AMD Releases more Carrizo Details: AMD's ISSCC 2015 Presentation

Discussion in 'AMD Processors' started by cageymaru, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    It could be the best chip ever.

    But will it translate into a great range of quality products people can actually buy off the shelf with comparable features and prices to the good Intel based stuff?

    This is the reality gap right here -

    An AMD chip sitting in a fab -------and we have to get to--------> Quality AMD laptop in Bestbuy outperforming and outselling the Intel alternative.

    What will be more likely is -

    An AMD chip sitting in a fab ------> Thousands of AMD chips sitting in storage ------> Nasty ultra cheap plastic laptop with 1366x768 screens and 500GB 5400rpm HDDs tucked away in a clearance corner.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  2. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    Realistic view? Realistic is the FACT that there is virtually no perceived difference for most users. It is not realistic to use the likely less than 5% that would actual notice the difference because of their workload. It is this perpetual skewed view that is unrealistic. Benchmarks stress the components to a highly unlikely point that no real workload will generally push, again for most users.

    AMDs state has precious little to do with their performance and more to do with other factors like: Intel and their contra-revenue that has flooded the channels to a virtual dead-lock. Or that most review sites tend to favor Intel and Nvidia to the point of unrealistic and often times intentionally biased reviews. If you wish for more detail than I will gladly oblige with definitive references from the past 2 years. But most here with the knowledge they have already know, just prefer rather spreading the ignorance.
     
  3. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    So you think this is all AMDs fault? I have seen the industry in the last 2 years change to a very ugly and down-right immoral entitiy. But none of what you said changes the fact that AMD has a definite competitor to Intel to the point that many think it beats Intel in some parts: namely hardware h.265 support , where Intel does not have.

    From what you state it is the OEMs that are to blame, so where is the hate in these posts for them. All I can see is the hate on AMD like they made the decision in the final product.
     
  4. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Then what magical happening is going to happen to change all this?

    Nothing really.

    You may as well pack up and go home chap. It's going to be a slow and painful death otherwise.:(

    The whole AMD situation right now reminds me of the last days of the Third Reich, sure they have some 'super weapons' on the drawing board or prototypes that are maybe revolutionary but the armies of Nvidia and Intel are just streets away from their bunker.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  5. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Blame is not the issue. Is the point I make the most likely outcome?
     
  6. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    how about instead of deferring you actual make comments on the Facts as I stated. This is the issue and why I feel forums don't do as much good as they could. We could make the difference but as you keep doing, spreading vague references and slanted views, nothing will change. Reviewers aren't even remotely interested in facts and discovery, but rather pandering to the ignorant masses that have little to no real knowledge of the facts. I have seen far to many posters like yourself that do the deferring and selective views to garner their opinion as some kind of epiphany.

    But if that is how you wish to play then so be it.
     
  7. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Okay so how do you see the next 12 months going for AMD?

    A magical rejuvenation or much the same?

    I'm interested to know.
     
  8. griff30

    griff30 I Lower the Boom!

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    12 months?
    Nothing. They have already said no new desktop chips.
    After that I'd have to shake my magic 8 ball.
     
  9. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah I think you can split us AMD fans into two groups.

    1. Realists

    2. Fantasists

    Realists believe that AMD should basically man up. Quit whining about the past and Intel. Quit messing around with silly side projects and concentrate on their core products (the ones that sell). Start marketing themselves and their products properly (use the money that would be wasted on pet projects). Start making their own line of quality tablets/laptops etc, to properly showcase their perfectly decent chips in, because let's face it, hardly anyone else is. If a job's worth doing... However, we kind of know this will never happen which is depressing.

    Fantasists believe that AMD should keep looking back wistfully at the socket 939 era. Keep whining at Intel and everyone else for trying to push them out. Keep working on distracting projects that never amount to anything tangible or profitable. Keep on hiding themselves from the consumer market and forget about marketing. Don't get involved in any new market that could expand their chips into other products. That by doing nothing AMD's chips will magically appear in dozens of wonderful products that will outnumber Intel's on the store shelves by 10:1. Oh and that of course AMD will have some brilliant competitive chips just coming out over the horizon...just you wait...they will...next time...it will be different! I admire their childlike optimism.


    At the end of the day you just have to make the best of what you've got.
     
  10. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Then we are in agreement!

    When performance is "good enough," and you have no other "killer app" left to push NEW sales, then you find other angles to increase value, or try to expand to other markets, or your sales groth will stagnate and ultimately fall.

