Any improvement on the black side for the past 5 years?

|cpm

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Hi,

I think I'm not the only one looking for "dark black" but may be they are better monitors for black that 5 years ago ?

I'm running with a Dell U2414H and a UP2516D I find the former "ok" and the latter good. for my usage, (casual gaming , photo editing , art book design and finally home entertanement).
The only thing that I don't really like the amount of back light (black level if you prefer) when using them at night for browsing of watching video.

Micro led/ oled /mutiple layer / are not there yet (not really).

Is it worth it to go back to VA ? (regular VA, as I cant afford 512 local dimming one)
Or is the improvement not that great. I had a VA panel 15 years or so ago, I don't recall how it was.
 

MaZa

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In monitors? No. Even VA panels they use are subgrade compared to what they are really capable of these days on TV's. With monitors we get 2000:1 contrast ratio at maximum and while it is better than any IPS or TN panel it is still piss poor, blacks are not even remotely black unless you use it in bright room. I have been using Samsung TV and my small Eizo FG2421 until above mentioned LG48CX gets released.
 

MistaSparkul

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What do you mean by OLED is not there yet, not really? When it comes to MicroLED and Dual Layer LCD yes those are not there yet but OLED is now here and ready. LG CX with 4k120Hz gsync HDR support and coming in a price point well below LCD alternatives that have the same ballpark specs (4k, 120Hz, Gsync, HDR). Just get one and never look back at trash LCDs ever again except for stuff like spreadsheets and what not.
 

bananadude

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I've noticed terrible QC with VA monitors lately too... I went through loads trying to find a decent one after my old IPS went bust, figured I'd try VA for a change. I must have tried 10 different models, all bleed-ridden junk, horrible viewing angles, colour shift and obvious ghosting in most games. LCD's are in a sorry state, and I'll be glad when I can finally bid good riddance with the 48" CX. Yeah it's a bit bigger than I'd like, but I'll make it work... can't be dealing with LCD anymore.
 

5150Joker

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What do you mean by OLED is not there yet, not really? When it comes to MicroLED and Dual Layer LCD yes those are not there yet but OLED is now here and ready. LG CX with 4k120Hz gsync HDR support and coming in a price point well below LCD alternatives that have the same ballpark specs (4k, 120Hz, Gsync, HDR). Just get one and never look back at trash LCDs ever again except for stuff like spreadsheets and what not.
What's the input lag on those? That and motion clarity. Blacks are nice but no substitute for the other two factors in a display.

OP: VA is terrible for fps games but okay for everything else.
 

MistaSparkul

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What's the input lag on those? That and motion clarity. Blacks are nice but no substitute for the other two factors in a display.

OP: VA is terrible for fps games but okay for everything else.
As good as 120Hz can possibly be. The only way to lower input lag and increase motion clarity even further is to up the refresh rate but no display connection allows for that right now at 4k. Although BFI is an alternative to increasing motion clarity without higher Hz but that cannot be used at the same time as gsync.
 

|cpm

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What do you mean by OLED is not there yet, not really? .
I mean that it's starting to be there in laptop in 13' and 15' .. that it has been there for TV, Phone
But for monitor (24'-34') ... one short lived Dell and one really small and indecently priced Asus. :)
 

XoR_

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To my eyes VA have subjectively much worse blacks than IPS panels and this with all the IPS glow accounted.
ilmtkvb7ecfrvibs1o.jpg

This the kind of sh**t that you get with VA panels. This is overexposed photo so it exaggerates the issue but this is exactly what this whole issue is about. You get the same tone being rendered with completely different brightness level depending where your head is and both eyes see different colors because they are in different places.

Then for VA there is slow pixel transition times, especially from black to dark grey making smeary appearance with dark streaks. VA panels also often have worse pixel acceleration as temporal banding artifacts making objects that move across the screen appear to have banding. Especially irritating on skin tones.

For me good ambient light is enough to eliminate IPS panel appear washed out at night. Also even hardest overdrive levels on IPS panels tend to look ok-ish in comparison and on IPS generally when pixel response is slow it is at least symmetrical and this is much less irritating.
 

bananadude

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To my eyes VA have subjectively much worse blacks than IPS panels and this with all the IPS glow accounted.

