I just finished watching his video, first time watching this youtuber, I feel like this video is too much opinions rather than something more concrete. He states he doesn't know 6800 and 6900 will land in terms of performance and pricing due to final specification will not be done the first week of October yet thinks it will be an October launch. I do not know if AMD will be launching the cards themselves or will have AIB partners launching reference card too but is that enough time to validate every single card before shipping it? The 6700 is a bit more concrete as that will be launch is Q1 of 2021, that is disappointing if true.
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AMD's best Big Navi GPU may only be a match for Nvidia Ampere's second tier
- Thread starter erek
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Knowing amd they always seem to favor an open approach so whatever they come out with will likely be something that consoles can take advantage off. I really don’t see amd coming up with a closed exclusive solution like dlss. What that does is splits the industry and I don’t know how much success they would have. I believe Xbox and PS5 have some machine learning tech already so it’s like going to be something that can be universal so developers are more motivated to add the code and it just goes across platform.
5150Joker
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Yah they’ll definitely create a solution that consoles can use and be open because that’s their style. If it can be a universal feature that’s used on existing games, even better. DLSS is fantastic but very very limited due to devs being beholden to consoles. I wish nvidia would invest a few billion in Activision and EA to have a larger sway over their game development.
Check out his history. He doesn’t share everything because his source is not ready for him to share info so he doesn’t get in trouble. Because if source is one of the few people that know it will be easier to determine where it leaked from. That’s why he didn’t give too much info he made that clear in the beginning and he outright states when something is his opinion.
look at his history. Zen, RDNA and Radeon vII all spot on. He was the only one who leaked a picture and said it was coming to ces as first 7nm GPU.
it’s just clocks that are not final. It’s already well rumored that we might not see any AIB cards in. He said evert thing is suppose to be finalized this month.
A GPU comes out that tempts you to spend money that you should spend on survival supplies for 2021.
I can see Microsoft working with NVidia and maybe greasing their palms a little to bring DLSS into a later version of DX12 and have it as part of the spec, or hell maybe we will get an evolved TAA, AiTAA or something like that and it just becomes an industry standard that is hardware agnostic how ever the other AA methods got into everything.
Auer
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As AMD keeps loosing market share, whatever their version of DLSS might be is simply getting less and less relevant.
I think this is a do or die moment for the Radeon Folks at AMD. "Equal with for slightly less" is probably not enough at this stage, needs to be a clear advantage win with the marketing to match it.
I think this is a do or die moment for the Radeon Folks at AMD. "Equal with for slightly less" is probably not enough at this stage, needs to be a clear advantage win with the marketing to match it.
They do but from what I read from some developers it was implemented in a way very similar to DLSS 1.0 so it is very game specific which is fine on a platform with a known hardware configuration on what is overall a pretty static system, but that means they are probably 2 years behind NVidia on their PC implementation. Though I would be really happy if they pulled a rabbit out of their hat and were all like BLAM then there was a huge smoke show with lasers and Lisa didn't pull out a rabbit but instead it was Tim Sweeney and he gives an announcement about how their version of it was ready to go for the next Unreal engine and blah blah blah they talk about how their tech is helping out the team working on The Mandalorian, some how get some exclusive footage there for the event and our collective minds are blown.
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This is mis-information.
As long as AMD has the consoles on lock down, and as long as consoles continue to be a major factor, then there really isn't any concern for amd.
I'm sure someone will come along to say that console margins are slim, yadda yadda, but having consoles means that games have to be, on some level, AMD friendly.
Plus they are doing well in the cpu arena.
I've probably been marked by the fans around here as a amd supporter, which is hilarious because the last amd product (and only including ati) I bought was an HD5900 (i think, it had the multi monitor support for games, was pretty cool until it died on me). been with team green before and after, but some around here think any critic of their favorite color means you hate it and never buy it, instead of just critical thinking.
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UnknownSouljer
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This might be relevant for PC gaming, but every PS5 and XSX is running AMD hardware. nVidia has to game changing. Everyone has to program for AMD hardware by default. Why bother to do it twice unless it's really good? Being really good is the only way nVidia gets coded for at this point.
EDIT: Aireoth already beat me this point.
To further down the AMD friendly train of thought for all PS5 and Xbox systems I do have to wonder what library are they using. Xbox is obviously using DX12U which levels the playing field somewhat between AMD and NVidia because they should both handle the same calls in the same way. My biggest question is what is the new PS running because depending on what’s going on there changes things to some degree. Yes all stuff has to be AMD friendly but this I think has far more to do with their CPU’s and programming in ways that are friendly to their chiplet designs. I’m not at all disagreeing with your points that everything by default is going to have some degree of AMD favourable elements included I’m just wondering how many of those could be ported between consoles and PC’s.
