AMD, Roy Taylor, the Nano, and the Press @ [H]

SRB

n00b
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
7
Say what you want, The attitude difference between the paper launches of the nano vs the story on the nito kind of tells me there's a bit more than just fact based reviews. I can't remember a more gushing evaluation of something that's actually still short of a paper launch. I've never owned an AMD/ATI card, just where my upgrade cycles wound up, but it seems to me for a version 1.0 of some brand new tech, AMD wasn't that far off the mark. And shortages of new tech and teething pains are nothing new. This is hardly a failure marking the end of AMD.

Not to say the AMD rep wasn't a joke either It's obvious overreacting is not in short supply anywhere.
 

Cobalt35

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,166
Or, maybe I'm right and the truth hurts?

Look, my proof is that AMD, freaking AMD is pissed at [H], not just some random poster. [H] just needs to scale back on the pointed adjectives and let the chips fall where they may.
Can you provide us with examples of the things you speak of? Or is it just rhetoric? Or even worse is it "AMD is mad so there must be something there"?
 

pcgeekesq

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
1,399
Removing the custom case build with the Nano seems like a bit of an overreach.

I disagree. HardOCP has no obligation to post AMD-sponsored promotional efforts. Running forums costs money, you know?

They were probably doing it as a courtesy to AMD. I'd say that courtesy was not merited.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
54,270
Or, maybe I'm right and the truth hurts?

Look, my proof is that AMD, freaking AMD is pissed at [H], not just some random poster. [H] just needs to scale back on the pointed adjectives and let the chips fall where they may.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Xero717

Weaksauce
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
89
Man.... this is some [H]ardcore drama... I've been reading this site for years but never have I seen the manchild ranting this feud has brought to the table.

Let's all be honest here, AMD is done. Roy Taylor-like thinking isn't going to harm them anymore than they've already harmed themselves.

Just take pride in knowing when it all burns down, you'll be within driving distance to piss on the ashes. Until then, keep posting the good shit we've all come to expect from [H] and carry on!
 

Nenu

[H]ardened
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
20,296
Be done with AMD Roy. Make him walk the plank!

He is presenting the internal attitude of AMD to us, thats why he hasnt had his head torn off.
He says the things he does in the way that he does because he feels he has the backing of his peers.
 

Solhokuten

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
1,464
I knew this day was coming. I've been seeing the writing on the wall for awhile now.

My POV is this, I've never had to have the bleeding edge of speed when it came to video cards. AMD was cheaper and I was fine with that, and happy with the performance, even if Nvidia was a bit faster.

My biggest complaint was always the drivers. There was ALWAYS an issue I had, here and there. Some issues just never went away, like the blue screens from video acceleration being on in flash. I had countless blue screens over that.

The deal breaker for me is when AMD moved away from having the cheaper priced value oriented video card and to me, erasing the real value in the brand. A lot of people felt this way. When Nvidia clearly has better drivers a lot more often and higher performance most of the time, but the same pricing. People are going to go with Nvidia. It's a no brainer. I have and I am sure countless other former AMD users have as well.

AMD has created the perfect storm for themselves. No HDMI 2.0 created a lot of problems for a lot of people that put money into expensive displays. Charging higher prices and erasing the brands friendly pricing. The biggiest scare for me personally is the huge amount of turn-over at AMD. A lot of the front office have been bailing out over the last few years. That's hard not to notice. When you add it all up, it's just not a company I am comfortable doing business with.

What have I learned from all of this? It's better to pay a little bit more for better performance and quality and especially the end user experience. Something AMD just doesn't have.

Honestly, I think we are very lucky to have Nvidia.

Agreed, though I've never had any issues as severe as BSODs. My issues have generally been with Crossfire. I'm hoping AMD makes a come back. My first PC builds back in the Duron days were AMD and I'll always have a soft spot for them. That being said, AMD really needs to step up their game. I used to buy AMD fairly often when it came to video cards, but for the last 4 years or so Nvidia has had the better Value IMHO.
 

pcgeekesq

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
1,399
Right or wrong, it seems [H] has lost a MAJOR computer hardware manufacturer (AMD) for the foreseeable future. Spin this however you want, it's still not good for this site............