    Intel has done two things in the last two years to (1) add value to their high-end, high-margin chips by releasing Haswell, which combined FIVR, OS sleep improvements, and new minimum OEM platform specs to improve battery life of all notebooks and tablets by 50%, opening the door for truly useful 2-in-1s like Surface et-al. They simultaneously (2) tried to expand into the low-end tablet market using contra-revenue, because like you said, if the performance is "the same ," then it's just a matter of price changing the design win to Intel.

    They've backed-up this push with a targeted advertising campaign to convince users they NEED THIS, even though like you said there is "virtually no perceived difference for most users." It's all about generating upgrade sales by making people want something they otherwise would not, by hiding the performance and dressing up the product with other thingies.

    Nvidia has done two things in the last two years to (1) add value to their mobile discrete GPUs by immensely improving efficiency, which is the name of the game when you are trying to shove it inside a notebook (lower temps = longer component lifetime, and better battery life for the same game quality settings). First Nvidia released the 750 Ti = 860M, which performed the same as the top-end R9 M290X at a fraction of the power, and Nvidia countered the release of Tonga R9 M295X by the faster and lower-power GTX 970M, and then destroyed the entire notebook world with the GTX 980M. They have since rounded-out their lineup with the GTX 960M.

    And number (2) has been them attempting to find a growth sector in Android by offering a high-end gaining experience, and trying to create a console platform. They've released three products in the last two years focused on this, helped to port tons of high-end titles to Android in the hoped that they can create demand for higher GPU performance in an APU (so they can also get more design wins, because their SoCis also available for sale to third-parties).
    )

    What has AMD been doing? APU Front: sitting around waiting for Kaveri mobile to be available, and since it was so late it got into maybe a handful of designs. They also did a terrible job advertising the existence of Mullins, which was embarassing because of how much they managed to improve the platform over Temash. They wasted all that money pushing Kabini desktop AM1, when they could have waited and used it on a real performer. Small companies like AMD have to pick their battles.

    And on the mobile GPU side of things? Well, they've been shipping an HD 7850 (downclocked 7870) since 2012. First they called it the HD 7970M, and then they called it the R9 M290X. During this same time period, Nvidia was able to ship a full-enabled GTX 680 downclocked to 670 speed as their top-end part, so you know who won that one.

    They finally, after all these years have Tonga low-enough power to ship 7950-equivilant performance in the R9 M295X, but the power is so high it's only design win is the iMac. Oh yeah, the performance is beaten by the 970M as well :(

    So, AMD spent 3 years just catching-up to Nvidia while setting themselves up to get passsed again, this time MASSIVELY. And while Hawaii helped their fortunes on the desktop, it would have ZERO effect on the notebook, as it was just too leaky. And we all know how much desktop sales are growing, right? And on the desktop Nvidia is owning thanks to (1) releasing the GTX 780 6 months before Hawaii (which, while slower, was close enough in performance to stymie upgrades) to the GTX 970 (which AMD has no counter for almost a year). It feels like AMD is just slipping further-and-further behind.

    AMD has to either find a tech advantage they can actually leverage to increase sales (read: not HSA), or they have to find a market they can leverage their current assets to expand into, or they have to create a new market out of thin air. Everything else is stagnant.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  11. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    So I notice all you doom and gloomers have not once mentioned AMD purchase of rights to ARM which is what ZEN is for. HSA is real and moving forward. Hell look at Mantle and what it did with ABSOLUTELY no hardware change. Seriously, you guys have got to get out of the basement more, get some sunshine. AMD has set forth as of 2 years ago a business plan that they have yet to alter which shows the progress is going the direction they wish. Nothing in this market moves in 6 months, but rather years. And lets not downplay the media and how it manipulates the flow for one side or another. There is no dreaming here just facts.

    In the laptop market you seem to be hard core on Intels side yet AMD has quite the number of powerhouses that match or exceed them. GPUs at the moment do seem to be in Nvidias favor where dGPUs are concerned. But AMDs press for APU wins is based on the solid fact of a smaller footprint and dGPUs have no place in that market. Of all the people I know with Laptops, and it is a fair amount, none need anything more than an APU, be it Intel or AMD.

    How about this: Maybe tone down the negativity and give the positives that AMD brings that can be handled by AMD. Acting as if every piece of hardware with AMD in it is solely designed by AMD and they're responsible for the final product is not just inane but hardly helping the discussion.
     