Auer
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I specifically mentioned market share, and I should have added that I meant the discrete PC GPU market.
Has AMD's dominance in the console market had any real impact here?
cybereality
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I can't see any confirmed details, but very likely will be a proprietary Sony API like they used on PS3 and PS4.
Also, to counter the original argument, PS4 and XBO already use AMD hardware and this didn't move the needle in terms of the PC market and AMD GPUs.
True but at that time AMD was putting their efforts heavily into getting their CPU's and APU's into reasonable shape, and we are lucky they did, just think of what would have happened to them if Zen was a flop. Now that they have their CPU's in a good place they can shift some of those resources over to graphics again, so I have 0 doubt that they are bringing a set of solid products to market. I can't really remember the last time I was eager to listed to an AMD launch event, but I will be crawling my ass out of bed early for this one.
I mean yes I love DLSS for the one title I am playing that has it, it was a literal game changer. But it's isn't an end all be all NVidia came with the big guns for all their features and they have a very attractive ecosystem but that stuff all costs money so AMD can put those savings into pricing and everything I have seen shows for some excellent price/performance numbers. I mean yeah the 3090 is a beautiful beast and somebody needs to have the bragging rights for king of the hill but that slog in the middle is the important bit and I just home TSMC and AMD can deliver. I would hate for them to put out a stellar set of cards and only be able to find them at 2x msrp on EBay which given the relatively cheap pricing for both teams makes me think my new systems regardless of what they are running aren't getting built till Easter.
Manny Calavera
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Doesn't Nvidia have a wafer agreement with TSMC,for 5nm from 2021
through 2022 for Hopper onward ? As well as more 7nm for Big AMPERE?
Gideon
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You have to keep in mind in any agreement it does not guarantee it's for the consumer market, could be for their AI and data center business. I am not sure if Nvidia has a 5nm agreement with TSMC but it's more then likely.
Axman
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I thought it was just through 2021. They started shifting to Samsung last year for Ampere. TSMC still says they plan to have 3nm up and running by 2022, so maybe by then they'll have more space on 5 and 7nm. But that's probably too late for Nvidia and they'll also probably be farther along with Samsung.
At this point I'd honestly be surprised if they have a gaming card planned for current or near-future TSMC glass. I'm happy to be wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.
They do, but it’s a necessary approach when you’re a challenger. Can’t exhibit monopoly behaviors until you’ve no longer got effective competition. Nvidia are telegraphing a “ooh fuck, better behave for a bit” inverse example of those behaviours with this gen
I want AMD to continue to be open and I’d *like* it if Nvidia did the same but I am under no illusions that they will both increasingly start trying to lock in proprietary stuff and keep cranking prices if they keep succeeding. There can be a benefit to a company for being a good partner (see consoles with this example) but it’s hard given those pesky shareholders. Everyone wants vertical businesses with a monopoly.
I worked for a company that was the 800lb gorilla in their sector so I saw it all go down in the meetings and product teams. Causes quite the dilemma when someone upends your product line.
Definitely all interesting times, historically I’d have wondered if this was a monopolist nvidia trying to euthanise their competition by grinding their margins so AMD can’t compete / survive but it can’t be that, they’re basically competing with a completely different company to 3 years ago.
UnknownSouljer
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I'll admit upfront I have zero hard numbers/evidence. But I extrapolate logically. If you're developing games for XSX and PS5 that have highly specialized code optimized for AMD based processors and GPU's, why would you unoptimize your code when creating PC versions of the same software? Logically PC versions of console titles should already be optimized for AMD hardware. Perhaps they are not. But I would argue it's an extra step to optomize for nVidia hardware after you've done so for AMD hardware for "PC ports".
AMD has 100% of the discrete GPU market in Macs, almost all consoles... they can afford to fail in PC gaming for a while. They only need to aim to stay relevant until they can come up with something genius for GPUs. Maybe they have that now, maybe they don't.
I've heard the exact same arguments for AMD during Maxwell and later Pascal launch: AMD owns the console space, it'll translate to PC games, AMD is in all Apple products, etc... Let's just say none of that panned out with their products during the last console generation.