This the kind of sh**t that you get with VA panels. This is overexposed photo so it exaggerates the issue but this is exactly what this whole issue is about. You get the same tone being rendered with completely different brightness level depending where your head is and both eyes see different colors because they are in different places.

Then for VA there is slow pixel transition times, especially from black to dark grey making smeary appearance with dark streaks. VA panels also often have worse pixel acceleration as temporal banding artifacts making objects that move across the screen appear to have banding. Especially irritating on skin tones.

For me good ambient light is enough to eliminate IPS panel appear washed out at night. Also even hardest overdrive levels on IPS panels tend to look ok-ish in comparison and on IPS generally when pixel response is slow it is at least symmetrical and this is much less irritating.

I was very surprised how bad VA was. I'd been on IPS for years until my monitor went belly up not too long ago... thought I'd give VA a go as I was fed up with IPS glow and I heard so many people talking up VA. I was quite shocked at what I found across every VA monitor I tried... and I tried a lot!! So yeah, it sucks.

As you say, ambient lighting does rid IPS of many of its issues, if you have a good panel (some are beyond help though). This isn't the case with VA... it always looks the same, no matter the lighting conditions.
 

jbltecnicspro

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I was very surprised how bad VA was. I'd been on IPS for years until my monitor went belly up not too long ago... thought I'd give VA a go as I was fed up with IPS glow and I heard so many people talking up VA. I was quite shocked at what I found across every VA monitor I tried... and I tried a lot!! So yeah, it sucks.

As you say, ambient lighting does rid IPS of many of its issues, if you have a good panel (some are beyond help though). This isn't the case with VA... it always looks the same, no matter the lighting conditions.
I beg to differ somewhat. I have a Samsung CFG73-24 and an AOC-CQ27G1 and while they're not TN monitors, they definitely don't suck. AOC has some less expensive and lower-resolution monitors that do better than 3000:1 contrast. Their 32-inch (1080p though - ugh) monitor even comes close to 6000:1, which is what we see in TV's.

But yeah, my two monitors offer enough motion clarity to be worth it over those monitors without it, and the contrast is decent enough too. But in reality, OLED is where it's really gonna be at. CRT is still the champ when it comes to high-contrast, smooth gaming. No other monitor (other than OLED with rolling scan) will touch it... Still... After all these years.
 

MaZa

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To my eyes VA have subjectively much worse blacks than IPS panels and this with all the IPS glow accounted.
View attachment 217625
This the kind of sh**t that you get with VA panels. This is overexposed photo so it exaggerates the issue but this is exactly what this whole issue is about. You get the same tone being rendered with completely different brightness level depending where your head is and both eyes see different colors because they are in different places.

Then for VA there is slow pixel transition times, especially from black to dark grey making smeary appearance with dark streaks. VA panels also often have worse pixel acceleration as temporal banding artifacts making objects that move across the screen appear to have banding. Especially irritating on skin tones.

For me good ambient light is enough to eliminate IPS panel appear washed out at night. Also even hardest overdrive levels on IPS panels tend to look ok-ish in comparison and on IPS generally when pixel response is slow it is at least symmetrical and this is much less irritating.
Even this horizontal gamma shift is panel quality dependant. This shift is real bad on my FG2421 but I see pretty much none of it on my TV even though it is much bigger and I sit very close to it in relation to its size
 

Vega

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What is funny is that all high end LCD TV's are VA and have quite great image quality, especially when combined with high zone FALD. It's computer monitor VA's that are terrible. Some of them barely even break 2000:1 contrast ratio.
 

|cpm

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mmm not worth it buing a VA then.. then I will have to wait an other 5 to 10 years or so for 21:9 35 inches OLED or mincro led to come to the market
 

MaZa

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mmm not worth it buing a VA then.. then I will have to wait an other 5 to 10 years or so for 21:9 35 inches OLED or mincro led to come to the market
Bah. Buy the 48CX when it arrives and make a custom 21:9 resolution and ignore the black bars on top and bottom.
 

N4CR

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What is funny is that all high end LCD TV's are VA and have quite great image quality, especially when combined with high zone FALD. It's computer monitor VA's that are terrible. Some of them barely even break 2000:1 contrast ratio.
Very good point most TVs are but they seem to do it much better.
It's strange, perhaps due to smaller market size, the smaller panels just don't get as much juicy development.

mmm not worth it buing a VA then.. then I will have to wait an other 5 to 10 years or so for 21:9 35 inches OLED or mincro led to come to the market
Just run an ultrawide profile on a CX48... You get no bars as the screen is physically off on those pixels.
 

bananadude

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Just run an ultrawide profile on a CX48... You get no bars as the screen is physically off on those pixels.
I do wonder what the might do for burn-in on that area of the screen which is active all the time, vs the area turned off.
 

