AMD RX 5700 XT card is better than a GTX 1080 at ray tracing in new Crytek demo

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by kac77, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Gawd

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    This is what Nvidia actually said back in 2018. Nobody has made the claim that has you so upset.

    "To be sure, many factors contribute to the overall graphics quality and performance of ray tracing. In fact, because ray tracing is so computationally intensive, it’s often used for rendering those areas or objects in a scene that benefit the most in visual quality and realism from the technique, while the rest of the scene is rendered using rasterization. Rasterization can still deliver excellent graphics quality.

    All of this will give game developers, and others, the ability to bring ray-tracing techniques to their work to create more realistic reflections, shadows and refractions."


    You mean the definition used by 2-3 people in this thread for the past few days. The actual definition of raytracing has nothing to do with whether it is combined with other techniques to render an image.

    Of course there won't be a "fully" raytraced modern game anytime soon. But nobody has made that claim, not even Nvidia. But feel free to keep beating up on that strawman.
     
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  2. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It is Real Ray Tracing. That pretty much goes without saying, which is why I don't have to add Real to every usage of Ray Tracing. It accelerates Real Ray Tracing software like Blender, It does Real Ray Tracing for all the effects in Quake 2, and it does Real Ray Tracing for some of the effects in several modern games.

    You have not presented any kind REAL argument to the contrary.
     
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  3. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    Ray traced imaging has no rasterization. Go make up your own definition. Casting a few rays to enhance rasterization is not a ray traced image.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  4. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    It appears to me that everyone else, including the hardware and software teams, are on the same page and you are the one making up your own definition. You’ve provided nothing to the contrary.
     
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  5. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    Comparison
    Rasterization vs. Ray Tracing
    • Definition: Rasterization
    Given a set of rays and a primitive, efficiently
    compute the subset of rays hitting the primitive
    Uses 2D grid as an index structure for efficiency

    • Definition: Ray Tracing
    Given a ray and set of primitives, efficiently compute the subset of primitives hit by the ray
    Uses a (hierarchical) 3D spatial index for efficiency

    https://my.eng.utah.edu/~cs6965/papers/a1-slusallek.pdf
     
  6. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    There's some next level Nvidia hate in this thread for sure.

    Your'e right, would be nice if AMD caught up with Nv so we no longer had to deal with all the hand wringing and hair pulling.

    I'd certainly be interested in a reasonably priced RT capable AMD GPU.
     
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  7. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Gawd

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    That’s true. Now show us where anyone has claimed otherwise.
     
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  8. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Gawd

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    Yeah once that happens we can move on from this “real raytracing” nonsense onto arguing about something more productive like who has “better raytracing” lol.
     
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  9. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    Rtx and DXR has rasterization. Therefore it is not ray tracing is it?
     
  10. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    rasterization +++
     
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  11. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    I don’t know why you are acting like it’s all or nothing. You can have rasterization and “true” real time ray tracing at the same time for different effects in the same scene. This is how it’s going to be for a long, long time.
     
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  12. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    No you cannot have it both ways. I just love how you intermingled rasterization and ray tracing. Pretty soon those two terms will mean the same thing at his rate. Try and Learn the difference and use them in the right context. At best rtx and DXR are hybrids.
     
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  13. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Gawd

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    Why are you stuck on this notion that raytracing cant be combined with anything. Where is that coming from?

    DXR is a pure raytracing api. It is part of DirectX12 which allows DXR to be combined with existing rasterization techniques available in DirectX. It’s really not that complicated.
     
  14. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's obvious brand zealotry. Every thread he started since joining has been pro-AMD, neg-everyone else.

    NVidia RTX has to be fake garbage, because a real NVidia advance, doesn't fit his brand narrative.

    If AMD had RT first, he would be selling the opposite tale, because the merits of the technology don't matter, only the brand matters.
     
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  15. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Gawd

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    Yeah that much is clear but I was still hoping to get some sort of meaningful technical discussion out of it. Oh well.
     
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  16. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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  17. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yep, very obvious indeed :rolleyes:

    There are plenty of Ray tracing programs that do REAL or by definition ray tracing. Nvidia didn't add 15% die space and magically can ray trace in real time - :ROFLMAO: outdoing ware houses of CPU's/GPU';s (render farm) oh on one chip. I believe some actually believe that.

    VRay uses RTX to to speed up calculations, a whole 40% increase to do the limited subset of GPU ray tracing it can do. When the hardware actually does ray tracing by what has been defined for over 30 years or longer, actually using rays of light so to speak to light the scene it is not night and day different. In other words 2x 1080Ti's will outperform 1x 2080Ti with RTX in VRay for rendering a ray trace scene - no magic - just a lot of false marketing claim - real time ray tracing - nope.

    If Nvidia did not take credit for something they still havn't done yet, ok. Nvidia is enhancing rasterization with a more accurate model is all.

    Bottom line is does the new tech make gaming better -> At this point that is not clear
     
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  18. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    That's your bottom line/opinion.

    Nothing else. Nothing.
     
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  19. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Nvidia hyjacking a term which has been clearly defined for decades, kinda like their GPP program wanting to hijack well establish Brand names to represent their products. Anyways. Nvidia claiming the holy grail of graphics and then charge a super exorbitant amount of price increase. Unfortunately others will see that level of success and will try to duplicate it. Nvidia motto is more inline with "If you can fool a person out of a dollar, your a fool not to do it".
     
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  20. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Why? You want more?
     
