi-out.
Not much tougher than a console.
The catch is having the hardware to push 1080p numbers, but I guess the GTX260's are around $200 these days.
It's not plug-and-play like a console, but it's still not hard to do.

 

[noobman]

I've got my PC hooked up to my TV so I can chill on my couch while playing. It's pretty easy. Any video card that will actually push HDTV resolutions will have a DVI-out. Just connect that to your TV via either DVI or an HDMI adapter. For audio, you can use stereo cables or a multi-out.
Not much tougher than a console.
The catch is having the hardware to push 1080p numbers, but I guess the GTX260's are around $200 these days.
It's not plug-and-play like a console, but it's still not hard to do.

Playing PC games at 720p is a piece of cake. If the HDTV in the basement didn't have such poor VGA input, I might consider it for a Crysis weekend.

 

[JohnShaft]

I was checking out the XFPS 3.0 Sniper videos on youtube and it looks pretty accurate. I think its the newest edition of the xfps. I might get one over the holidays to test it out, I think it costs $80-90.

 

[dwk]

I was checking out the XFPS 3.0 Sniper videos on youtube and it looks pretty accurate. I think its the newest edition of the xfps. I might get one over the holidays to test it out, I think it costs $80-90.

cheater

 

[next-Jin]

I was checking out the XFPS 3.0 Sniper videos on youtube and it looks pretty accurate. I think its the newest edition of the xfps. I might get one over the holidays to test it out, I think it costs $80-90.

Its garbage by itself, a pc gamer pretty much has to get the XIM or XIM2 which even then is not perfect.

 

[Spare-Flair]

I would like to posit this: fighter pilots do not use keyboards and mice. They don't use gamepads either, but if it was truly about accuracy, we would be using joysticks and neither gamepads nor keyboards.

That logic is completely flawed and absolute nonsense. I agree with other things that you said but the application is completely different. Pilots use joysticks because it is a proven application for human control of roll, pitch, and yaw. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of aiming a crosshair or cursor.

A joystick and similarily a thumbstick is not as accurate or stable as a mouse due to the fact that a return to centre counterforce is required to stabilize the stick since the rate that it reports is dependant on angle. You are constantly fighting a joystick or a thumbstick and therefore a deadzone is required. A dead zone is the area of stick positioning that doesn't register. Without it, the crosshair would drift or shake as thumbsticks never settle to a rest position and where they stop is imprecise. (and where resting your thumb on the stick causes slight angular changes that will move it from center. Most games have built in deadzone to compensate for this and that is why mice do not work in console games without complicated hardware and even a PC controlling it like a XIM.

A mouse is much more stable and accuracte in it operates purely on reporting x-y coordinates on a flat 2D plane where the sensor is always directly above the target and does not drift. This makes it slow however and impossible to have a variable rate of movement at the boundaries and you also need a large surface to use them. Joysticks however, allow more flexibility in the things you need to fly a plane, ie: pitch and yaw, with variable input depending on the angle of the stick occuyping a small footprint that is easily manipulated by the operator. Imagine you are an architect or designer who needs to click on or target the corners of a building you are designing or placing the coordinates for a 3D model. Are you going to use a mouse or a joystick to do this? Joysticks CAN BE accurate, but they are not used FOR accuracy. You are confusing design with function.

Finally, my difficulty with thumbsticks, as I elaborated previously is that my brain can't decide if it's a joystick or a mouse-look and so I am constantly changing the Y-flip in games and I can't get used to either. They both feel wrong at times. Since I see it from top down, part of me sees a D-Pad and so when I want the crosshair to go up I press up. But when I am concentrating on playing, another part of my brain interprets the proprioception signals from my hands as controlling a joystick and then it starts wanting to push it down to raise pitch. I have been trying for years and it simply will not work for me.

Do any companies make joysticks for the Xbox? A full-fledged joystick I can grip might solve my problem. It would need to have a second stick though, to simulate the movement thumbstick.

 

[PWMK2]

That logic is completely flawed and absolute nonsense. I agree with other things that you said but the application is completely different. Pilots use joysticks because it is a proven application for human control of roll, pitch, and yaw. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of aiming a crosshair or cursor.

A joystick and similarily a thumbstick is not as accurate or stable as a mouse due to the fact that a return to centre counterforce is required to stabilize the stick since the rate that it reports is dependant on angle. You are constantly fighting a joystick or a thumbstick and therefore a deadzone is required. A dead zone is the area of stick positioning that doesn't register. Without it, the crosshair would drift or shake as thumbsticks never settle to a rest position and where they stop is imprecise. (and where resting your thumb on the stick causes slight angular changes that will move it from center. Most games have built in deadzone to compensate for this and that is why mice do not work in console games without complicated hardware and even a PC controlling it like a XIM.