Pastuch

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If you want blacks buy an OLED. It's the most spectacular display I've ever owned and if I could replace every LCD I have I would. I have no burn-in (Everyone asks me, it's sort of ridiculous) and my C7 is now three years old.

I ran a 55 C7 as my primary computer monitor for almost 2 years (secondary QNIX 2710 on an arm mount). Playing Shadow of War in HDR 4k on the C7 is the most beautiful gaming I've ever played. The biggest issue with sitting close is the raw brightness of it. The new C10 (CX) 48 will help and I'm planning on buying one because VRR and 120hz BFI with a 5ms input lag and OLED is a dream. I've been using a 144hz gaming monitor for competitive FPS the past 6 months and it's a piece of shit compared to Oled except for input lag and motion clarity. The CX resolves that issue. I need 120hz BFI. I love BFI.

Here's the plan:

FPS gaming: 1440p @ 120hz with BFI enabled (And VRR enabled if LG can manage it but that's very unlikely).

Other games: 4k @ 120hz with VRR enabled.

Hardware: I plan on also getting Zen 3, HDMI 2.1 videocard and 48inch LG Oled before the end 2020.
 

Pastuch

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I do wonder what the might do for burn-in on that area of the screen which is active all the time, vs the area turned off.
Here's the thing, if you're sitting less than 4 feet from a 48 inch or 55 inch OLED I guarantee you'll want the brightness around 150-200 candela to avoid blinding yourself. I ran my C7 OLED light setting at around 40 to 45 for the two years I used it as a computer monitor because when I ran it at 100 it's like sitting in the sun. Me and all the other owners on AVSforum have talked a lot about the OLED brightness level, the general consensus is that 40 to 50 is an extremely safe setting to avoid burn in. I have no burn-in and I'm through worrying about it. Even 40 to 45 OLED brightness was too bright for web-browsing a lot of the time. If the CX can do 4k 120hz with BFI at the claimed 5ms input lag it will be the best display ever made.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I ran 100 OLED light when playing most games. In HDR mode, I ALWAYS ran 100 OLED light. I lowered the brightness because the screen is so bloody massive that web pages with white backgrounds turn the display into a light cannon.
 
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Armenius

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Echoing others in saying OLED is the only way to go. Pure blacks (no marketing tricks), ∞:1 contrast ratio, instant response time, best color coverage in wide gamut spaces, self-emitting pixels for pure HDR experience... The list of positives is practically endless!
 

N4CR

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EDIT: Just to clarify, I ran 100 OLED light when playing most games. In HDR mode, I ALWAYS ran 100 OLED light. I lowered the brightness because the screen is so bloody massive that web pages with white backgrounds turn the display into a light cannon.
Is it easy to switch?
I heard it changes brightness between modes on the CX though.
 

Snowdog

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To my eyes VA have subjectively much worse blacks than IPS panels and this with all the IPS glow accounted.
View attachment 217625
This the kind of sh**t that you get with VA panels. This is overexposed photo so it exaggerates the issue but this is exactly what this whole issue is about. You get the same tone being rendered with completely different brightness level depending where your head is and both eyes see different colors because they are in different places.

Then for VA there is slow pixel transition times, especially from black to dark grey making smeary appearance with dark streaks. VA panels also often have worse pixel acceleration as temporal banding artifacts making objects that move across the screen appear to have banding. Especially irritating on skin tones.

For me good ambient light is enough to eliminate IPS panel appear washed out at night. Also even hardest overdrive levels on IPS panels tend to look ok-ish in comparison and on IPS generally when pixel response is slow it is at least symmetrical and this is much less irritating.
Yeah, I discovered this on my first LCD in 2006. I hate VA computer screens. That slightly different image to each eye because they each have different gamma shift, gives me a headache. Not to mention it's disctracting having detail hide/reveal itself as you move your head.

VA is OK on TV because I don't sit close enough to suffer from most of the gamma shift issues.