  12. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well it's nice to see that AMD has managed to creep into the low end/budget 15% of the Steam machines market whilst Intel and Nvidia take the rest.

    I think perhaps AMD's 'marketing team' was caught napping once again.
     
  13. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    BUT WHERE ARE THE REAL PRODUCTS?

    Sorry..just...

    It's nothing to do with performance. I know where you are coming from but if the products that consumers want to buy don't exist then what's the point of Mantle/TressFX and all that other crap? Bottom line it's selling stuff to make money. They need to get their chips in as many products as possible and not just bargain basement stuff. I think their only way is to start making their own line. MS had to do it with Surface, sure they have more money but it's one hell of a product. I don't want to see AMD permanently reduced to the current situation of 'token alternative CPU' in a manufacturers inventory. They deserve better.

    But all I'm seeing from AMD thats being pushed a positives from the fantasist fans is powerpoints, paper products, stuff on the horizon and benchmarks.

    If AMD carries on as they are all they will get is scraps from the table. It's time for them to take some risks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  14. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yup, there's no money in their current operations, and changing this train's heading will require a lot of head-butting from the new change in management (and doing it on a shoestring budget too).

    APUs can't command the premiums they want to charge, because nobody wants to pay extra for better integrated graphics:

    http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...y-better-value-than-a-dual-core-intel-core-i3

    And even with those massive price cuts, AMD still took a huge hit last quarter in discrete and APU share, compared to all their competition.

    http://hexus.net/business/news/comp...-apu-sales-fell-30-per-cent-q4-2014-says-jpr/

    They need to find a new angle to sell their products, because these have not been working for the last several years. They are outgunned price-wise, tech-wise and advertising-wise on both of these major fronts.

    Can you imagine the hurt that you get when you simultaneously drop prices on your brand-new product by 20% and see sales fall 30%? Astronomical loss, that's what you get.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  15. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    AMD had the opportunity to create a NUC style box with their APU's and didn't do it. Their contracts to OEM's and lack of yields are most likely to blame or a lack of foresight but they could of destroyed the ultra small PC market early on with the APU's.

    Its not terribly hard to believe either, one of my biggest gripes about NUC's is their lack of output power to display anything other then a desktop and lack of options for multi monitor support.

    I still think they have a chance with these APU's, right now they aren't very interesting on the full desktop side or even laptop but in a small box they should be able to generate some OEM interest.
     
  16. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    A Chromebook with one of their APUs in it would have been interesting. But last week another one of AMD's 'experts' said that Chromebooks weren't for them.

    I think AMD is waiting for some new market to suddenly emerge from nowhere.

    Until then they'll keep on working on making Lara Croft's hair look fabulous!
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  17. euskalzabe

    euskalzabe Gawd

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    HA! Well at least they did succeed on that one, her hair looks amazing! Everytime I see any other character now, they suck. I wish everybody used TressFX for characters' hair, always. It makes the whole image look more believable to me.
     
  18. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, it's not up to then to determine what goes on a chromebook and what doesn't. They just supply hardware and drivers. They aren't publicly supporting chromebooks probably because it's a dead end market.
     
  19. omega-x

    omega-x 2[H]4U

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    I hope by "dead end market", you mean, the top selling laptops on Amazon for many years running.

    Even my parents have one.

    The haswell celerons are the best bang for the buck I've ever seen in mobile hardware.

    Equivalent AMD's are 400-500 dollar systems.


    On a tangent: the only design win Kaveri had in laptops. And I do mean ONLY. Was the Elitebook 725 with IPS 1080p and SSD. and that was 1200 frelling dollars and had atrocious battery life in linux vs it's nearest competition, Thinkpad X240.

    The thermal constraints basically gimped it as a gaming platform and it BARELY had an edge over i5-4200u in gaming. Like, what's the point? Radeon is the only selling point they've got and it barely had *that*.

    I have an Elitebook 725, it's a nice little machine and built like a tank, and I don't notice any slowness day-to-day, but my next laptop is a broadwell T450s for better or worse, since I'd rather have foolproof linux support and battery life under said OS.
     
  20. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wow, that is one sad review:

    http://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-EliteBook-725-G2-Notebook-J0H65AW-Review.127636.0.html

    HP EliteBook 820 G1 is essentially the same chassis with the same battery, just an Intel processor, and it throttles a whole lot less in Cinebench, and gets twice the battery life!

