An alarming trend in new GPU releases

heatlesssun said:
Everyone that builds high-end gaming rigs is completely aware of consoles. The reason why we buy this kind of hardware is that we are seeking a gaming experience beyond the crap capabilities of consoles. I doubt that even next gen consoles will be very strong against mid-range PCs at the time, at least for very long.

Console gaming is for people who don't want to spend a lot of money on gaming hardware and there's nothing wrong with the idea, but the gaming experience on consoles sucks.
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Bingo. I own a 360, but it's in the lounge-room and used only when friends / family who are used to and enjoy that experience come around and are looking for something quick and easy to keep themselves entertained. I however more enjoy a gaming experience with more than 30fps, with more controller precision than an analog joystick and the possibilities that creates, with a resolution higher than 1080p (or 720p for a lot of console titles), with a FOV higher than 60, etc, etc. :p
 
I would bet good money the douchbags complaining about 'high gpu prices' also own some ubber overpriced Apple product(s).


I mean seriously, what the hell do these people want AMD/Nvidia to do? Why not demand the price be 350 bucks? Why no 250? Hell....free works too, right?

This kind of bullshit is why this country sucks so much today. Maybe we should vote on the price...yeah? That would work right? That is how supply and demand work, right? The wealthiest nation on Earth got that way due to price controls, right?

(fucking retarded threads demanding artificial price controls.)
 
Well in reality prices for most products are controlled by what the market will bear and it's been bearing $500 for top end consumer GPUs for well over a decade and the fact that the 680s sold out in hours I think shows that the market easily bears the $500 for the 680.
 
Nobody is demanding crap, amd/nvidia can price however they want, but consumers have power over their wallets. I just cancelled my 7850 since it was temporarily out of stock and price performance ratio sucks balls.

The only decent deal right now is the gtx 680, but too bad priced to high for most folks. We really need some midrange competition.
 
OP I'm not sure of your point that 680 is spiritual successor to 560 but that's a fact. So what? The 8970 will be spiritual successor to 7870. The 560/7870 better gaming cards than fermi and Tahiti respectively, best take what works and make them even better.
 
csgamer said:
Nobody is demanding crap, amd/nvidia can price however they want, but consumers have power over their wallets. I just cancelled my 7850 since it was temporarily out of stock and price performance ratio sucks balls.

The only decent deal right now is the gtx 680, but too bad priced to high for most folks. We really need some midrange competition.
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Then what is the point in this thread? Why are there are a bunch of threads bitching about prices if nobody wants anything to change?
 
csgamer said:
Nobody is demanding crap, amd/nvidia can price however they want, but consumers have power over their wallets. I just cancelled my 7850 since it was temporarily out of stock and price performance ratio sucks balls.

The only decent deal right now is the gtx 680, but too bad priced to high for most folks. We really need some midrange competition.
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Yup. The big problem is if you spent $250 a year ago you are faster than what $259 can buy you today. That's bs right there. Most ppl dont care about high end pricing because you actually got some improvement there for same price.

And no never say those $500 cards are good deals. They are the worst price/performace of all and should only be bought if you need it or your ego needs it.
 
ZoNe said:
Yup. The big problem is if you spent $250 a year ago you are faster than what $259 can buy you today. That's bs right there. Most ppl dont care about high end pricing because you actually got some improvement there for same price.

And no never say those $500 cards are good deals. They are the worst price/performace of all and should only be bought if you need it or your ego needs it.
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Right on!
 
its all about 28nm supply. Everything else in this thread is just red herring.
680s are all sold out, which means that if nvidia had made it any cheaper, they would just be throwing money away.
If TSMC could supply infinite chips, nvidia would surely make more money by calling the card 660 gtx and selling it for $299, and so thats what they would do.
 
astroboy said:
If TSMC could supply infinite chips, nvidia would surely make more money by calling the card 660 gtx and selling it for $299, and so thats what they would do.
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I doubt. To me it seems its all calculated production and sales. All to help retailers make maximum profits. There is still a ton of old NVIDIA cards that retailers need to make a buck on and if there was a huge number of 28nm cards at low prices nobody would buy the old cards.