What is good for the site is maintaining integrity.
The cost of purchasing cards to review is trivial by comparison.
 

f0d

n00b
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
4
LONG time reader - 0 posts though (im quite happy lurking)

Kyle and everyone else here at [H] please keep up the noBS comments and editorials, its the reason i come here to [H] - always give your opinions (whether strongly negative or positive) and stay unbiased (never seen any bias - just straight out facts and opinions on those facts)

just wanted to let you know i think you guys do great work and to keep it up :)
 

bAMtan2

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Messages
1,480
the frequency at which amd releases new enthusiast products indicates that this news is not a big deal. see you in 5 years for their next product launch
 

HOOfan_1

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
503
Say what you want, The attitude difference between the paper launches of the nano vs the story on the nito kind of tells me there's a bit more than just fact based reviews. I can't remember a more gushing evaluation of something that's actually still short of a paper launch.

This is where the Philip J. Fry "not sure if serious" meme picture goes

The Nito was invented as a joke by Kyle
 

Amaroth

Gawd
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
673
I've been reading [H]ardocp since 98-00. Far too long to actually remember a precise date. The only bias I have ever seen [H] display is bias and loyalty to its readers. Ive seen praise for 3dfx, Ati, Nvidia, Amd, Intel and numerous other brands and products. Ive also seen [H] turn around and point out the flaws and fuck ups. [H]ardocp will always be my #1 source of information due to their integrity and knowledge.
 

chenw

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
3,977
Yep. You guys should have "piled-on" during the 970/3.5 controversy and this makes Roy MADDD!!!11!!

What controversy?

The marketing lies or the performance issues that HardOCP already had pointed out during their GTX 970 reviews BEFORE the issue was actually blown open?

The controversy does not retroactively degrade any performance the reviewers saw in game play. It's not like the card has a programmed self destruct button saying "If my memory segmentation is ever found out, I will destroy the GPU core". Any issues that would arise from the memory segmentation is already part of [H]'s review, the reviewers just initially didn't know the reasons why (they had assumed, IIRC, caused by the smaller memory bandwidth compared to the 980).
 

polive

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
1,283
All I want to say is, when the "reviews" get published, look closely at what is reported, what is covered, and the comparisons made. I think how the clock speed operates, and what the real-world clock speeds are might be glossed over in some reviews, or even incorrect if not tested right.

Something we do, that I know not everyone does, is test cards after the card as "warmed up" while gaming. Typically 15+ minutes in from gaming the GPU will have warmed up and clock speeds will be different from just testing the card right out of the gate in a short benchmark. A short benchmark is going to show higher results compared to running the card for thirty minutes and then playing a game. The clocks will be different, the results will be different. We test cards after they have gone through this warm up period, which takes extra time, but it is worth it cause you get real-world results.

I think some points will not be made about how Fury X (also a small card) wiill fit into the same cases as the Nano. Granted, you need a space for the rad and fan, but most SFF cases, even ITX, have room for this. I have seen Fury X ITX builds on youtube and the Internet. It is possible. I want to see this talked about. mATX cases for sure can house Fury X.

Finally, the price being the same as the Fury X, I have a feeling this will be downplayed. I also have a feeling availability might be downplayed.

We shall see, but it will be interesting to see if things are left out, downplayed, swept under the rug, and just not discussed when it comes to Nano in the reviews to come. These are all important factors.

"Fair" reviews would keep these topics in-mind and discuss them in reviews.

I worked for AMD for a few months testing vid cards in various configurations, generally on open benches, not cased, just open horizontal mobos in most test scenarios. Never thought "warming up" a component was worthy of anything. How is that a thing?
 

Nenu

[H]ardened
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
20,296
I worked for AMD for a few months testing vid cards in various configurations, generally on open benches, not cased, just open horizontal mobos in most test scenarios. Never thought "warming up" a component was worthy of anything. How is that a thing?

Cards throttle more as temp rises.
It can also reveal instabilities
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
54,270
Just take pride in knowing when it all burns down, you'll be within driving distance to piss on the ashes. Until then, keep posting the good shit we've all come to expect from [H] and carry on!

Hehe, many thanks for the kind words.


This is where the Philip J. Fry "not sure if serious" meme picture goes

The Nito was invented as a joke by Kyle

I really thought that was the last we would be saying about this whole damn deal, otherwise I would not have been making Nito wisecracks.