Let's just stay cautiously optimistic of AMD's chances instead of being severely disappointed. Anyone else remember the hype train with their BetterRed and Poor Volta campaign?
Let's just stay cautiously optimistic of AMD's chances instead of being severely disappointed. Anyone else remember the hype train with their BetterRed and Poor Volta campaign?
8nm is 7nm minus EUVL. Gate Pitch and M1 for 8nm are slighly inproved upon 10nm, and there is a new standard uHD cell not available on 10nm. With the new cells 8nm is ~18% more dense than 10nm.
"The requirement for an X86-based SOC ostensibly removed Nvidia from the running."
https://moorinsightsstrategy.com/the-real-reasons-microsoft-sony-chose-amd-for-the-xbox-one-and-ps4/
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No such hype train anymore.
This is the bottom line.
I can't think of any generation of GPUs where AMD didn't look better after a year of game updates... and look better on games released 2-3 years down the line. I know that doesn't mean a ton to most of us that are changing cards out every couple years at most anyway. Still it goes to show that the game developers build for AMD. Nvidias way its meant to be played stuff is pretty much required... and AMD has little to no need to try and ape that all that much. Games are going to be optimized for AMD regardless.
I am most interested to see what AMD has planned for Ray tracing. I would assume if it is drastically different from Nvidias.... Nvidias solution is going to progressively become the less of the 2 solutions. Like it or not every AAA game has a life in console land.... and they are going to get optimized for consoles and by extension RDNA2. I suspect benchmarks on day one are going to show NV ray tracing being superior to AMDs.... but what about in a year from now when every new AAA title with tracing is going to be aimed at AMDs arch.
Even if AMD is just = to 3080.... or frankly even if they are just equal to 3070 at the exact same price. AMD will still have a interesting part imo. I expect they will be competing in the halo category this round. But even if its close or there a bit behind. They are going to have the superior industry standard RT format... no matter how much NV wants to burn marking monies claiming otherwise.
Auer
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Bottom line is AMD needs to hurry up.
Axman
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Availability is going to play a huge role this round. Who knows, maybe AMD doesn't need to hurry at all.
Yes and the fact that Microsoft was trying to renegotiate pricing with Nvidia for almost 2 years on the previous generation prior to that had nothing to do with the situation. Microsoft was quite annoyed that they where loosing money on Xbox... while Nvidia posted 400 million in profit off the chip they where selling MS. Microsoft took a bath on Xbox and Nvidia was unwilling to shave even a point of profit off their chips. At the end of the day... sure they looked at Nvidias part. We will never know, it may have actually been a bit faster then AMDs solution. I suspect that unless it was drastically faster MS would have went with AMD anyway. Knowing that even if the quoted costs today where =.... if things went south in a year AMD would negotiate new pricing, or if AMD could reduce costs with a node shrink they would talk price. NV has been proven to be unwilling to budge >.< Once you are locked to their chips they will no longer talk price. If their costs shrink their profits go up end of story. (and they did Nvidia made more profit off their Xbox chip after it was over a year old... despite lower sales numbers lol)
Notice that after that Microsoft as well as Sony both started talking about hardware partnerships. lol Nvidia is a terrible business partner and everyone knows it. Once they sell you a chip they really don't care if your product is selling or not... if its going to crash out of the market and end the contract in their opinion all well. Someone else will come knocking... and know they pay.
Nvidia is thoroughly hated in the industry. Not just by MS and Sony. There is a reason no one outside of Nintendo has purchased SOC from nvidia. They should be from a technical standpoint one of the most popular high performance ARM parts.... yet no one gets in bed with Nvidia.
I would assume they are waiting on Sony and MS.... probably have agreed to not steal their thunder too much.
Auer
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I can dig that, also dig that your glass is half full, and not half empty
There is a rumor that the reason the original switch was built on a old process node was because Nintendo wasn't ready to pay the few dollars more that Nvidia was asking for a chip on 16nm
They are not even failing in PC gaming. Source after source of information and statistic has Ryzen CPUs selling to more gamers than Intel. Microcenters AMD section is bigger than Intels and I am not kidding.
There is that giant German Retailer Mindfactory or something like that, that confirms Ryzen sells more than Intel in Germany.
As far as the GPU space well... thats different but nVidia just only makes gpu, so your gonna see way more of those. AMD does cpu and GPU and mostly CPU.
