AMD's Llano Fusion - A Series APUs @ [H]

Zumino Zufeilon said:
Not to be a devil's-advocate here, but there's an old expression, "If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle".

Who's 3rd party GPU are they going to pack in there? AMD? Nvidia? Nope, Intel is the "largest producer of GPU's in the world" because they put their HD3000/4500 on every motherboard in every Big-Box computer sold. Llano/Lynx has the ability to breakdown Intel's lead there. Walk into a Worst Buy, and check how many Sandy Bridge versus Core i3/Pentium Dual Core/Athlon II/Phenom II computers there are. Remember, MOST people aren't [H], most people don't read these message boards, and for MOST people, the graphics advantage of a Llano/Lynx is more important then the CPU advantage of Sandy Bridge, especially if the Llano/Lynx is cheaper.

Sandy Bridge is a fantastic processor, but the GPU is pretty meh. Ivy Bridge seems to promise only small improvements there. When Intel goes 22nm, we'll see the advantages of a die shrink (reduced power use/heat), but probably limited performance gain, and that performance gain will be focused on the CPU.

And for the majority of users, there is precious little real, noticeable, performance difference between a Phenom II or a Sandy Bridge. Sure, the Sandy Bridge is a lot faster, but they're both past the point of diminishing returns in real-world applications.
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Neither AMD nor Nvidia. Intel will probably use a more powerful variant of the new PowerVR GPU which they have already announced for all Atom CPUs.
http://vr-zone.com/articles/exclusive-intel-s-cedarview-atom-to-sport-powervr-graphics/12117.html
 
Mat3 said:
So every test was done using an additional Radeon...(?) How about some gaming benchmarks that show just what the Llano chip itself can do? That's probably more relevant for more people. Yeah, you'd have to turn down some settings and maybe the resolution, but it should still be able to provide a decent gaming experience.
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i believe the laptop they were using came with the dedicated card. so obviously why neuter the laptop design if it came with it.
 
Fantasyalive said:
I thought activision/blizzard also had the largest percentage of pc game sales for 2010 as well by a fairly significant amount between WoW and SC2.
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Part of the problem, the amount of users and time spent on a single game (WoW) basically caused the casual PC gamer, ones that WoW targets to stop buying games. This means that only people actively trying to use their powerful computer as a gaming center buys PC games. Its hard to make a game, with its niche, in a market only really supported by a handful of users. Its basically a perfect storm with it getting popular at the same time consoles were ultra competitive with PC hardware.

SC2 is great because its not only aimed a casual users, playing it is also casual. But the worst thing to happen to PC gaming, is a MMO with its monthly subscription and high daily involvement to become so big.

On the reverse end the desire for a system to play the latest WoW expansion has even though its one of the least intensive games out there, kept hardware companies pushing forward.
 
I'm interested in this battle-

$500 llano/6400igp vs $500 i3/hd


with prices falling on first gen Core cpus, you could get a 1G Core i with discrete dx11 switchable graphics that will kick the llano's ass in both computing and games, for the same price as a new llano.
 
Its all about keeping power and parts down. I'm on the fence on getting this until more HTPC applications are used in the reviews. It was a pain before to get good rips to play with minimal problems on prior IGP's but if this one solves that with out getting a discrete I will be soooo happy.

still using a 4550.
 
[+Duracell-];1037390448 said:
New HTPC processor, anyone?
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That's exactly what I'm thinking. Looking at Anands performance of this chip it's on equal footing with 220 and 240 discrete which is exactly what a lot of people have used for thier HTPC's (I went with 430...more or less in the same performance bracket). It's head and shoulders above what's in i3's.

The real question is going to be price.
 
dr.kevin said:
I'm interested in this battle-

$500 llano/6400igp vs $500 i3/hd


with prices falling on first gen Core cpus, you could get a 1G Core i with discrete dx11 switchable graphics that will kick the llano's ass in both computing and games, for the same price as a new llano.
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AMD's solution should in general be $100 cheaper and it will deliver gaming performance at less watts.
 
dr.kevin said:
I'm interested in this battle-

$500 llano/6400igp vs $500 i3/hd


with prices falling on first gen Core cpus, you could get a 1G Core i with discrete dx11 switchable graphics that will kick the llano's ass in both computing and games, for the same price as a new llano.
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yep and end up paying that money you save on electricity. i'd rather spend 100-150 dollars more for the battery life and electricity savings while still being able to play some games.
 
I've never considered buying a laptop for personal (non-business) use but this review has given me second thoughts.
 
The great thing about this chip is summed up in the last line. It's a chip that can be recommended to friends and parents with little hesitation knowing that it should handle anything they are likely to use it for without having to hear the phone call "Why is my computer so slow?" It's also a win for newly minted college students. It's inexpensive (~$700) and can be used for almost any task (including games!) a student is likely to use it for.