I worked for AMD for a few months testing vid cards in various configurations, generally on open benches, not cased, just open horizontal mobos in most test scenarios. Never thought "warming up" a component was worthy of anything. How is that a thing?

Lots of cards throttle after the cooling systems on the cards become saturated.
 

chenw

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
3,977
I worked for AMD for a few months testing vid cards in various configurations, generally on open benches, not cased, just open horizontal mobos in most test scenarios. Never thought "warming up" a component was worthy of anything. How is that a thing?

It holds a lot more scientific weight than running it from cold, a warmed up GPU represents a more accurate operating environment than running it cold.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
54,270
warming it up became a thing with the radeon 290(x) reference cards. Once they hit their 95c limit which they were guaranteed to do the card would throttle a good 15-20% from 1000mhz to around 800-850mhz. So had to run the card for ~5min before recording results. A lot of benchmarks used to run for ~5min then stop. they would do that throttle less you changed fan profile and forced it to 100%. As you said when you did the job it was on open test bench which most review sites use, take that issue put it in a case with most likely a lot less then perfect air flow and see how it works out.

Yep.....just like when you are actually gaming. :)
 

bigdogchris

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
18,603
Nice write up on what's going on. We all know what AMD's unwritten definition of fair is, but I'd like to see Roy stumble through an actual explanation and evidence of reviews which he deems "unfair".
 
Last edited:

polive

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
1,283
We did run benchmarks constantly throughout the day, I just never thought of the warming process in a closed case because I personally did not use one as a quality engineer. I was told on day one to build a machine to benchmark on. Wasn't given a case. I tested for driver quality and to see if improvements were made or not. I made a LOT of spreadsheets.
 

StaticShoes

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
216
Enthusiasts build PCs of all different sizes, shapes, colors. Some people want powerful SFF LAN party rigs, others want nice HTPCs, and some want a huge beast of a desktop machine they can marvel at. [H] has readers and forum members from all the above mentioned types of enthusiasts. In my opinion, anyone who really cares about what's inside their PC is an enthusiast, even if it's comprised of older hardware. So in my mind, for AMD to believe the Nano isn't relevant to [H] readers, is just ridiculous. I know, I know, this paragraph is off topic, sorry.

On topic, AMD_Roy needs a .gif - Open mouth, Insert foot. He just seems like the type that breaks awkward silences by saying something to make situations worse. I think he would fit well into a South Park episode.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
38
What controversy?

The marketing lies or the performance issues that HardOCP already had pointed out during their GTX 970 reviews BEFORE the issue was actually blown open?

The controversy does not retroactively degrade any performance the reviewers saw in game play. It's not like the card has a programmed self destruct button saying "If my memory segmentation is ever found out, I will destroy the GPU core". Any issues that would arise from the memory segmentation is already part of [H]'s review, the reviewers just initially didn't know the reasons why (they had assumed, IIRC, caused by the smaller memory bandwidth compared to the 980).

Oh come on. Don't do that!

Look, I was only pointing out that there was a controversy RE: 970 (and it was a controversy; whether it was caused by unfair marketing campaign on behalf of AMD or legitimate grievances by the public, team Green did issue a statement to quell the public outrage)...that's all. I understand fully that there was no performance degradation of said GPU. And also, In my humble opinion, I thought this site was a bit muted in regards to the 970 at that time. I have never accused this site for having Green envy...ever.

I don't want to start a fight here over dead issues. I hate the AMD vs. nVidia crap. I hate it even more than The State of Texas. Really!

Hey, I see that you have a SS X-850.
See, we're already on common ground!
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
54,270
I talked to AMD earlier and gave some specifics as to what I wanted to see done on the personal front. Roy just called with a moderator and apologized for our exchange this morning and explained that the "fair review" thing was really not in context. He said that was truly not his message that unfair reviews were done. I asked Roy to apologize to Tech Report, TPU, and the community in writing. I was told all this would happen or already has.

The fact is at the least AMD has handled this whole thing horribly and its current PR department needs some real leadership to keep it focused. AMD PR might as well be chickens with its head cut off now days....
 

Brackle

Old Timer
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Messages
8,278

Brent_Justice

Moderator
Joined
Apr 17, 2000
Messages
17,755
We did run benchmarks constantly throughout the day, I just never thought of the warming process in a closed case because I personally did not use one as a quality engineer. I was told on day one to build a machine to benchmark on. Wasn't given a case. I tested for driver quality and to see if improvements were made or not. I made a LOT of spreadsheets.

