AMD's best Big Navi GPU may only be a match for Nvidia Ampere's second tier

Snowdog said:
AMD will likely catch 3080, but they will pretty much have to double 5700Xt to do that, and then aren't even going to be able to price it much beyond 5700XT pricing if they hope to make a splash.
Click to expand...
Knowing AMD, they'll have something between RTX 3070 and 3080 but won't be priced competitively. I expect AMD to price Big Navi at $600 - $700 and that won't be enough to justify going with their hardware. AMD has always had a history of pricing it just $20-$50 cheaper than Nvidia while only being faster in a select few games. Gotta be cheaper and much more faster if AMD plans to put a dent in the GPU market. Also lets not forget that Intel is coming out with their own GPUs next year.
Flogger23m said:
Still pricey. The 3070 has an MSRP of $500, which is a lot for a **70. Realistically it will be $550 and it still only has 8GB. I'm not sure if I'd spend that kind of money for 8GB to keep for 2+ years, especially if I upgrade to an ultra wide monitor. Last thing I want is to run out of VRAM in upcoming games.
Click to expand...
I agree, these GPU's are still expensive. $100 cheaper than the rumors but that's still expensive. The GTX 970 was $330 at launch, so how did a 3070 end up at $500? Hopefully AMD will stop being idiots and price Big Navi competitively. Everyone remember when the 5700's were announced and Nvidia showed them by dropping prices before they were released? That made AMD look real stupid. Eventually the 5700's dropped so much in price that they fell bellow $300, which is $50 cheaper than the MSRP price drop. Now the 5700 XT's are $350. Since 2013 AMD can't price their products properly.
 
After the raping of peoples souls on the 20 series like me, this is what I expected performance wise. Remember Nvidia's sales in the 20 series were flat compared to past releases. Jensen knew this regardless what AMvaporwareD releases. If he would have released the 3070 for even $399, this would have been on par performance for dollar with the 900 series launch. But he doesn't have to because they are still competing with themselves with 80% of the dGPU market.

For the AMD fans. If Big Navi is coming to save the GPU market, where are the leaks? Even Ryzen had leaks in the CPU market from AMD. No manufactures leaked pictures, not a cooler picture, not even a backplate or connector shot. If you are AMD, wouldn't you want to stifle the competition even a little by a "leak" or two? Even Intel has shown pics of its upcoming Xe gaming version next year. Fury, Vega, Navi, Big Navi, Super Mambo 8K killer Navi 3..... Put up or shut up AMD. And even if they do, you know the actual 3080Ti is on the back burner, or possible 3090Ti. Hmmmm. 3080=699 3090=$1499 A lot of room in between for that too happen at the $899-999 price point. I'll say, 3080Ti March-April time frame. Like the old Ti releases.
 
Archaea said:
nvidia livestream today said 3080 is 2x as fast as 2080.
dubious? They say this is the biggest generation jump in nvidia's history. So it'd have to be > 70% right because wasn't about the previous high water mark?
Click to expand...

The question until benchmarks hit is.... 2x as fast, at general 3D. Or 2x as fast in regard to ray tracing.
I can believe 2x the speed when it comes to ray tracing. of course even with a 2x uplife the question will remain is it even a viable feature on the 3070/60 class cards anyway. Or be enough to justify developers pushing Ray tracing further... if doing so makes the majority of tracing cards choke.

We'll see when some trustworth sites get cards to test. I really am hoping it is a 2x performance gain across the board. If NV has responded to something AMD has cooked and they both deliver something in that range. It will be first time in a long time we have hit a generation that is going to tempt a large influx of upgrading. I just hope it doesn't kill supply and drive up pricing. It would really suck to see AMD better NVs mostly reasonable MSRPs.... and have none of the cards available for anything close to those prices anyway. If true... I imagine the resale market will either dry up or be full of great deals on 2000 and 5700 class hardware.
 
DukenukemX said:
Knowing AMD, they'll have something between RTX 3070 and 3080 but won't be priced competitively. I expect AMD to price Big Navi at $600 - $700 and that won't be enough to justify going with their hardware. AMD has always had a history of pricing it just $20-$50 cheaper than Nvidia while only being faster in a select few games. Gotta be cheaper and much more faster if AMD plans to put a dent in the GPU market. Also lets not forget that Intel is coming out with their own GPUs next year.
Click to expand...
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers. Real-time transcoding with no significant performance loss, real-time noise cancellation for their mics; and then DLSS. Stuff that is extremely useful that has very little to do with brute performance and more to do with developing attentively for end users.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers. Real-time transcoding with no significant performance loss, real-time noise cancellation for their mics; and then DLSS. Stuff that is extremely useful that has very little to do with brute performance and more to do with developing attentively for end users.
Click to expand...