As for the desktop part, I think it's awesome for HTPC in mini-ITX form. The problem is that the form factor has one expansion slot and if you wanted to game on it ever, it had to be filled with a video card. Now, you should be able to put something else there (for me it would be a tuner card) and still game a little bit as the desktop chip should be even faster than what we've seen here.

In addition, with video built-in to the chip, how much cheaper will motherboards be? Probably not much, but it's got to be something ($5-10)
 
well in any case I will be replacing the general use computer with a Lynx, think thats the desktop name for llano right?, in attempt to save on power.
 
Rizen said:
I've never considered buying a laptop for personal (non-business) use but this review has given me second thoughts.
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I agree. I'm getting to the point (age) where I'm wearing down on building stout desktop rigs. I've become more interested in the mobility and convenience aspect of computing but I'm still hesitant to give up pure gaming performance. Until now.

I like what I'm seeing here as notebooks are becoming more appealing to me. That's especially so if I can jump in at a price around $700.

Yeah, my desktop days may be numbered.
 
ICOM said:
I agree. I'm getting to the point (age) where I'm wearing down on building stout desktop rigs. I've become more interested in the mobility and convenience aspect of computing but I'm still hesitant to give up pure gaming performance. Until now.

I like what I'm seeing here as notebooks are becoming more appealing to me. That's especially so if I can jump in at a price around $700.

Yeah, my desktop days may be numbered.
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my problem with laptops is they pretty consistently die within 3 years if used constantly. Get the warranties I suppose or prepare to buy another every 2-3 years.
 
Sojuuk said:
my problem with laptops is they pretty consistently die within 3 years if used constantly. Get the warranties I suppose or prepare to buy another every 2-3 years.
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But isn't that the real life span of use anyways. I couldn't imagine using my laptop much longer then that for what I got it for. So now you get it for $400 cheaper for the performance you are getting and it brings it down to the level of disposal-ability of a similar desktop.
 
Sojuuk said:
my problem with laptops is they pretty consistently die within 3 years if used constantly. Get the warranties I suppose or prepare to buy another every 2-3 years.
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Thats funny because my wife's laptop I folded on it for 3 years and it is still running strong. (not folding now as it is too slow)

 
My server is running one of the E-Class APUs, it's very powerful for what it is. It will be exciting to see how the A-Class APUs turn out as well.
 
Had some problems viewing the slide deck. Looks like the query string is getting to long as you progress through the deck. Haven't seen this problem before in any of these types of image lists.

I am using Google Chrome (Latest) if that helps any.
 
Sojuuk said:
my problem with laptops is they pretty consistently die within 3 years if used constantly. Get the warranties I suppose or prepare to buy another every 2-3 years.
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all depends on the manufacture what what supplier they use. but 9 times out of 10 the first thing that dies is the motherboard. mostly because the laptop has inadequate cooling and cooks the board.
 
I wonder if they will be doing a dual apu such as two a8-3530mx's on one laptop.
 
BravO))) said:
I wonder if they will be doing a dual apu such as two a8-3530mx's on one laptop.
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That doesn't make any sense.
1. They would have to re-engineer the APU's to allow multi-cpu, mult-socket operation, which they only include on much more expensive Opterons.
2. That solution would net you 8 extremely slow CPU cores when there is little need for 8 cores on a laptop to begin with. If there is a need for 8 threads to be run, then there are more powerful mobile i7's from Intel, or people could wait for Bulldozer Trinity next year. Both of those should produce better performance.
3. It would take up too much space, too much heat, and too much power for a laptop.
4. Too expensive to implement due to additional cooling apparatus and extra batteries needed to run the monstrosity.
5. Infinitely simpler to just crossfire a Llano to a low end discrete GPU, use a more powerful discrete GPU to replace the Llano's built in graphics entirely, and in either solution use switchable graphics to keep power and heat down. Both methods would result in more powerful graphics and less power and heat than 2 APU's working in tandem.

Even if # 2-5 weren't enough reason to avoid that setup entirely, there is reason #1 that prevents that kind of setup altogether. It could be argued that #2-5 (and many others I'm sure) are the reasons why AMD didn't allow #1 to occur in the first place.
 
So where can I go today to buy a laptop with these in them? So far I've only found an HP. Who else has them ready right now?
 
CaptNumbNutz said:
That doesn't make any sense.
1. They would have to re-engineer the APU's to allow multi-cpu, mult-socket operation, which they only include on much more expensive Opterons.
2. That solution would net you 8 extremely slow CPU cores when there is little need for 8 cores on a laptop to begin with. If there is a need for 8 threads to be run, then there are more powerful mobile i7's from Intel, or people could wait for Bulldozer Trinity next year. Both of those should produce better performance.
3. It would take up too much space, too much heat, and too much power for a laptop.
4. Too expensive to implement due to additional cooling apparatus and extra batteries needed to run the monstrosity.
5. Infinitely simpler to just crossfire a Llano to a low end discrete GPU, use a more powerful discrete GPU to replace the Llano's built in graphics entirely, and in either solution use switchable graphics to keep power and heat down. Both methods would result in more powerful graphics and less power and heat than 2 APU's working in tandem.