I'm surprised this is news to you, and testers at AMD. It was the 290X series itself which spawned the focus on warming cards up to evaluate. The 290X on its reference cooler would start out at a high frequency and over time throttle back as much as 200MHz after gaming for 15-30 minutes. It could not maintain its 1GHz advertised speed. This is what prompted AMD to specify an "Up To" clock speed. It worded the clock speed incorrectly from the beginning, confusing people and creating the whole GPU throttling backlash.

Even NVIDIA GPUs will start off at at a high GPU Boost speed for the first 5 minutes of gaming, and then fall off to a consistent GPU clock speed.

If you run a benchmark from a cold start, and the benchmark is only 5 minutes you are only testing the high-end of clock speed. If you leave the card gaming for 30 minutes, and re-test, you'll find the results different.

This is for both AMD and NVIDIA GPUs. Gaming over time affects the consistent clock speed on GPUs. The fact this isn't common knowledge, and tested correctly, worries me. It is something to think about in all video card reviews, how they are tested, matters.
 

Weenis

I said WEENIS, not...
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
4,807
What's mind blowing is, instead of saying "Hey, you know what.. you've been a supporter of some of our technologies (eyefinity, duh) and provide fair and quality reviews, I'm going to make sure you get a card for review"... he went with the douchey response that proves they're trying to cherry pick reviewers. His only other option would have been to just keep his face shut.

Underhanded practices like this have no place in this industry. Doing crap like this will harm them far more than protecting their stock prices a few points, because you can be sure people will be bitching if their cards performance doesn't match reviews. And we all know the supply problems mean that the majority of those pricey cards aren't sold in the first batch.
 

pcgeekesq

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
1,399
http://techreport.com/news/29011/updated-amd-vp-explains-nano-exclusion-apologizes
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Someone Higher up I think Chewed Roy out.

Knowledgeable and principled tech journalism 1, AMD 0.

AMD needs to understand who reads sites like HardOCP and The TechReport. We're not idiots.
E.g.: I was a microprocessor architect at a Fortune 500 firm for many years. Now I am an attorney. I have read HardOCP almost every day since ... last century sometime? LOL.
Getting old, starting to forget stuff.
 

Kor

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
2,175
Right or wrong, it seems [H] has lost a MAJOR computer hardware manufacturer (AMD) for the foreseeable future. Spin this however you want, it's still not good for this site............

There is this thing called money which allows you obtain many things, including hardware.
 

Nenu

[H]ardened
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
20,296
All this and the card isnt even released yet lol.
Well done for eventually forcing a decent response.
The rest of their conduct remains to be seen.
 

Arbit3r

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
308
I'm surprised this is news to you, and testers at AMD. It was the 290X series itself which spawned the focus on warming cards up to evaluate. The 290X on its reference cooler would start out at a high frequency and over time throttle back as much as 200MHz after gaming for 15-30 minutes. It could not maintain its 1GHz advertised speed. This is what prompted AMD to specify an "Up To" clock speed. It worded the clock speed incorrectly from the beginning, confusing people and creating the whole GPU throttling backlash.

Even NVIDIA GPUs will start off at at a high GPU Boost speed for the first 5 minutes of gaming, and then fall off to a consistent GPU clock speed.
On nvidia side they would throttle a little but it wasn't near as much. Plus nvidia did have a base clock the card wouldn't run below.
 

haste.

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,651
Wow. Kyle 1 - amd 0. Even tech report is chalking it up to this "rant" - do know that Roy now truly hates you with every bit of his heart lol
 

Brent_Justice

Moderator
Joined
Apr 17, 2000
Messages
17,755
On nvidia side they would throttle a little but it wasn't near as much. Plus nvidia did have a base clock the card wouldn't run below.

Yes, but the point is, they start off at a different clock speed then they end up at, after spending time gaming. A lot of tests from other sites are done with short benchmarks. If you do this, especially from a cold start, the results will not reflect what gamers actually experience out of the card while gaming for more than 15 minutes. It is imperative to game on the card for 15 minutes and then do your tests, absolutely important, else your results will be inflated. This is important for AMD and NV GPUs, and especially cards that are specifically capped via thermal/power limits, like the Nano.
 
Top