Nvidia has definitely crafted a nice software ecosystem. It's a value add for sure.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers. Real-time transcoding with no significant performance loss, real-time noise cancellation for their mics; and then DLSS. Stuff that is extremely useful that has very little to do with brute performance and more to do with developing attentively for end users.
Click to expand...
The extra streamer focused features he showed today seemed pretty substantial. They practically remove the need for a dedicated secondary streaming PC.

Streaming isn't something I'd ever do (I'm straight) but I can see it being financially more attractive to just get an RTX card rather than an entire separate PC.
 
Evil Scooter said:
Reminds me.. I bought AMD and Nvidia very early 2k. Think I've done well on both.
Click to expand...
SnowBeast said:
For the AMD fans. If Big Navi is coming to save the GPU market, where are the leaks? Even Ryzen had leaks in the CPU market from AMD. No manufactures leaked pictures, not a cooler picture, not even a backplate or connector shot. If you are AMD, wouldn't you want to stifle the competition even a little by a "leak" or two?
Click to expand...

I’m not a fan, I genuinely don’t give a fuck about the brand. However I do hold shares. So for damn sure I follow it.

AMD has been super tight on their leaks in recent years. I’ll thank them for Ryzen for ever as it was knowing that that got me into it.

Given Navi is ‘known’, that’s less of a problem. It’s not that hard to extrapolate roughly where they’ll be at. Just a case of any extra sauce over the console version and more importantly, price point. They’ll want some margins given how shit those are on console components.

it’s *much* better when you’re a challenger to stay quiet and shock than overpromote in advance and take a share price ass pounding. Lisa Su is basically a godess in my eyes for knowing this and obviously running amd like a fucking boss for the last few years.

Theres an art to managing supply chain leaks (it’s hard as fuck) and some of them are for damn sure PR (or even ways to get tell the market without *telling* the market) but there is nothing I see that is credible and makes me think “oh wait, is this going to be bullshit”
 
DooKey said:
Nvidia has definitely crafted a nice software ecosystem. It's a value add for sure.
Click to expand...

They got that fact early, CUDA and locking that shit down in the enterprise space has been one of the smartest things a tech company did since the millennium.
 
ChadD said:
The question until benchmarks hit is.... 2x as fast, at general 3D. Or 2x as fast in regard to ray tracing.
I can believe 2x the speed when it comes to ray tracing. of course even with a 2x uplife the question will remain is it even a viable feature on the 3070/60 class cards anyway. Or be enough to justify developers pushing Ray tracing further... if doing so makes the majority of tracing cards choke.

We'll see when some trustworth sites get cards to test. I really am hoping it is a 2x performance gain across the board. If NV has responded to something AMD has cooked and they both deliver something in that range. It will be first time in a long time we have hit a generation that is going to tempt a large influx of upgrading. I just hope it doesn't kill supply and drive up pricing. It would really suck to see AMD better NVs mostly reasonable MSRPs.... and have none of the cards available for anything close to those prices anyway. If true... I imagine the resale market will either dry up or be full of great deals on 2000 and 5700 class hardware.
Click to expand...
Digital Foundary has a review out now on the 3080. He says in his games it is 80% on average faster than the 2080.

 
DooKey said:
Nvidia has definitely crafted a nice software ecosystem. It's a value add for sure.
Click to expand...
And it has quite a bit of application outside of gaming.
odditory said:
They practically remove the need for a dedicated secondary streaming PC.
Click to expand...
You should be able to do it all on a laptop. And not even a gaming laptop, at that; a hypothetical mobile 3060 should be enough to push your typical esports stuff with the settings in check. Add a decent enough mic or just above-average webcam and you're off to the races.

I'm not saying that I would do it or that that's a common use case, but it now should be well within the realm of reason.
 
travm said:
as someone who doesnt spend $600 + on gpu's, this is ok.
Click to expand...
My first in that class was the 1080 Ti that I'm running today. Paid US$700 for a hybrid unit, which was MSRP for the base model, sometime during one of the major mining shortages. Somehow, I was happy to pay that!