A mouse is much more stable and accuracte in it operates purely on reporting x-y coordinates on a flat 2D plane where the sensor is always directly above the target and does not drift. This makes it slow however and impossible to have a variable rate of movement at the boundaries and you also need a large surface to use them. Joysticks however, allow more flexibility in the things you need to fly a plane, ie: pitch and yaw, with variable input depending on the angle of the stick occuyping a small footprint that is easily manipulated by the operator. Imagine you are an architect or designer who needs to click on or target the corners of a building you are designing or placing the coordinates for a 3D model. Are you going to use a mouse or a joystick to do this? Joysticks CAN BE accurate, but they are not used FOR accuracy. You are confusing design with function.

Finally, my difficulty with thumbsticks, as I elaborated previously is that my brain can't decide if it's a joystick or a mouse-look and so I am constantly changing the Y-flip in games and I can't get used to either. They both feel wrong at times. Since I see it from top down, part of me sees a D-Pad and so when I want the crosshair to go up I press up. But when I am concentrating on playing, another part of my brain interprets the proprioception signals from my hands as controlling a joystick and then it starts wanting to push it down to raise pitch. I have been trying for years and it simply will not work for me.

Do any companies make joysticks for the Xbox? A full-fledged joystick I can grip might solve my problem. It would need to have a second stick though, to simulate the movement thumbstick.

If we were talking about the accuracy of aiming a crosshair or a cursor, then we would be settled then. Everyone would be agreeing that gamepads would be equal to mice in this regard. Given a high enough resolution and a decent gamepad, hitting the target isn't the problem. What most people find troublematic is that many console FPSs have the sensitivity set way too low and sometimes this isn't even adjustable. This makes it so that it is very hard to turn around, and in a game like Perfect Dark Zero this was a real problem for some people. However, people are also forgetting that games like Cod 4 or Bioshock on the PC don't let you do a complete turn in a split second either. It depends on the game.

Yes, you are constantly fighting against the thumbstick itself when playing. This isn't debateable. But whether or not this translates to a real difference in whether or not you can aim accurately IS debateable. In theory, it sounds like it might make a difference, but in practice I see / feel almost no difference. Yes, if you are using Windows the thought of using a gamepad while you're, say, browsing the internet is retarded. But it's not actually that retarded given that correct acceleration settings are used, and many people have already come into contact with this if they have IBM / Lenovo notebooks. Yes, I'm talking about the pointing stick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick). I know people have hated them, but honestly after using it enough I got used to it to the point where I don't *need* to have a mouse anymore. Some people have said that they are less accurate, but there's no way to really tell for certain because people skilled in using them are also at a low sample. So there's nothing you can tell statistically.

And while we're on talking about the notion of accuracy, I also need to bring up that any thumbstick will be more accurate than the WASD keys just from the way that keys are set up. This of course does not apply to aiming but rather character placement, but even character placement needs to be accurate at times, and this I would give to the gamepad. For instance, if you need to move your character forward, on a keyboard you would have to press the W key. You don't have an option to "halfway" press it like you would if you were controlling your character with a thumbstick. So, if you are moving your character with a keyboard, you only have 8 different directions you can move in. This is obviously much greater with a joystick. These above points are why I am describing the gamepad and keyboard as being equal for many people. It might not be for you, but it is for me.

Now, as for joysticks on the 360, Hori announced something a while back (http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/21/hori-ace-combat-joystick-for-xbox-360-on-display/) but I don't know if they actually went and made them.

Maybe I came across religious about this, I did not intend to. The bet I was talking about assumed equal skill level, I just didn't say it. I wasn't trying to further an ideology, but I just cannot understand how rational people can think that analog sticks and face buttons that require you to take your thumb off the aiming stick to use them can be as good or even better than mouse/kb. Fighter jets don't move or behave like first person shooters, so I don't think it's a fair comparison, but if there was an aircraft that could turn on a dime as fast as you can in an FPS with a mouse I think they would definitely need to come up with a better control system than a joystick or they wouldn't be able to take advantage of the craft's abilities.

The people who grew up on console FPS are very very good at using controllers I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean that controllers are as good. They might laugh at mouse/kb but that's because they don't know any better. They don't know that you can turn 180 in a split second and not wait for the stick to turn you, they don't know that you don't have to give up aiming control to use the actions bound to face buttons (bumper jumper transformed Halo ask any pro), they don't know that you can place pixel on pixel with relative ease in a split second and that you don't need to aim by strafing or have oversized crosshairs that turn red to tell you when to shoot, and that you don't need your viewport zoomed in with a nausea-inducing 65 degree FOV to compensate for the lack of resolution and granularity.

The only reason certain shooters work relatively well with controllers is because they were intentionally dumbed down to compensate for the liabilities of the controller. Auto-aim, no recoil, huge crosshairs that light up red to tell you when to shoot, weapons that fire in wide groups, the list goes on.

I never said anything about laughing at kb/m. I was talking about laughing at this notion that gamepad is so gimped you can't even play the game accurately. Which is false.

Most of the things you listed are artifacts of resolution, not the input method. Just four years ago, no video game console outputted at a resolution higher than 720x480. As you can tell, this is really shitty, and it might also have something to do with "oversized crosshairs" because everything had to be oversized if you were to even see anything.
Also, like I said above, not even every PC game lets you turn in a split second. Bioshock is an example. It's not the input method, it's the software.