IMO the high prices on the the GTX680 and AMD HD7970 are there to protect the entire line up of video cards.
 
SonDa5 said:
I doubt. To me it seems its all calculated production and sales. All to help retailers make maximum profits. There is still a ton of old NVIDIA cards that retailers need to make a buck on and if there was a huge number of 28nm cards at low prices nobody would buy the old cards.

IMO the high prices on the the GTX680 and AMD HD7970 are there to protect the entire line up of video cards.
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That's a good point and more believable than supply of 28nm.

It's the only way to explain this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...MATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=7870+radeon

all in stock and all overpriced.

They want to sell their last year warez.

I disagree w/ you about 680. It's probably priced below what market will bear thus underpriced as business goes. It's overpriced for me personally due to it's poor price/performance, but not in the marketplace. It's sold out everywhere. Like the fist thing I learned about business working for my dad is when you got more business than you can handle (out of stock) raise prices.
 
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SonDa5 said:
I doubt. To me it seems its all calculated production and sales. All to help retailers make maximum profits. There is still a ton of old NVIDIA cards that retailers need to make a buck on and if there was a huge number of 28nm cards at low prices nobody would buy the old cards.

IMO the high prices on the the GTX680 and AMD HD7970 are there to protect the entire line up of video cards.
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Nope, its the other way around.
They would stop making 40nm chips and let supply run dry if they knew there are enough 28nm parts coming to replace it.
 
I think the truly alarming trend is that people will buy the newly released tech, in massive numbers, even though we know that after companies have had a couple months to tweak it they'll be releasing a much more impressive set, for a much more reasonable price. Apple especially has it made. Not only can they reap the early adopters, but then they probably sell the actual working "final product" to those same people 6 months later.

And realistically there haven't really been any new games that can crush the cards most of us have already, which makes it even weirder that people would rush out to buy this one before we can see the rest of the refresh come into view. If you had a 550TI I can see it, but most of those folk don't buy $500 cards to begin with.
 
Draxanoth said:
I think the truly alarming trend is that people will buy the newly released tech, in massive numbers, even though we know that after companies have had a couple months to tweak it they'll be releasing a much more impressive set, for a much more reasonable price.
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Uh, after a couple months? No, that really doesn't happen. You'll see a number of non-reference designs that are usually more expensive but the base prices tend to remain stable for much longer than a couple of months. And looking at the 680, that price will remain pretty solid until another high-end single GPU product comes out, and that may every well not even be this year.
 
heatlesssun said:
Uh, after a couple months? No, that really doesn't happen. You'll see a number of non-reference designs that are usually more expensive but the base prices tend to remain stable for much longer than a couple of months. And looking at the 680, that price will remain pretty solid until another high-end single GPU product comes out, and that may every well not even be this year.
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You took the word couple too literally, the cycle remains the same as it always has been for the most part, and likely will continue until one of the 2 big name manufacturers dies.

The 400 series was March to July before the line expanded, the 500 series was November to May I think, the 200 series was January to June.

My thoughts remain the same. If you already have a card that can thrash the games we have there isn't going to be any new stuff to tax your system at least until the sept-nov time window, at which point there will likely be a whole slug of cards to choose with better performance per dollar.
 
Draxanoth said:
My thoughts remain the same. If you already have a card that can thrash the games we have there isn't going to be any new stuff to tax your system at least until the sept-nov time window, at which point there will likely be a whole slug of cards to choose with better performance per dollar.
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But high end cards have never been about performance per dollar, they are always about top performance and under the right circumstances with the right games it's very easy to push a single or even two 680s or 7970s.
 
Draxanoth said:
You took the word couple too literally, the cycle remains the same as it always has been for the most part, and likely will continue until one of the 2 big name manufacturers dies.

The 400 series was March to July before the line expanded, the 500 series was November to May I think, the 200 series was January to June.