Fun part is, this thing's actually more than enough for most 1440p gaming at higher refresh rates so long as settings are kept in check. That, and the 2080Ti at US$1200 being the only real upgrade, has really been what's kept on the 1080Ti.

I think that with Ampere and quite likely with Big Navi (5700XT is already essentially there), 1440p at higher refresh rates and 4k60 should both be more than attainable with the 3070. I agree that that's a good place to be!
 
IdiotInCharge said:
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers. Real-time transcoding with no significant performance loss, real-time noise cancellation for their mics; and then DLSS. Stuff that is extremely useful that has very little to do with brute performance and more to do with developing attentively for end users.
Click to expand...
I've got to say none of that interests me, if it's a bonus then that's fine but it doesn't add any value in my mind.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers.
Click to expand...
So how big of a disparity is that? You seem to have data to share? I would love to hear how that is going to impact the TAM.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers. Real-time transcoding with no significant performance loss, real-time noise cancellation for their mics; and then DLSS. Stuff that is extremely useful that has very little to do with brute performance and more to do with developing attentively for end users.
Click to expand...
None of that crap matters. What's going to separate Nvidia from AMD and consoles is Ray-Tracing performance. Nobody knows how AMD's Ray-Tracing is going to work, and this applies to consoles. I wouldn't be shocked if AMD's Ray-Tracing performance is horrible, like the RTX 2000 series.
 
SnowBeast said:
For the AMD fans. If Big Navi is coming to save the GPU market, where are the leaks? Even Ryzen had leaks in the CPU market from AMD. No manufactures leaked pictures, not a cooler picture, not even a backplate or connector shot. If you are AMD, wouldn't you want to stifle the competition even a little by a "leak" or two? Even Intel has shown pics of its upcoming Xe gaming version next year. Fury, Vega, Navi, Big Navi, Super Mambo 8K killer Navi 3..... Put up or shut up AMD. And even if they do, you know the actual 3080Ti is on the back burner, or possible 3090Ti. Hmmmm. 3080=699 3090=$1499 A lot of room in between for that too happen at the $899-999 price point. I'll say, 3080Ti March-April time frame. Like the old Ti releases.
Click to expand...

I agree AMD should have done something to stifle the Nvidia hype. However, they do things kinda oddly. When we get a lot of leaks, and AMD is trying to hype their new hardware, that is when that generation bombs. Both in CPU and GPU. When AMD keeps no info from getting out at all and is dead quiet, that hardware is always quite good. Seeing the specs of a 3090 I just dont see AMD being able to compete this gen, but the fact they are so quiet leads me to believe AMD's top card may very well bright the fight to the 3080.
 
DukenukemX said:
None of that crap matters.
Click to expand...
The noise-cancellation tech helps pretty much anyone that uses a mic on a computer. I wish I could gift it to some of the people I have to listen to...
DukenukemX said:
What's going to separate Nvidia from AMD and consoles is Ray-Tracing performance.
Click to expand...
That's a big part, though there are certainly detractors of this school of thought ;)
DukenukemX said:
Nobody knows how AMD's Ray-Tracing is going to work, and this applies to consoles. I wouldn't be shocked if AMD's Ray-Tracing performance is horrible, like the RTX 2000 series.
Click to expand...
Based on the total lack of enthusiasm for the Xbox reveal and the focus on SSD performance of all things with Sony, this seems pretty likely. Nvidia has been screaming from the rooftops, and about all we get from AMD is 'yeah, we'll support that...'.

Obviously headline game support is going to be a bigger deal. If AMDs RT support is lackluster but games don't demand it -- gamers don't demand it -- then it won't hurt them much in the marketplace.
FrgMstr said:
So how big of a disparity is that? You seem to have data to share? I would love to hear how that is going to impact the TAM.
Click to expand...
I'd forgotten why Nvidia is such a trigger for you, it's been years, hasn't it?
 
DukenukemX said:
None of that crap matters. What's going to separate Nvidia from AMD and consoles is Ray-Tracing performance. Nobody knows how AMD's Ray-Tracing is going to work, and this applies to consoles. I wouldn't be shocked if AMD's Ray-Tracing performance is horrible, like the RTX 2000 series.
Click to expand...