    Also, the comparison to the Lenovo ThinkPad X240 is accurate because both are using single-channel memory to power their graphics, like you'll find in a lot of budget thin and light systems. But I have a feeling the second memory channel would have made little difference, if the battery life is any indicator of just how much juice this is using.

    And that's Haswell. Intel has the bonus now of Broadwell, so we're going to have to see big things from Carrizo.
     
  21. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    So you haven't read the 40% power reduction? Or that the power reduction gain is from on die southbridge and better power states mainly at idle, which was where Kaveri was losing not at full power where it equaled Intel.
     
  22. omega-x

    omega-x 2[H]4U

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    The 725 supports dual channel ram but nearly none of them shipped with a 2nd ram stick. They also reviewed a model with a TN panel.

    Adding more ram to mine doubled the graphics scores.

    But yeah thermal throttling just about does the chip in. Carrizo will fare better but will it have a chance in hell of design wins?
     
  23. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No, it's good they're going to copy Haswell's power consumption improvements 2 years later, and Broadwell's SoC configuration for U and Y devices a year later.

    So, when can we actually expect this to be available in a real testable notebook? December, if we're lucky?
     
  24. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You said you own one, so I'm curious! Forget short-lived benchmarks like 3dmark, does it provide DOUBLE the framerate long-term (i.e after 15 minutes of gaming)?

    I'm curious to see if the CPU is the true inefficient half of this crap sandwich? Is the GPU more peppy even in a real game after you give the chassis time to warm up?
     
  25. omega-x

    omega-x 2[H]4U

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    Real gaming is great on it, for what it is. (after dual channeling it.. I doubt there is a 12.5" laptop anywhere that games better in its' off hours, nonwithstanding some alienware or clevo 11.6's that have dGPU's)

    throttling is always nearly instant (meaning performance is static) and not always horrible (mantle for example, if the cpu load is null).
     
  26. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Fair, so titles that use less CPU allow the GPU some breathing room?

    Then perhaps DX12 will open new vistas for AMD in the 19w segment, since the CPU efficiency is much higher? If this actually happens, then I guess Mantle did do them some good :D
     
  27. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    What a load of garbage, never before have I seen some with absolutely no clue about the computer business post so much garbage in the cpu section. You don't have no clue it is impossible to show you that you are wrong, wait no it is not , AMD is selling chips where they make real profits no one else is doing that on consoles.

    That is why AMD opted for keeping FM2+ platform because that will make them less money.

    Here is another option delusional people who post something they heard or read about on other forums from other people and just base "their" opinion on stuff that has no grain of reality.
    AMD has to spend money on branding (someone send them a few bucks and they will beat Intel that is what is wrong).
    AMD has to spend money in markets where Intel buys designs because they have branding that will trump anything.
    AMD should just beat Intel with 5 times less (or more) of a budget for R&D.



    Killer app will save the day for AMD hoorah !
    And yet you are not bright enough to get the idea why AMD would even launch AM1.
    The only thing where there is no money is what you have been proposing it is the old AMD strategy o banging head against wall and keep doing so. When you ignore that consoles have a dedicated following and are good for sales it is stil money coming in with a fixed 5+ year cycle. For technology they only crreated once several years back.

    And yeah why worry about it anyway? If these Intel designs are so good why didn't they win the bids for consoles? Wait Intel can make more money on tablet platform where they give away their product buy one get one free. Yes that is where the money is........
    yes we all know about the 15 minute gaming flaw in AMD design , where did you find this one?

    Gaming on 19Watt is so important ?
    As it looks now Vulkan will do them good since it will be platform independent.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  28. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    So what your saying is..it's works 60% of the time everytime?:D

    Reading through all that...you feel that AMD will survive just fine selling weak custom APU chips to MS/Sony and Nintendo for eventually $2 a pop. Okay...looking good for the NON console AMD consumer then.:rolleyes:

    Intel didn't get the console job because it didn't need it in the first place. It's products are in 98% of the consumer PCs, laptops already and also a growing bunch of the tablets. Maybe they didn't even put in a bid. If they did I bet they spent an hour on it.

    Thank you for backing up my point. We already know which camp you fall into. You hang on in there champ!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  29. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    At the end of the day you can tell how well a company or item is doing with the traffic and activity on forums like these. Look at the AMD CPU section. Other than this topic...it's nearly a ghost town. Activity is almost nil.

    Not like it was 5 years ago. Seems a lot of people have got fed up waiting/being disappointed and moved on.