My thoughts remain the same. If you already have a card that can thrash the games we have there isn't going to be any new stuff to tax your system at least until the sept-nov time window, at which point there will likely be a whole slug of cards to choose with better performance per dollar.
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Yeah but everyone has something they waste cash on and dont look straight up performance/dollar. I like guns. Dropped $4000 before on a .45 which shoots just as good as a $400 one. Have bought impractical expensive machine guns too. I also paint cars for a living. Some of my guns there cost 5x what is only ~20% worse.
 
It's like from a Price to Performance perspective Nvidia WENT ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in that last 2 years.

The 580GTX released on November 9 2010, The 680GTX saw a March 22 2012 launch. It's been 2 years people.

Honest Question.

Is the Price to Performance of a GTX 580 (390.00 or less) a better deal than the 680GTX (500.00+)?

Well 500.00 dollars easily splits into 20 percents. Every 20 percent of performance for every 100.00 dollars USD for the 680GTX.

IS THE GTX 580 20 % less performance or greater than the 680GTX? We know the cost from a 580 GTX @ 390.00 is a little over 20%+ savings compared to the 680GTX @ 500.00+ USD.

Well Tech Power Up says you get only a 19% increase in Performance with the 680GTX @ 1900x1200 over a 580GTX. :confused: SO we SHOULD pay MORE for less in Price to Performance 2 years later WTF!? :confused: I'm completely underwhelmed. ANd the mid range segment is even more jacked up. Uhhhhhh NO GPU UPGRADE for me THANK YOU Nvidia! :D

perfrel_1920.gif
 
If one is looking for the best performance per dollar there's no reason to by a $500 GPU for single screen 1920x1200 2D gaming.
 
teletran8 said:
It's like from a Price to Performance perspective Nvidia WENT ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in that last 2 years.

The 580GTX released on November 9 2010, The 680GTX saw a March 22 2012 launch. It's been 2 years people.

Honest Question.

Is the Price to Performance of a GTX 580 (390.00 or less) a better deal than the 680GTX (500.00+)?
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Are you honestly this stupid? First of all Nov-2010 to March-2012 is 1 year 5 months. Not even a year and a half much less two years. Second of all the GTX580 is $390 NOW, when it was released it $500+. Old tech's prices always start to drop right before something new comes out. Soon as new tech shows up all the old stuff's value quickly drops. They need to get rid of any old inventory before it becomes worthless. If GTX580 is $499 and GTX680 is $499 and are both sitting on shelf next to eachother, why the fuck would anyone buy a GTX580 at that point?

Anyways, this is really simple, both the 580 and 680 were released at 499$ msrp, the 680, using your numbers, is 20% faster, therefore perf/$ went up 20% between releases.

Jesus.
 
The 680 launched at the same price as the GTX 580, is faster, cooler, more efficient and supports nvsurround off of one card. Honestly the $500 and up for a new high end card isn't breaking news...
 
bexamous said:
Are you honestly this stupid? First of all Nov-2010 to March-2012 is 1 year 5 months. Not even a year and a half much less two years. Second of all the GTX580 is $390 NOW, when it was released it $500+. Old tech's prices always start to drop right before something new comes out. Soon as new tech shows up all the old stuff's value quickly drops. They need to get rid of any old inventory before it becomes worthless. If GTX580 is $499 and GTX680 is $499 and are both sitting on shelf next to eachother, why the fuck would anyone buy a GTX580 at that point?

Anyways, this is really simple, both the 580 and 680 were released at 499$ msrp, the 680, using your numbers, is 20% faster, therefore perf/$ went up 20% between releases.

Jesus.
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:eek: Still sux, and you cannot make it un-suck by typing Jesus at the end of your convoluted rant.

I can only wait with unbridled enthusiasm for the 660 Ti performance increase ;) j/k because... There will be NONE!

Honestly I think Nvidia should just leave their 6 series market to the 680GTX alone, they won by a hair. Wait 6 months and release the 7 series WE all WANT. 6 series is unimpressive waste of tech, top to bottom imho. Because anyone can buy a 580GTX overclock it and be within 5 percent of a stock 680GTX...joke.
 
You know what's alarming? The fact that nVidia didn't include three miniDP or three DVI ports on their card. No, you've got to mix and match. That's alarming.
 
