American Airlines Replacing Paper Maps with iPads

There's a lot of bullshit on this topic in the news and in this thread.

A Class 1 EFB is a battery powered laptop or tablet type device. It is NOT used for takeoff and landing. The regulation states that they're to be stowed for take-off and landing which, yes, includes the approach run. It is loose equipment and you don't have a tablet on your lap during a landing where it can fall and block rudder pedals. They're effectively just dumb terminals that display PDF's for various bits of information you may need. It doesn't even need great daylight readability because it isn't flight critical information. Typically they contain airline ops manuals, pilot logs, and other sorts of documentation.

Because it is just supplementary equipment/information they really don't have a whole lot of rules surrounding them. If I recall correctly, you're not even allowed to put the aircraft flight manual on it because it might crap out during an emergency situation and you have to have access to the flight manual during an in-flight emergency. They can't be used to create a "paperless" cockpit. EFB's also have to ensure they don't interfere with any onboard systems due to EMI (i.e. turn off the wifi just in case.

A Class 2 EFB, on the other hand, is a mounted piece of equipment that requires FAA certification for the installation but carries many of the same restrictions as a Class 1 device. It is typically connected to aircraft power. Can have a data link to read information from aircraft systems but can't push data back. There has to be a human factors evaluation to ensure it doesn't interfere with normal cockpit operations.

Class 1 and Class 2 EFB's can show "current position" but only when on the ground doing taxi maneuvers. They are not to be used for current position during any airborne operations. They're not qualified to the required accuracy and redundancy to serve that purpose.

It isn't until you get to Class 3 EFB's, which are strictly controlled by aircraft regulatory agencies, that you can get any interaction with the cockpit avionics. An iPad, or any other consumer device, will never be capable of doing that job ... period.

Effectively, your class 1 and class 2 device can crap out and you can still fly the aircraft no problem.

There are a bunch of different Class 1 and Class 2 devices already made by various aircraft avionics manufacturers. Some airlines want to move to commercial devices to save a lot of money on the purchase because the ones manufactured by the avionics companies tend to be made to higher standards with more reliable, but older, hardware.

Would I want an iPad used as a Class 1 EFB? Not really. Then again, I wouldn't want to use most commercial devices. I'd rather have something with good sunlight readability and actual buttons dedicated to the things I want. When you're at 35,000 feet in a cockpit with lots of windows it is sometimes difficult to read commercial displays. I'd also prefer a Class 2 device frankly with power coming from aircraft systems so you don't have to rely on the pilot or maintenance guy to have it fully charged. I also wouldn't want the fuckers playing Angry Birds with an iPad during the flight.
 
Oh, and the iPad isn't "FAA certified" as some have said ... it is certified to be used as a Class 1 EFB. Sounds like nit-picking but it is a very important distinction. Damned near anything can be classified as a Class 1 EFB. Any laptop on the market and probably many smartphones could get this classification if an airline wanted.
 
Don't they have to shut off the ipads during takeoff and landing, along with all other portable electronic devices? Or the planes will crash or explode instantly, right?
 
Don't they have to shut off the ipads during takeoff and landing, along with all other portable electronic devices? Or the planes will crash or explode instantly, right?

Only if they get the 3G version.
 
coming from a 4 year c-130 flight engineer, an ipad/ipod has no use being in my cockpit, when we would fly over the atlantic ocean and let say we had a critical malfunction with our nav system, the nav operator would use a compass and the stars to navigate until i could fix the issue, im sorry but i would rather rely on something that has been used for thousands of years to help find out our heading than a stupid ipad that decided to do a full lockout due to panic and mistyping the password, not to mention the stress that can be caused due to vertigo.
 
coming from a 4 year c-130 flight engineer, an ipad/ipod has no use being in my cockpit, when we would fly over the atlantic ocean and let say we had a critical malfunction with our nav system, the nav operator would use a compass and the stars to navigate until i could fix the issue, im sorry but i would rather rely on something that has been used for thousands of years to help find out our heading than a stupid ipad that decided to do a full lockout due to panic and mistyping the password, not to mention the stress that can be caused due to vertigo.