  21. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And NVidia RTX SW support is just in the alpha-beta stage of accelerating ray tracing in these "real" raytracing programs.

    Improvements will only increase as developers figure out how to best apply it.

    But so far it is looking VERY promising (Lower is better, Purple is RTX support). 2060 Super is about twice as faster as 1080 Ti.
    BlenderRTX.JPG



    NVidia didn't take credit for something they haven't done.

    What they have done is accelerate Ray Tracing, giving Developers another tool for their arsenal, so they can add some Real Time Ray Tracing effects to modern games.
     
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  22. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just to note that the 40% figure you state, is depending on the scene. Performance gains can go from less than 10% to more than 170% vs CUDA. BTW the CUDA renderer is already pretty fast compared to CPU only. Also this is the first implementation and developers promise performance gains down the road.
     
  23. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Thank you for that, so that looks to be a 2x fold increase and agree RT effects or use in games.

    OptiX, this would be valid for same quality result, plus Nvidia is doing the normal software support that AMD should learn from. Some of the big boys are involved.
    https://developer.nvidia.com/optix

    On AMD side is ProRender which is not too bad without the more dedicated hardware it will be over shadowed rather quickly:
    https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/radeon-prorender

    As for real time ray tracing, on the spot virtually instantly for smooth frame rates - that has not been achieved - RT techniques or methods, so far somewhat limited, to enhance rasterization lighting effects yes. Just some of us cringe at times with marketing speak, twists, over exaggerations etc. Top that off to make more money in less than an upfront way is just wrong in my books and to me Nvidia crossed the line in that respect with RTX. Does not mean the tech is not good, I think it is a very good first step and look forward to the next version as well as what AMD has. My next card will most likely will have more dedicated hardware for RT. The best card wins as long as it is priced reasonably with what performance it gives.
     
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  24. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    AMD demo with Blender and new Hybrid mode which is rather quick - maybe call it RTX mode where it is using rasterization with Vulkan ;);). No twists here, just flat out to the point explanation by AMD on what is happening.



    As a quick note, which is a little bit funny, Nvidia Pascal cards does ProRender faster than the Vega cards - I give AMD a lot of credit developing, working with developers on this and hopefully they up their game to match Nvidia if not surpass it with software support but really appreciate that it is not limited to only AMD GPU's. Now I am not sure AMD will jump into support RTX cards hardware with this, probably not but if DXR is the open standard and Nvidia supports the DXR standard then it should work with RTX hardware for RT as well if AMD in the future goes that route.
     
  25. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    BTW that blender demo, by your account, is not raytracing either. :rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D
     
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  26. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    Nobody said it was.
    ;)
     
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  27. crazycrave

    crazycrave Gawd

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    Here is RX 5700 with 3700x running World of Tanks RT on in 1080p Ultra

     
  28. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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  29. kac77

    kac77 2[H]4U

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    I took a small break from this thread di6e to the holidays. But I'm at least glad the conversation has continued.

    The point I've stated and many others is at least getting people think. Rasterization + RT is an hybrid solution. Period. Full stop.

    Because of this taking really old low fidelity games and adding say global Illumination is really the lowest form of Ray tracing. This is basically what Nvidia cards can do right now. But well any DX12 card can do this.

    The issue is no one has pushed RT that hard because you can simulate global illumination via rasterization to come very close to what a ray traced hybrid model will do. That's why no one's really pushing it.

    nvidia jumped in and pushed an architecture that while it does speed up ray tracing operations it's not doing anything that's really changing the game for what is possible via rasterization alone.

    We are at least 3 generations away from meaningful Ray tracing because if we were taking nvidias architecture to the place of where it would need to be let's say 40% rt vs rasterization scene it would need somewhere in the ballpark of 4x the cores it has now. There's no getting around this unless Nvidia does something magical with it's next architecture.

    This is not me hating on nVidia. What it is is getting the conversation started for how ray traced scenes are measured in terms of performance.

    No reviewer thus far has highlighted this distinction.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 12:21 PM
  30. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    Has any AMD card had a better score than any RTX card besides maybe the non Super 2060 in this test?
     
  31. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    Before you blow your load, wait for official support and big Navi.
     
  32. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    I thought it was a legit question. Why so abrasive?
     
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  33. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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    Sorry, forgot to take my meds. Answering loaded questions makes me ill.

    :sick:
     
  34. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    With you, everything is loaded.

    I really just wanted to know, I'm seriously interested in all things RT these days.
     
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  35. Mega6

    Mega6 2[H]4U

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  36. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    It’s been a while since I read about this demo. I don’t think they even incorporated the RT cores yet on the RTX cards but they eventually will IIRC.

    I did laugh at title when I first saw this thread. Comparing current gen vs a 1080 which is a card that launched May 2016, slow down there, don’t set your sights too high lol.
     
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  37. crazycrave

    crazycrave Gawd

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    Thanks .. I was trying to remove a foot print as Relive is messing with my clocks on 3700x as I can hit 4.425Ghz is what I was testing with stock cooler .. World of Tanks RT has more cores yet to use if they want to good there .. I really have no other data but I would think the XT would be more with the extra SP's on board .
     
  38. amenx

    amenx Limp Gawd

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    Not sure if this thread was posted as intended. A 3 1/2 year old last gen Nvidia card (gtx1080) not performing in RT as good as latest AMD card 5700xt? Is that it??
     
  39. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah, that's pretty much where we're at.
     
  40. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Problem is the original story was clickbait, and OP for choosing to highlight clickbait.
     
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