Xeth said:
Part of it is because 28nm is still a very expensive process compared to 40nm. Costs will come down over the year. However expect the long term trend to be higher priced cards because apparently the next shrink, 20nm doesn't offer more transistors per dollar than 28nm: http://www.extremetech.com/computin...y-with-tsmc-claims-22nm-essentially-worthless
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Interesting article. I actually consider it good news. I might not need to upgrade my current gpu for a couple of years. I'd be happy with that. Maybe a stall in gpu horsepower will shift the focus from adding more graphical bling to other things that improve gameplay.
 
teletran8 said:
It's like from a Price to Performance perspective Nvidia WENT ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in that last 2 years.

The 580GTX released on November 9 2010, The 680GTX saw a March 22 2012 launch. It's been 2 years people.

Honest Question.

Is the Price to Performance of a GTX 580 (390.00 or less) a better deal than the 680GTX (500.00+)?

Well 500.00 dollars easily splits into 20 percents. Every 20 percent of performance for every 100.00 dollars USD for the 680GTX.

IS THE GTX 580 20 % less performance or greater than the 680GTX? We know the cost from a 580 GTX @ 390.00 is a little over 20%+ savings compared to the 680GTX @ 500.00+ USD.

Well Tech Power Up says you get only a 19% increase in Performance with the 680GTX @ 1900x1200 over a 580GTX. :confused: SO we SHOULD pay MORE for less in Price to Performance 2 years later WTF!? :confused: I'm completely underwhelmed. ANd the mid range segment is even more jacked up. Uhhhhhh NO GPU UPGRADE for me THANK YOU Nvidia! :D
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AMD and nV are always changing the price/performance ratio: the performance gets higher and the price stays the same. the new $500 gpu's probably perform 2x as well as the $500 gpus from a couple generations ago in the benchmarks that were used then. But guess what? we're using new benchmarks now and these cards are still the best things out there overall. I also fail to see how the value argument holds any water, as has been stated before: halo GPU's have NEVER offered the best value. The bottom line is that the 680 at $500 is better than the 580 at $500, which is where it was positioned for its entire retail life.

I also completely fail to see how the fact that the 680 is based more on the GF114 arch than the GF110 has anything to do with where it should or should not be positioned. Thats like saying that because SB-E was based on the SB architecture and not the Westmere architecture, its not the "real" successor to the high end
 
teletran8 said:
:eek: Still sux, and you cannot make it un-suck by typing Jesus at the end of your convoluted rant.

I can only wait with unbridled enthusiasm for the 660 Ti performance increase ;) j/k because... There will be NONE!

Honestly I think Nvidia should just leave their 6 series market to the 680GTX alone, they won by a hair. Wait 6 months and release the 7 series WE all WANT. 6 series is unimpressive waste of tech, top to bottom imho. Because anyone can buy a 580GTX overclock it and be within 5 percent of a stock 680GTX...joke.
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I'm just sick of people's logic lately. The GTX680 is ~20% better perf/$ than the GTX580, that's the way it is. If you dislike that, fine. Say "20% increase is lame, I expected more." That's great, everyone can have their opinion. But taking current GTX580's price and comparing it with GTX680 and trying to claim barely any perf/$ increase is just retarded. Its wrong and unneeded. If you don't like 20% gain then say so, don't try to pretend its something less than 20%.

The other thing that is annoying as shit is people who won't just accept GTX680 is faster than a 7970, stock. Eg anyone who uses the word stock in quotes, trying to imply GPUBoost is cheating, or claims a GTX680 should be compared to oced 7970s, or any other stupid fucking logic people use. Just say "The GTX680 is faster stock, but with typical overclocks the 7970 is equal if not faster." Totally valid. No need to bust out retard logic to try to prove something true that isn't, the fact is both stock the GTX680 is faster.