The iPad isn't flying the plane or navigating.
 
I don't see big deal here, we're not talking about a critical system or instrument here are we? That said I'm not sure if an iPad is the best device for this purpose, I would think that a embedded device specifically designed as a map would be better though I would imagine that these the iPads used in this case wound be locked down.
 
Not sure about commercial flying, but when I was in the 82nd Airborne, we had a jump (usually 2 dog & pony shows a year) to put on a "demonstration" for VIPs and it ended in disaster from a simple mistake.

The jump should have been scratched due to the low ceiling (fog), but they decided that we had to show that we could carry on the mission under any circumstances (cause it'd convince them to give us more funding). Anyways, the idiot Air Force guys on the ground planning the approach, got their calculations 180 degrees off. Sooo...instead of landing on the DZ, we ALL landing in the trees! There were a lot of broken bones and equipment that night. (...not to mention the scariest night of my life when I couldn't see anything and all of a sudden I got a boot in the face.)

That was the only "bad" jump I had...but, (I think) it shows that the littlest error can produce a big consequence in situations where every mistake matters.
 
Not sure about commercial flying, but when I was in the 82nd Airborne, we had a jump (usually 2 dog & pony shows a year) to put on a "demonstration" for VIPs and it ended in disaster from a simple mistake.

The jump should have been scratched due to the low ceiling (fog), but they decided that we had to show that we could carry on the mission under any circumstances (cause it'd convince them to give us more funding). Anyways, the idiot Air Force guys on the ground planning the approach, got their calculations 180 degrees off. Sooo...instead of landing on the DZ, we ALL landing in the trees! There were a lot of broken bones and equipment that night. (...not to mention the scariest night of my life when I couldn't see anything and all of a sudden I got a boot in the face.)

That was the only "bad" jump I had...but, (I think) it shows that the littlest error can produce a big consequence in situations where every mistake matters.

if only you had an iPad.
 
Why use paper when you can use electronics? iPad's never fail and i'm sure it's worth the extra money that AA doesn't have to incorporate them....

can you tell I was being sarcastic?

I'm sure no one will forget to charge the little devices, " low on battery, shutting down." during a critical moment.
 
People not reading the article first and hating on Apple. Nothing new here..move along.
 
People not reading the article first and hating on Apple. Nothing new here..move along.

Ummm we are reading the article, its not that we are hating the ipad or apple.... hell i would be just as mad if they used an android device to do the same thing, they are replacing paper maps of the flight plan with an electronic device, that's not suitable for aviation use, in order for any device to be installed in the cockpit there are a series of tests that happen conducted by the FAA, each and every instrument on that plane has a fallback or secondary system, they must be able to still function with sudden decompression, not sure if you have ever experienced sudden decompression but first your inner ear feels like its going to explode followed by massive amounts of moisture and condensation, do you think and ipad could withstand that, or any consumer made item for that fact, not only that but when sudden decompression happens, imagine trying to calculate on a ipad with a wet screen to get map to update based off the shift in heading, no thankyou would rather use a kneeboard to hold my maps instead of some consumer grade product
 
Alaska Airlines and the military are both using them already.

http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcasche...rpsaviatorsusepopulartabletinAfghanistan.aspx

Here's a good article on ZDnet about Alaska Airlines using the ipad. Eventhough the author doesn't like the idea either, there's a good post from one of the pilots.

As a pilot for Alaska Airlines I can tell you that we are working to get approval to use the iPAD for every phase of flight. Since safety is playing a huge role regarding the use of the iPAD it is going to take a lot of training to get pilots comfortable using the device during critical phases of flight. The FAA allows electronic devices called Electronic Flight Bags (EFB) to be used during all phases of flight. The iPad has not received the appropriate certification of EFB to be used during take off and landing, but it will in the near future.