Even if # 2-5 weren't enough reason to avoid that setup entirely, there is reason #1 that prevents that kind of setup altogether. It could be argued that #2-5 (and many others I'm sure) are the reasons why AMD didn't allow #1 to occur in the first place.
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Agreed, adding two llano chips together would be inefficient and money ill spent. The next step for this little APU is to speed up the cpu core's by inserting the Bulldozer design and enable the GPU to perform certain CPU computations. Trinity is where the real change is going to come in for AMD. Llano is just the beginning. But we aren't going to see top line discrete GPU performance out of APU's, That market will always exist.
 
cyrusfox said:
Agreed, adding two llano chips together would be inefficient and money ill spent. The next step for this little APU is to speed up the cpu core's by inserting the Bulldozer design and enable the GPU to perform certain CPU computations. Trinity is where the real change is going to come in for AMD. Llano is just the beginning. But we aren't going to see top line discrete GPU performance out of APU's, That market will always exist.
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Could two Llano CPUs communicate over PCI Express? Since it is a bi-directional serial interface, like HT?

It wouldn't make any sense to put two Llanos into a notebook, but make something similar to those Atom servers that SeaMicro makes, could make a nice HPC machine...

Hmm, 128 A8-3850 chips = 512 CPU cores and 51,200 SPs
 
JMccovery said:
Could two Llano CPUs communicate over PCI Express? Since it is a bi-directional serial interface, like HT?
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No it needs to be cache coherent. ccHT is the only option.

Nice balanced review Kyle, thankyou.
Unlike another site that shall remain unnamed
 
Was seriously on the fence to buy a new laptop a couple weeks ago... I am SOOO glad I waited. The sub $700 gaming laptop scene is pretty damn sparse.

Gimme something that can game at native rez for $600 and I'm all in!!!!

My 5 year old acer is still a good web surfer but it is just useless for games.
 
Gimme something that can game at native rez for $600 and I'm all in!!!!
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This is the best I could find in the ~$700 budget. It's pretty capable, but the battery life is probably complete crap. I'm waiting for something that's a little more portable with better battery life, with the same performance and price. I think I might be waiting a while, heh...
 
I would seriously wait a month or two until the market gets a bit more platforms out there, prices will only continue to drop on the mobile side. I'll probably be shopping for a llano notebook come august/september. On the desktop side though, The motherboards are now avaiable on newegg, but I hear we won't be able to buy the APU's till Thursday, and according to Fudzilla, only the high end APU will be avaiable initially.

Looks like it will only be $135 for the A8-3850, not too shabby. Can't wait for the desktop reviews. The performance of the CPU has to beat my Phenom ii 965 BE, I would think with the die shrink(45nm to 32nm).
 
JMccovery said:
Could two Llano CPUs communicate over PCI Express? Since it is a bi-directional serial interface, like HT?

It wouldn't make any sense to put two Llanos into a notebook, but make something similar to those Atom servers that SeaMicro makes, could make a nice HPC machine...

Hmm, 128 A8-3850 chips = 512 CPU cores and 51,200 SPs
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It could work, but it would be a proprietary system (expensive) and PCI-E would not be as efficient as HT 3.0. The UMI bus could perhaps work, but again, it would need to be re-engineered to work with two physical CPUs.

Good idea, but the cost would outweigh the benefits and worth of the system and how much the manufacturer/AMD could make off of it.
 
dr.kevin said:
i think they can do better on the price.

the cpu is as shitty as a low end athlon 2 mobile cpu, and the igp is really cut down, somewhere between a zacate and the top end a8.
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Find me a better laptop for $371.99

Only options at $349 are the new sandybridge celerons. Toshiba has an i3 with 3gb of ram and only 320gb hdd for $399.

At this price intel's integrated graphics get spanked by the a4-3300mh HD 6480G. While the i3 itself is faster than the a4-3300m.
 
[F8];1037445544 said:
Find me a better laptop for $371.99

Only options at $349 are the new sandybridge celerons. Toshiba has an i3 with 3gb of ram and only 320gb hdd for $399.

At this price intel's integrated graphics get spanked by the a4-3300mh HD 6480G. While the i3 itself is faster than the a4-3300m.
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i wouldn't use the word "spanked".

the 6480g is positioned between the 6370m and 6470m, and based on that, it would only be 10-15% faster than an intel HD3000.

so the trade off for up to 15% faster graphics is a huge spanking in cpu power.
yes, cpu spanking is the right word here.

i think the a4 6480g will fall to $349 in no time the next few months, when the whole line up comes out.
I don't think people will be too happy with the 6480g performance, in light of the crappy A4 cpu they have to settle for.
There aren't even any reviews for the A4. What's the hold up...
 
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