I totally believe the GTX680 started off as a replacement for the GTX560, or at least not a GTX680. Maybe it was going to be a GTX670Ti. Either way it doesn't mean very much. Who knows exactly what happened. Maybe they planned to have a GF104@700mhz be the GTX660/670 but it was faster than expected. Maybe they then decided to go for 1000mhz clock to catch up to 7970 which cut into yields, as not all would do 1000mhz, causing price to go up. Maybe yields on 28nm in general suck, and lack of wafers keeps supply tight, both would drive price up. Maybe after GF100 came out and everyone complained about heat/power usage they actually listened and put that as a higher priority than all out performance?-- They did almost double perf/watt which is pretty ridiculous. Maybe GK110 is a big turd and they have to delay it for some reason and all they got is a GK104. Maybe they don't want to sell GK110 to gamers, maybe they want to put them all in clusters where they get to charge $2000/GPU vs $500/gpu to gamers. Most likely tho its not just one reason but a bunch of reasons. At same time time though, does it really matter? All that matters in the end is the final product. GTX680 beats out 7970 by a bit, sock, and beats out GTX580 by a pretty reasonable amount and does it using alot less power. If that sucks, alright, but we don't need to use retard logic to try to make things sound worse than they are.
 
Yeah no kidding. If you want to bitch about something teletran8 look no further than 7800 series.

This is first generation I ever heard of getting NO performance increase for same price as last years parts like 6950 vs 7850.

At least nV gave you 20% for same price as GTX 580 was. The way it's supposed to work.
 
The 580 launched at the same price as the 480, was 10-15% better and ran cooler, nobody complained.

The 680 launched at the same price as the 580, was 15-20% better and ran cooler, HOLY SHIT PRICE PERFORMANCE WENT TO SHIT!!111!!!


WTF is wrong with you people?!
 
chx said:
I have a 3840x2400 monitor, I haven't played games in ages, I wonder what video card will drive Diablo 3 in high at full res :D
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That wouldn't happen to be an IBM T221 would it? :D
 
ZoNe said:
Yeah no kidding. If you want to bitch about something teletran8 look no further than 7800 series.

This is first generation I ever heard of getting NO performance increase for same price as last years parts like 6950 vs 7850.

At least nV gave you 20% for same price as GTX 580 was. The way it's supposed to work.
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I agree, after basically redefining the price/perf paradigm with the 4870, AMD has really made some strange decisions in the last couple rounds, and its pretty much all related to their branding. The 6870 wasn't faster than the 5870, in their infinite wisdom they bumped it to the 6970 and they've created a bunch of strange SKU's in the middle that have very little value. i guess the thought with the 7850 is that its delivering the power of the 6950.. aka "our old halo card is the new mainstream".. Of course, anyone with half a brain can see that the price is the same so its a complete farce.

So yea, if anyone is screwing up their Price/Perf positioning, its AMD, not nVidia with this release
 
Xeth said:
The 580 launched at the same price as the 480, was 10-15% better and ran cooler, nobody complained.

The 680 launched at the same price as the 580, was 15-20% better and ran cooler, HOLY SHIT PRICE PERFORMANCE WENT TO SHIT!!111!!!


WTF is wrong with you people?!
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Not really the same case considering the 580 was clearly a revision of the 480 (both are Fermi GPUs), whereas the 680 is an all new generation on a new architecture.

I agree with others that AMD botched this gen harder than Nvidia. AMD set up the field for all this and Nvidia is just capitalizing on the situation. Doesn't mean people who want to buy new cards should be happy about it though.
 
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teletran8 said:
It's like from a Price to Performance perspective Nvidia WENT ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in that last 2 years.

The 580GTX released on November 9 2010, The 680GTX saw a March 22 2012 launch. It's been 2 years people.

Honest Question.

Is the Price to Performance of a GTX 580 (390.00 or less) a better deal than the 680GTX (500.00+)?

Well 500.00 dollars easily splits into 20 percents. Every 20 percent of performance for every 100.00 dollars USD for the 680GTX.

IS THE GTX 580 20 % less performance or greater than the 680GTX? We know the cost from a 580 GTX @ 390.00 is a little over 20%+ savings compared to the 680GTX @ 500.00+ USD.