Regarding a reduction in injuries by reducing weight: Our flight bags are closer to 50 lbs when you add in Approach Plates, Flashlights, Headsets, Extra Batteries etc… Most of the pilot related OJI’s occur while moving the flight back in our “cramped cockpits” We are forced to use back muscles while moving the bag around so yes, 25 lbs is a significant reduction in weight for us.

Fuels savings by reducing weight is significant when you include the two pilot bags (50lbs), Cockpit Manuals (25lbs), and Flight Attendant Manuals ( 4 x 25lbs) that the iPAD will eventually replace. 175 lbs is the weight of a person. The added weight of 1 person does add to our fuel burn, especially on flights 5 hrs or more to Hawaii. Fuel savings alone will save the airlines many thousands of dollars per year.

The benefits of using the iPAD continue to add up for us we become more familiar with all it’s capabilities. For those of us running the airline, we can appreciate the benefits better than those in the back of the aircraft.
 
More proof that the airlines aren't actually "struggling". Over charging for tickets , over charging for luggage , over charging for drinks and food , forcing pilots to work crazy hours with no breaks in between , forcing pilots to take massive pay cuts (many are vastly underpaid and don't get anymore than $19,000 a year) , forcing flight attendants and baggage staff to take pay cuts. BUT hey guess what? The airlines made over $3.2 billion dollars last year (that's right , with a B) on fee's charged for luggage and changing flights ...

And now the thinking is lets buy iPads that the pilots don't want and increase the possible risk of possible accidents while doing so.

Fuck.

If I made 19K as a pilot, I'd friggin quit and go manage a McDonalds or something. I am guessing, that you sir, havent a clue what a pilot makes.

http://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilot/airlinepayrates.html
 
Not sure about commercial flying, but when I was in the 82nd Airborne, we had a jump (usually 2 dog & pony shows a year) to put on a "demonstration" for VIPs and it ended in disaster from a simple mistake.

The jump should have been scratched due to the low ceiling (fog), but they decided that we had to show that we could carry on the mission under any circumstances (cause it'd convince them to give us more funding). Anyways, the idiot Air Force guys on the ground planning the approach, got their calculations 180 degrees off. Sooo...instead of landing on the DZ, we ALL landing in the trees! There were a lot of broken bones and equipment that night. (...not to mention the scariest night of my life when I couldn't see anything and all of a sudden I got a boot in the face.)

That was the only "bad" jump I had...but, (I think) it shows that the littlest error can produce a big consequence in situations where every mistake matters.

I think I would be looking up a few air force people to have a little "talk" with them about that...
 
There's a lot of bullshit on this topic in the news and in this thread........


......Would I want an iPad used as a Class 1 EFB? Not really. Then again, I wouldn't want to use most commercial devices. I'd rather have something with good sunlight readability and actual buttons dedicated to the things I want. When you're at 35,000 feet in a cockpit with lots of windows it is sometimes difficult to read commercial displays. I'd also prefer a Class 2 device frankly with power coming from aircraft systems so you don't have to rely on the pilot or maintenance guy to have it fully charged. I also wouldn't want the fuckers playing Angry Birds with an iPad during the flight.

Avionics are sure as hell not cheap, my brother in law is building an experimental right now, just a single one of his multi function display units for his instrument cluster is over $3K, and then there is all the other electronics in the aircraft..... all of it ungodly expensive because it has to be certified. This is for VFR, IFR certified instruments are an order of magnitude more expensive. sticking a consumer device of questionable reliablity in a commerical aircraft is mind boggling.
 
I currently am a pilot flying widebody aircraft with ~200 people capacity. A lot of us use iPads. They are *EXTREMELY* robust and work absolutely fantastic in the cockpit and for enroute charts and terminal plates.

I have the entire set of publications for safe flight, the aircraft technical manuals, the charts and plates, and more in a 1.5lb package that outperforms current EFBs.