The Best LCD monitor is an IPS panel, with glow reduction filter. It does a fantastic job on my NEC. Most stable image on an LCD.
 

|cpm

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btw i noticed that on both my plasma tv and oled laptop screen , there is in front of the screen some kind of polarization filter (if you direct some light at the screen you'll see a prism color separation.
I read that this increased the contrast .. was this ever used on lcd?
 

Tup3x

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I think VA is shit for TVs unless you are single and always watch your stuff in same position. Gamma shift ruins it. High end IPS TVs can have rathe sweet contrast ratio too. Combine that with Philips ambilight system and blacks look really nice even when other lights are off.
 

kasakka

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I think VA is shit for TVs unless you are single and always watch your stuff in same position. Gamma shift ruins it.
I own both an OLED and a Samsung VA TV and when sitting on the sofa a few meters away they perform pretty much the same in this regard and moving a bit to either side is not going to change the situation. I just don't ever imagine setting a TV up so that it would have to be watched from any extreme angle by anyone. The VA Samsung superultrawide and 65" TV I have are a far cry from the VA monitor I once had which had an infuriating level of black crush and viewing angle issues.

OLED is of course a lot better in other aspects.
 

sethk

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Modern VA tvs are much, much better than VA monitors at black crush and gamma shift, starting at just a few feet away. Not sure why, but it's measurable.
 

bananadude

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Modern VA tvs are much, much better than VA monitors at black crush and gamma shift, starting at just a few feet away. Not sure why, but it's measurable.

When you see VA monitors next to VA TV's, it would be quite easy to think they're entirely different technologies. The differences really are night and day.
 

Snowdog

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Modern VA tvs are much, much better than VA monitors at black crush and gamma shift, starting at just a few feet away. Not sure why, but it's measurable.
I think it just seems that way since you typically don't use TVs from close up.

But, there are some new high end Samsung VA TV's with a special optical layer that improves viewing angle (and black crush/gamma shift), but the majority of VA TVs don't have this.
The Samsung Q90R is one of these sets. It uses an optical layer and some kind of active patterning on the sub pixels.


But this also blurs the pixels, and introduces a crosshatch patern that might be noticed if sitting close, which probably isn't as applicable to monitors.
 

sethk

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No, it's not just the viewing distance, it measures better from any distance. Looking into it, monitors are being made on old fabs with other VA technologies. Remember PVA, SPVA, etc.? Notice how that's gone now that VA is a not the premium tech it once was in the monitor space? The actual VA tech and panel process is different, it's not just the viewing distance. It's also why sub-50" TVs are so much worse, they tend to use older fabs and older VA tech (not just inferior backlighting techniques, which is also a problem).
 

bananadude

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I think it just seems that way since you typically don't use TVs from close up.

But, there are some new high end Samsung VA TV's with a special optical layer that improves viewing angle (and black crush/gamma shift), but the majority of VA TVs don't have this.
The Samsung Q90R is one of these sets. It uses an optical layer and some kind of active patterning on the sub pixels..

It really isn't that. The quality of some VA panels is shocking and evident from any and all distances. They just aren't in the same league as TV's, not even close. Viewing distance plays a small role sure, but that isn't what's going on here. As sethk says, it might be the fab process, I don't know, but we are absolutely not dealing with the same technology across all VA size products.
 
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Snowdog

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No, it's not just the viewing distance, it measures better from any distance. Looking into it, monitors are being made on old fabs with other VA technologies. Remember PVA, SPVA, etc.? Notice how that's gone now that VA is a not the premium tech it once was in the monitor space? The actual VA tech and panel process is different, it's not just the viewing distance. It's also why sub-50" TVs are so much worse, they tend to use older fabs and older VA tech (not just inferior backlighting techniques, which is also a problem).
You can see the viewing angles on dozens of TV's on the RTings page (follow links in video above). Aside from the few TVs with this new optical layer, VA TV viewing angles still suck.
 
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MaZa

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You can see the viewing angles on dozens of TV's on the RTings page (follow links in video above). Aside from the few TVs with this new optical layer, VA TV viewing angles still suck.
They do, but the horizontal sweetspot is much larger on TV's than monitors. Again, the horizontal gamma shift is painfully noticeable in my FG2421 from couple of feet away, where it is bot visible on my 49" Samsung KS7500 from a 1 meter away.
 