Its not fair to say AMD is failing especially when they are not invested all in like nvidia. Nvidia cant lose, AMD doesnt need to worry when it comes to GPU, they are steady like a freight
Train gaining CPU market share globally and will continue as Zen 3 looks to smoke anything Intel has to offer and nVidia doesnt even make CPUs. And if nvidia tried theyre 30 years behind Intel and AMD.
I would compare saying, because amd gpu cant keep up with nVidia is like saying Nissan is a failure because the Leaf cant compete with Tesla. Nissan makes an incredibly large array of products that diversify and strengthen the company while Tesla makes a couple cars based on a single essential tech. Id be far more worried about nV failing over AMD, nV doesnt have a product to fall back on really. Maybe AI and now networking.
Longshot but what if AMD RDNA 3 or 4 absolutely ends up smoking nvidia? Dr Su is a bright ass CEO. Jensen is kind of a douche and is very Tim Cook like. Where as Su is more akin to Jobs.
And please forgive me. I dont speak with authority. I make mistakes and this is opinion and I may even sound foolish.
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If you read the link given, both Microsoft and Sony wanted ARM, but then ARM was only 32 bits and so they had to chose the x86 route, which left Nvidia outside the competition (as I quoted above). Nintendo had ARM64 available for them.
ZeroBarrier
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Drop in the bucket don't you think? Intel still controls over 60% marketshare in the CPU space. But sure, drop by drop they are finally starting to be a real contender. But let's all be smart adults here, we all know Intel is working the problem and will eventually come up with something that competes in multi-core. We're already hearing of possible competition in tiger lake, or am I mistaken?
Nvidia also makes more than just GPUs, they are in automotive, AI and cloud. So it's not fair to say that they only make GPUs and poor little AMD has to make both CPUs and GPUs to try to compete. And you're saying Nvidia can't lose? Sure they can, but the fact is they aren't losing.
This is the type of fanboy'ism that needs to end.
I find that those that call others fanboys are actually the fanboys. I liked your other response by the way considering optimizations, just not this one. It really offers nothing more than name calling.
GoodBoy
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You guys are a little sidetracked with the consoles... In the past both AMD and nVidia have had chips in consoles and I do not remember this giving either any sort of advantage.
I think you have that backwards. AMD biggest weakness in the GPU space is their total lack of strong drivers and strong support for game dev's. It shouldn't take a year or more before AMD is "finally good" at a game. This is a primary reason I haven't gone with AMD since a 9700 Pro (which gave me no end of driver issues with Quake 3, all that I really played back then). Driver issues, no day 1 game support. Day 365? Never mind...
I think you have that backwards. AMD biggest weakness in the GPU space is their total lack of strong drivers and strong support for game dev's. It shouldn't take a year or more before AMD is "finally good" at a game. This is a primary reason I haven't gone with AMD since a 9700 Pro (which gave me no end of driver issues with Quake 3, all that I really played back then). Driver issues, no day 1 game support. Day 365? Never mind...
I am glad they have something with enough rumors that its performance will be competitive to keep nVidias' prices in check. Go AMD!
Source? Or wishful thinking? Sounds like the latter.
GoodBoy
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Microsoft is supposed to be the one who loses money on their console sales. If nVidia was losing money on chip sales that would be the worst business decision ever. Microsoft makes that money up in licensing costs for software sales for the console (Sony too). It is not nVidia's place to lose money on a console... If you actually believe this, you need to go back to college.
That sounds like good business. There are many reasons why nVidia is on top, this would be one of them.
Source? More baseless speculation.
One would think it is in the console makers power, not nVidias (or any other soc vendor) to 'sell' their product. More baseless speculation.
Yet they actually have plenty of partners, and customers. Look at AI, Look at datacenters. They know what business partners to seek from the looks of it. Maybe a more accurate statement would be "hated by x% of forum posters..", this is obviously true, while your statements are not.
5150Joker
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The best tech enthusiast is one that’s brand agnostic and willing to look at both sides objectively. The fanboys from both sides (and I’ve been guilty of this in the past) add nothing to a discussion and just create headaches. It’s in everyone’s interest as PC gamers to have thriving competition and not a monopoly.
More fact twisting from you, as usual. If someone were to read the article like you suggested, they would read this
"At the end of the bake-off, ARM was deemed as not having the right kind of horsepower and that its 64-bit architecture wasn’t ready soon enough"
And
"AMD won this business because they have the advanced IP, know-how, experience and commitment to make this happen. They have leading edge IP in CPU, GPU, memory, video, audio, and I/O"
Nothing about Sony or MS wanting ARM and being forced to settle for x86 like your post implies.
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