The iPad has been subjected to several hundred hours of flight in F-18 aircraft and via other methods to include rapid decompression above 50,000 feet.



As to the cost: the iPad is $500. One per pilot = $1000 per plane. The ForeFlight HD subscription (all enroute charts and FAA plates for US airfields and some foreign stuff too) is $150 a year.

A Jeppesen subscription for worldwide ops (what I use) costs $11k a year (to the company).

For US-only flights, the iPad with ForeFlight HD is awesome. For worldwide flights, JeppTC (requires the aforementioned $11k subscription for paper pubs), is even more awesome. Except it doesn't have enroute charts.



I despise Apple.

You can have my iPad when you pry it from my cold dead hands long after I'm retired from flying large aircraft.
 
I currently am a pilot flying widebody aircraft with ~200 people capacity. A lot of us use iPads. They are *EXTREMELY* robust and work absolutely fantastic in the cockpit and for enroute charts and terminal plates.

I have the entire set of publications for safe flight, the aircraft technical manuals, the charts and plates, and more in a 1.5lb package that outperforms current EFBs.

The iPad has been subjected to several hundred hours of flight in F-18 aircraft and via other methods to include rapid decompression above 50,000 feet.



As to the cost: the iPad is $500. One per pilot = $1000 per plane. The ForeFlight HD subscription (all enroute charts and FAA plates for US airfields and some foreign stuff too) is $150 a year.

A Jeppesen subscription for worldwide ops (what I use) costs $11k a year (to the company).

For US-only flights, the iPad with ForeFlight HD is awesome. For worldwide flights, JeppTC (requires the aforementioned $11k subscription for paper pubs), is even more awesome. Except it doesn't have enroute charts.



I despise Apple.

You can have my iPad when you pry it from my cold dead hands long after I'm retired from flying large aircraft.

I am guessing they are using some sort of otterbox like protection system on them?
 
Regulations require them to carry maps. The "maps" are large, cumbersome books that cost thousands of dollars. The iPads won't be any more expensive and will be lighter.

They said this will save millions of dollars on fuel costs. I'm inclined to believe them. They're not putting these iPads in the cockpits because they're fun.

This is exactly correct.


Enroute charts are updated (worldwide) roughly every 56 days on different cycles.

Terminal approach plates (the things that allow us to get your asses safely on the ground in dogshit weather) are updated every 28 days.


There are 40 some odd IFR charts just to cover the continental US (not including the VFR charts). The stack of approach plates is several thousand double-sided pages thick. It is a lot of paper waste, weighs roughly 15 lbs per pilot, and rather expensive and a pain in the ass to upkeep.


The iPad is $500 ($1000 for two). It has a 10 hour battery life. You can plug it into the plane to recharge it while enroute. You can get all the same charts mentioned above for $150 a year. No paper. 100x less weight. Automatic updates every 28 days...all you need is wifi or 3G.
 
coming from a 4 year c-130 flight engineer, an ipad/ipod has no use being in my cockpit, when we would fly over the atlantic ocean and let say we had a critical malfunction with our nav system, the nav operator would use a compass and the stars to navigate until i could fix the issue, im sorry but i would rather rely on something that has been used for thousands of years to help find out our heading than a stupid ipad that decided to do a full lockout due to panic and mistyping the password, not to mention the stress that can be caused due to vertigo.

C-130s aren't real airplanes. Don't you know they already replaced you with a computer...and the Nav too?
 
I am guessing they are using some sort of otterbox like protection system on them?

Nope, we use the Apple cases or other off-the-shelf brands. Most of us have the original iPad and a few have the iPad 2.

I'll have to see if I can find the information on the flight testing that has already been done.
 
but but decompression, wet screen, blah blah blah...

See post #53 by crashbox.

wonder if they tested it for exposure to inflight urination hazards? cause if I went through decompression at 50,000 feet, I think that would be an issue....
 