Snowdog

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They do, but the horizontal sweetspot is much larger on TV's than monitors. Again, the horizontal gamma shift is painfully noticeable in my FG2421 from couple of feet away, where it is bot visible on my 49" Samsung KS7500 from a 1 meter away.
I see ZERO evidence of that difference. RTings tests monitors and TVs.

VA Monitor:
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/32ud59-b
For the VA Monitor, it's Horizontal viewing angles scores 5.5/10

vs

VA TV:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ru7100
For the VA TV, it scores 5.4/10.

They have videos of each and they are practically indistinguishable. Both VA Monitors and TVs suck about equally.



UNLESS, you have a High-End VA TV, like the Q90R, that I mentioned previously, that has a new optical layer and sub-pixel mitigations:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/q90-q90r-qled

Viewing angle Score: 6.9

The viewing angle is decent. As you move off center, the image remains accurate for wider angles. The contrast stays relatively constant and this prevents the image from looking washed out.
This behavior is usually found on IPS panel TVs. The Q90R uses a VA panel, but it also has an optical layer that Samsung calls 'Ultra Viewing Angle.' This optical layer greatly improves the viewing angles at the expense of lower native contrast ratio, which in the case of the Q90R is not diminished as much as on the Q900R. The 'Ultra Viewing Angle' technology appears to work similarly to the 'X-Wide Angle' technology found on the Sony Z9F.
The evidence indicates, that without the special mitigations on some higher end VA sets, VA TV have viewing angles just as bad as VA monitors.

I don't have any issue with my VA TV because I sit FAR away from it. But I can't tolerate using a VA Monitor with similar viewing angle because sitting close to it, really exacerbates the issues.
 

MaZa

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And I find Rtings results perplexing because I do not see any major shift in any real life content with mine when I sit at dead center about a meter away. There IS mild curve in the TV but I doubt it would provide that much help. IF I mlve side ways then yes, I see the picture shift, but not when I just move my eyes which is not something I can say about my FG2421.
 

kasakka

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And I find Rtings results perplexing because I do not see any major shift in any real life content with mine when I sit at dead center about a meter away. There IS mild curve in the TV but I doubt it would provide that much help. IF I mlve side ways then yes, I see the picture shift, but not when I just move my eyes which is not something I can say about my FG2421.
I have quite a few monitors here:

  • ASUS PG278Q, 27" 1440p 8-bit TN
  • Samsung CRG9, 49" 5120x1440 8-bit+FRC curved VA
  • Samsung KS7005 (Nordic KS8000), 65" 4K 10-bit VA
  • LG C9, 65" 4K OLED
With the VA models I really don't have any issues with their viewing angles and their black levels are good for SDR content. The CRG9 I watch from close up and had to pull up single color test pictures to see issues with viewing angles, in normal use it is not going to be noticeable at all. The KS7005 was used from the sofa until the LG C9 nudged it to the bedroom where it is viewed from further away on the bed. If 2 or more people are looking at the TV from a few meters away they will all have a fine viewing experience. You need to go to more extreme angles for viewing angles to become a problem on modern VA panels.

Sure, I would not buy a VA TV either at current LG C9 pricing but that does not make them horrible all of a sudden. The KS7005 was the best price/quality thing in 2016 when I bought it as OLEDs were more than double the cost and I think FALD wasn't even a thing. TVs have come really far in just a few years with far more tech advancement than we have had in desktop displays.
 

Snowdog

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And I find Rtings results perplexing because I do not see any major shift in any real life content with mine when I sit at dead center about a meter away. There IS mild curve in the TV but I doubt it would provide that much help. IF I mlve side ways then yes, I see the picture shift, but not when I just move my eyes which is not something I can say about my FG2421.
I would imagine you are siting significantly closer to your monitor than your TV, and the curve may help a slight bit.
 

Armenius

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And I find Rtings results perplexing because I do not see any major shift in any real life content with mine when I sit at dead center about a meter away. There IS mild curve in the TV but I doubt it would provide that much help. IF I mlve side ways then yes, I see the picture shift, but not when I just move my eyes which is not something I can say about my FG2421.
I find Rtings confusing on their ratings, as well. They're generally really perplexing in monitor reviews. They can take two displays with similar local dimming systems and panels and rate one a 2.0 and the other a 7.5.
 
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