Performance is certainly the most important consideration but don’t discount features. They are probably more important to the average consumers than they are to us forum warriors. Either way Nvidia knows waaay more about what the average person wants than any of us do.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I'd forgotten why Nvidia is such a trigger for you, it's been years, hasn't it?
Click to expand...

As your attorney I advise you to delete this comment tout de suite. you can't fight City Hall, babycakes.

giphy.gif
 
Last edited:
Due to the GPP debacle I've said several times I'll wait for AMD to have a suitable upgrade to the 1080Ti before I upgrade. If they can match 3080 performance at a comparable price, I'll bite. $1500 is far out of my budget for a video card, so the 3090 isn't relevant to me. The rumored 12GB on Big Navi is a bit of future-proofing, but there will be no surprise if nVidia announces the 16GB 3080 next month to take some wind out of AMD's sails. I can wait another generation or 2 before I care about ray tracing.
 
Iratus said:
I'll play behind Kyle on this one. If Big Navi is not a big chunk faster than than the 2080 Ti, I'll donate $100 to the charity of your choice.
Click to expand...

but you need to clarify your definition of 'big chunk faster'...30%?...40%?
 
DukenukemX said:
None of that crap matters. What's going to separate Nvidia from AMD and consoles is Ray-Tracing performance. Nobody knows how AMD's Ray-Tracing is going to work, and this applies to consoles. I wouldn't be shocked if AMD's Ray-Tracing performance is horrible, like the RTX 2000 series.
Click to expand...
It shouldn’t be too horrible, the code improvements between the old DXR libraries and the new versions cooked into DX12U are pretty big, supposedly the same function calls work up to 30% faster out the gate. They also have 2 years of seeing how it works on NVidia’s hardware to improve upon. My biggest worry is them building the cards on TSMC 7nm, AMD has a lot of stuff on that node and not a lot of time to make them all. Sure Huawei, loosing their slots added some to the pool for sure but I am really worried about supply numbers. AMD is in a tough spot here their supply is going to be heavily constrained and I honestly fear a lot of AMD paper launches this year as they struggle to meet demand. NVidia moving to Samsung’a N8 was a bold move that may have cost them some performance but shaved a lot of costs and allows them a much greater production output. I’m looking forward to AMD’s response, but for some reason when they do their event I expect a lot of talk about their CPU’s, them building up hype for mobile stuff and talking about their partners there. A big emphasis on console gaming, and their PC GPU’s to be a small thing at the end, they will give us a price and probably show some people playing a popular game at 4K with unknown settings and showing it smooth as butter. But I don’t expect them to move large volumes of them because they can’t afford to jeopardize their Lenovo, Sony, Microsoft, or Dell contracts.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
A big disparity, especially when it comes to the inevitable Ampere parts below the 3070, will be the 'extra' stuff Nvidia has been developing for streamers. Real-time transcoding with no significant performance loss, real-time noise cancellation for their mics; and then DLSS. Stuff that is extremely useful that has very little to do with brute performance and more to do with developing attentively for end users.
Click to expand...
I really want a low profile single slot replacement for the 1650, something that doesn’t need external power but still does decent. The 1650 I use in my MAME cabinet doesn’t quite cut it and the refreshes of it all needed a 6 pin.
 
I'll probably snag a 3080 next year, I still don't really play any games that are too much for the 1080ti, so no big rush for me.
 
polonyc2 said:
but you need to clarify your definition of 'big chunk faster'...30%?...40%?
Click to expand...

Well I don't... you've got to be a special kind of douche to parse semantics when you're talking about charity so if I ever did that I'd kick my own ass. It's one of those where "you fuckin' know what a chunk is", people that try and write a contract for a bbq-bet... we know what they are. You don't welch. Ever. Especially with charity on the line. Even ignoring the fact Kyle is known for not exactly tolerating people fucking around ;) So I'll judge what a chunk is (because it's a bet I 'lose' on both sides), and I'll donate accordingly. I'm not gonna have a "welching douche" title on a forum I've been on for 20 years.