People not reading the article first and hating on Apple. Nothing new here..move along.

lol, we are not hating apple, ok fine "insert your Tablet OS/Device here" replacing Paper Maps on the cockpit, that is the topic. :cool:
 
My only gripe about this is that this is just another way for airlines to jack up the cost of flying. Airline tickets are already way overpriced. Now they'll go up even more to cover the cost of a ton of iPads.
 
but but decompression, wet screen, blah blah blah...

See post #53 by crashbox.

Did you even read the test?

They tested both the iPad and iPad 2 in rapid decompression to 51,000 feet, which is far higher than most passenger carrying aircraft fly.

I have gone through altitude chamber rides where a rapid decompression is done from sea level to 10,000 feet. This is roughly a 31% reduction in pressure. The surrounding air gets noticeably cooler and moisture does condense, essentially creating a cloud or fog in the cockpit/cabin.

In testing the iPad, they went through roughly an 89% reduction in pressure (85% reduction if they started the test at the max allowable cabin altitude of 8000 feet). There will be far more cooling and condensing...

...and the iPad functioned fine during and after the test.


And for those who say it is "merely" a Class 1 EFB...look again:

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2011/InFO11011.pdf

The iPad is commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) electronic hardware that is not approved or certified by the FAA. However, it can be authorized for use...

The Jeppesen Mobile TC App displays approach plates, terminal procedures, and airport diagrams and is defined as a Type B software application per AC 120-76A.

...

To be used in critical phases of flight [taxi, takeoff, approach, and landing], an EFB displaying Type B software must be secured and viewable. A kneeboard is one way to accomplish this.

...

At the end of a successful evaluation period, the operator is authorized to use the iPad as an EFB to replace certain required paper products.

It is a Class 1 EFB that can be authorized for use in all phases of flight, and has been for certain operators.

And again, for those who refuse to read the thread: iPads are far cheaper than their equivalent paper products.
 
Yeah cost isn't the issue here, 500 bucks for anything that a pilot uses in the cockpit is nothing. The paper they replace is worth at least that.
 
coming from a 4 year c-130 flight engineer, an ipad/ipod has no use being in my cockpit, when we would fly over the atlantic ocean and let say we had a critical malfunction with our nav system, the nav operator would use a compass and the stars to navigate until i could fix the issue, im sorry but i would rather rely on something that has been used for thousands of years to help find out our heading than a stupid ipad that decided to do a full lockout due to panic and mistyping the password, not to mention the stress that can be caused due to vertigo.

If that were the case we would still be crossing the atlantic on sail power
 
I think I would be looking up a few air force people to have a little "talk" with them about that...

Haha! The jump should have been scratched to begin with. Per regulation, there's a minimum "ceiling" that is measured for prior to the jump (with a big ass red balloon) anyways. So, if anyone was to blame, it was definitely the idiots in charge that day.

...couldn't see your hand in front of your face (fully extended), let alone anything as a point of reference by the jumpmaster to confirm we were headed the right direction. Word was that the VIPs didn't even come out anyways. (This was "normal" Army logic though.)

...but, yeah. I'd definitely worry if American Airlines keeps highlighting how much money they'll save in fuel cost because of the iPad move. (I think that's "normal" corporate logic there.)
 
Normally I would side with the old tried-and-true paper but I think the problem is in some people assuming there will be only ONE Ipad in the cockpit. If both pilot and co-pilot have one then there's two present. If one fails the other probably will not fail at the exact same time. That's the same reason airplanes have co-pilots. If the pilot suffers a medical emergency and cannot fly the plane the co-pilot is there. If it's a true time-critical emergency you wouldn't be looking at a map either. You'll be on the squawk box with the tower, eyes on instruments, and doing your best to keep the plane from turning into a pretty ball of fiery death on the ground. Considering everything else that can go wrong with an aircraft I think the Ipads are a non-issue.
 
who knew a map thread could still exist in genmay?!

just go with the ipads. paper is great, but its time to move on.
 
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