Well Tech Power Up says you get only a 19% increase in Performance with the 680GTX @ 1900x1200 over a 580GTX. :confused: SO we SHOULD pay MORE for less in Price to Performance 2 years later WTF!? :confused: I'm completely underwhelmed. ANd the mid range segment is even more jacked up. Uhhhhhh NO GPU UPGRADE for me THANK YOU Nvidia! :D
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Wow, I didn't know members of the US government financial committee posted here :rolleyes:

Activate: AMD said:
The bottom line is that the 680 at $500 is better than the 580 at $500, which is where it was positioned for its entire retail life.
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Q bottom line FT

Xeth said:
The 580 launched at the same price as the 480, was 10-15% better and ran cooler, nobody complained.

The 680 launched at the same price as the 580, was 15-20% better and ran cooler, HOLY SHIT PRICE PERFORMANCE WENT TO SHIT!!111!!!


WTF is wrong with you people?!
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Bazinga! Skynet has indeed taken over :eek:

The 680 performance/features are a perfectly reasonable upgrade for those that need/want the hardware over its predecessor 580 (I'm staying out of the whole GF110 vs GK104 crap). Price stayed the same, more goodies received.

Performance Up: Check (for me 22-35% across the board)
More VRAM: Check (for me 25% and it seems to be used more efficiently)
More Features: Check (look them all up ;))
Better P/E use: Check (for those that are into it)
 
Also Nvidia worryes becouse the 28nm production is too expensive.

By a research they are finding out that it's no longer a way to go to reduce the size of transistors. They have to find other ways to get better cards, for example to work on the architecture.
And this is what Nvidia already started to do.
On the other side amd didn't do it in the same way as they aren't having such big problems with Global foundries as nvidia does with tsmc.

Give a look at the graph
"Pricing: X'over on Transistor Cost" in this article

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...y-with-tsmc-claims-22nm-essentially-worthless

You see smaller transistors are not much more convenient as the 40nm, so if they put more on a card the card will be more expensive.


And if you look at price par performance the 580 is cheaper than the 680.
So you should buy the 680 only if you want to have something new, or if the 580 isn't enough.
 
AMD's had no problem cranking out their 7xxx series GPU's for THREE or FOUR MONTHS! Where is their article crying about 28nm? Oh yeah....

Nvidia's full of it, they want your sympathy so you go and buy a 680GTX thinking its da bombski...yeah right Nvidia whatever. That 7970 6GB Sapphire card owns Nvidia's 680GTX straight out the box and into the future. http://vr-zone.com/articles/sapphir...ter-record-clocks-6gb-gddr5-memory/15418.html
 
Will have to wait for an after-market heavily modded 4GB 680 before we can see what's what in that area.
 
teletran8 said:
AMD's had no problem cranking out their 7xxx series GPU's for THREE or FOUR MONTHS! Where is their article crying about 28nm? Oh yeah....
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Uh, no. AMD paper launched in December and hard launched 2 weeks later for the first few weeks after that 7970s were also in tight supply. So let's see what the situation is in two or three weeks with the 680. Plus it does seem that the 680 is in greater demand, that $50 cheaper price I think considerably increased demand for the 680.

teletran8 said:
Nvidia's full of it, they want your sympathy so you go and buy a 680GTX thinking its da bombski...yeah right Nvidia whatever. That 7970 6GB Sapphire card owns Nvidia's 680GTX straight out the box and into the future. http://vr-zone.com/articles/sapphir...ter-record-clocks-6gb-gddr5-memory/15418.html
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Well every review site gave the 680 top honors, much like the 7970. The 680 being da bomb or no doesn't really concern me. My games are flying across the screens and AMD's 3D support doesn't really exist compared to nVidia. At the end of the day I think the performance between AMD and nVidia isn't that significant. It's features and support that make the difference. If you want mo monitors, AMD is the way to go, for 3D nVidia is the better option. Maybe one has problems with nVidia drivers, maybe AMD drivers don't work well like some.

At any rate, performance with cards like the 680 or 7970 is great regardless of which you go with, it just really isn't an issue with either of these cards.
 
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