    Will my next desktop be an AMD? Well I've gone back over my CPU buying history and since 1999 since I bought my first AMD chip (K6-III 400) I've purchased at least ten AMD CPUs for my PCs and laptops. Plus I've always gone with AMD chips for customers custom builds as in the past. So that's another 20+ I've bought. I've had some excellent chips from them over the years. The Athlon 4000, Opteron 180 and Phenom II 720 being stand out chips.

    Looking at what's available now and in the near future I can't say I would. I'd be looking at a i5 setup at the very least. Also I wouldn't buy in an AMD for a customer now. I would probably go straight to a i3 for general use.

    Shame but there you go, folks can't use Word/Excel on a console yet.
     
  30. mi7chy

    mi7chy 2[H]4U

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    Really? I hardly post here but majority of my purchases have shifted from Intel to AMD because I need versatility of both workstation and ESXi server and best performance bang for the buck. If AMD/Glofo offered a 14nm APU in tablet form that does better than 720p for Windows gaming then I'd drop the recently purchased Broadwell tablet too.
     
  31. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If I was Sony or Microsoft or even samsung might be looking at buying amd but the reality is I see amd dissolving selling off designs and patents to Qualcomm Samsung or intel.
     
  32. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    Regardless of the traffic which is easily explained by AMD "tight to the chest" approach over the past 2 years. Right now the only new CPU product is Carrizo and that is this thread. Zen, AMDs next CPU- brand new architecture, isn't due till end of year to next. And based on recent AMD communication, we wont have any info to discuss till really near up to the moment Zen is released.

    As far as AMD, I love my 8350 and enjoy it everyday. I have over 100 games that not one has an issue with my setup. These things are OCing beasts and so far seem quite bullet proof. I am NOT comparing to the performance of any other CPU, just giving my experience of how it performs for me. And I can say there hasn't been a single moment I felt it was holding me back.

    Carrizo, so far, looks to be very impressive and shows considerable gains to the point of making some interesting competition for Intel. Of course this is assuming it runs real world the same as it is expected.
     
  33. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    Lets put it this way selling an APU which your client signed of on is not bad, it says enough, these chips are what they want. Then money comes into play. It is money there is no competition they can supply these things for 5 years long, how much money well that does not matter it is still a good amount Sony and MS can not bankrupt AMD because no one will make chips for them next 4 to 5 years and were talking about an industry which is pretty large.

    It is sad that you post such nonsense here because the number of sales for Xbox1 and PS4 proves that you have no clue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  34. R3MF

    R3MF [H]ard|Gawd

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    is there any sign of a server SKU of Carrizo as there is of Kaveri (bald eagle)?

    curious whether Carrizo would therefore have an ECC memory controller baked in...

    would make an awesome hardened industrial computer like this:

    http://linuxgizmos.com/com-express-module-runs-linux-on-3-6ghz-bald-eagle/

    imagine one of these powering a moon rover or satellite, or some such awesomeness!
     
  35. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    no they stated no desktop/server. Likely doesn't scale enough for that segment.
     
  36. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Erm I was referring to the fact that whilst the console thing might just keep AMD afloat for the next few years, it's not really helping the fact that if consumers want to buy other products with AMD components in them then it's pretty slim pickings and will probably only get worse.

    Quit focusing on the console APUs. The issue is that AMD haven't really got much else going on now or in the future that's going to be a big seller.

    Where are the tablets/NUCs/NAS/phones/quality laptops/quality ultrabooks/quality desktops/Chromebooks/steaming boxes on the shelves all with a little AMD sticker on it?

    You have to agree that the choices for AMD gear from retailers are not that great and have been getting worse year by year. That's the issue most of us realists here are referring to.

    You have even mentioned this yourself so I can't understand your disbelief -

    " Originally Posted by Pieter3dnow - The thing is that the APU is prolly very good but the benchmarks do not worry or excite me, the problem tends to be finding one in a configuration that is appealing."

    That's what I'm talking about. We're on the same page.

    AMD needs to get more quality products on the shelves. Simple as that. That would be a win for you and me. The consoles are merely a way to stop the banks calling in the debts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  37. fixedmy7970

    fixedmy7970 Gawd

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    ^ "AMD haven't really got much else going on now or in the future that's going to be a big seller"

    ...
    brah, wat? you can see the future?
     
  38. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Look up the word 'extrapolation'.
     
  39. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    Or "overly pessimistic"
     
  40. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    So what do you guys think the future holds?

    Oh and try think of something other than "consoles" and "looks good on paper".