However if the 3080 is 60% faster than 2080Ti and so Big Navi isn't at least 40% faster than that 2080Ti, then I'd be stunned, if it's not equivalent or slightly ahead, merely surprised. If the first hypothesis is proven false by actual benchmarks of a 3080, it follow that the second adjusts but we'll all *know* whether AMD succeeded or not and it's not a "well this outlier benchmark has this number ergo blah blah blah"

I am "not uncertain" that NVidia are positioning and pricing because they know they're about to have competition for the first time in a long time. I'm buying a 3090 on Day 1, but I could not be happier if AMD get back in the game as it's good for everyone and I don't care about the badge. It's about how [H]ard something is. I would thank either Jensen or Lisa almost as much as Jeff Bezos if I ever met them so I've got no favorites.

Of course I don't put it past them to fuck up the drivers and end up not getting to a competitive realisation of that hardware for 18 months, it's not like they don't have history at that but thems your risks :)

Anyway, this is skating the topic boundary enough.
 
EniGmA1987 said:
I agree AMD should have done something to stifle the Nvidia hype. However, they do things kinda oddly. When we get a lot of leaks, and AMD is trying to hype their new hardware, that is when that generation bombs. Both in CPU and GPU. When AMD keeps no info from getting out at all and is dead quiet, that hardware is always quite good. Seeing the specs of a 3090 I just dont see AMD being able to compete this gen, but the fact they are so quiet leads me to believe AMD's top card may very well bright the fight to the 3080.
Click to expand...
AMD already had an impact. The 3080/90 are basically Titans. There's only one larger chip and that's a compute chip. Going over 5000 cus for mainstream isn't something Nvidia has ever done. So basically I think big Navi is going to compete with the 3070. It might punch above but it won't compete with 80/90 as those have way too many CUs.

If and I do mean if it competes with 3080 you'll see why nVidia blew out the power spec.
 
kac77 said:
AMD already had an impact. The 3080/90 are basically Titans. There's only one larger chip and that's a compute chip. Going over 5000 cus for mainstream isn't something Nvidia has ever done. So basically I think big Navi is going to compete with the 3070. It might punch above but it won't compete with 80/90 as those have way too many CUs.
Click to expand...

The Xbox series X gpu reaches 2080S levels while 3070 is around 2080 Ti performance. Yet you think a full discrete Navi 2x will barely punch above an Xbox APU? Lmao.
 
5150Joker said:
The Xbox series X gpu reaches 2080S levels while 3070 is around 2080 Ti performance. Yet you think a full discrete Navi 2x will barely punch above an Xbox APU? Lmao.
Click to expand...
There's a pretty big jump between 3070 and 3080 it's hasn't been this big of a difference in a very long time.
 
5150Joker said:
The Xbox series X gpu reaches 2080S levels while 3070 is around 2080 Ti performance. Yet you think a full discrete Navi 2x will barely punch above an Xbox APU? Lmao.
Click to expand...

Isn't the "Xbox GPU is equal to a 2080S" rumor based solely on Gears of War? In that case with it Microsoft said something like, "It only took minimal work"...
 
Bankie said:
Isn't the "Xbox GPU is equal to a 2080S" rumor based solely on Gears of War? In that case with it Microsoft said something like, "It only took minimal work"...
Click to expand...

Equivalent to 2080S with Ray Tracing on

We don't know the pure rasterization performance (with Ray Tracing off)
 
5150Joker said:
The Xbox series X gpu reaches 2080S levels while 3070 is around 2080 Ti performance. Yet you think a full discrete Navi 2x will barely punch above an Xbox APU? Lmao.
Click to expand...
Without any benchmarks of a RDNA2 GPU, we can't begin to figure out the performance of the Xbox Series X. We have tflops as the only metric, and that hasn't proven to be reliable to determine GPU performance. Big Navi will be faster but how much faster?
 
Bankie said:
Isn't the "Xbox GPU is equal to a 2080S" rumor based solely on Gears of War? In that case with it Microsoft said something like, "It only took minimal work"...
Click to expand...

The claim was being made before the Gears test, Gears just backed up the claims.

But there is nothing special about 52 CU RDNA2 being approx equal to 2080. Heck 52 CU RDNA1 should easily do that, given that 40 CU RDNA1 is approx equal to 2070.

So really this is no sign yet that RDNA2 is significantly better than RDNA1, except for the addition of RT and other DX12 ultimate features.
 
Marees said:
Equivalent to 2080S with Ray Tracing on

We don't know the pure rasterization performance (with Ray Tracing off)
Click to expand...

Where did you see this comparison? I thought all the performance estimates of the Xbox were on raster performance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top