AMD Releases more Carrizo Details: AMD's ISSCC 2015 Presentation

Discussion in 'AMD Processors' started by cageymaru, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    there and in the lowest level budget laptops toshiba and lenovo might make 1-3 models im talking the 300-500 range and a4 and a6 maybe a8 parts laptops you will see in walmart.
     
  2. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah somehow I very much doubt what you are saying ;) , Intel allows stuff as buy one get one free to OEM, Intel pays for design wins. They have a way to funnel cash into OEM which is deemed "legal".

    On the merrit of the nanometer discussion i heard this before on PCper podcast and I was thinking how can you be such an idiot parroting this. It has been know that the manufacturing process of lower nanometer products is a bit skewed. Where they use the term but the only some parts in the process where they use 14nm and the rest is still bigger then advertised.


    They came up with this marketing ploy a long time ago , so telling people it is 14nm is not exactly the truth even tho everyone in the industry is doing it.

    So why are people saying that it has an impact? What is the problem spending your money on something that is 28nm ? When you have something to say about it look at the size of the chip is the problem or something else and I'm guessing that you wouldn't know the difference between 28nm and 14nm if you had both in your hands.
     
  3. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    I can't understand why people can't see the difference between great products on paper and how that doesn't necessarily translate into decent desirable tangible product on the shelves.

    You can be as great on paper and silicon as you want, but if no one is using or buying then it ain't worth jack.

    AMD needs to start building it's own line of mid to high end hardware (laptops/tablets/desktops) and actually promoting it properly.

    Dump the E1 level crap and get serious.
     
  4. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The e line should be dropped
    a4 tablets
    a6 a8 a10 low mid and high end laptops
    fx desktop line

    then they need to come out with a base level instruction set that gets used in every case and it uses the cpu and gpu cores in a symphony of parallel processing power. And some how implement hyperthreading.
     
  5. mi7chy

    mi7chy 2[H]4U

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    AMD and Samsung foundry need to partner so we can get some real competition. Haswell i5-4300U was a throttling POS that got replaced with Broadwell Core M and while it no longer throttles I can only run games at 720p with low settings to get shy of 30 fps. Hoping for an APU that does 1080p with at least 30fps or 720p at 60fps in a Thinkpad T450s chassis or better a Surface Pro 4.
     
  6. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yes, but if they didn't do this, they would have absolutely no hope of x86 growing in the tablet space.

    When you are years late to the party, and insist on using a completely incompatible architecture to the industry favorite, you have to give away some product for cheap to move that mountain. Even if you design a competitive piece of hardware, you still have to be both "better" and "cheaper" to gain any interest.

    It's one monopoly (portable minimum computing device = ARM) versus another (higher-end computing device = x86), and AMD is just getting caught in the middle of the storm.
     
  7. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    And sometimes better and cheaper isn't even enough. I don't think vendors realize the risk of a new product sometimes. In addition to the CAPEX, ect. Reoccurring risks adds up quick.

    I am also on the side of I don't care about nm, Ghz, or any of that crap. I just black box it. Xx performance at y cost and z heat. Overclocks whatever percent. I don't care if it uses trigate, quantum physics or whatever (unless it increases risk.) Now I am a curious guy don't get me wrong, but when assessing products I try to make it black and white.

    If AMD pulls off some miracle and becomes competitive in the high end market I'll use their CPU and GPU for my next rig. It has to make sense though.
     
  8. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    the only way amd is gonna stay relevant or as some would say become relevant is if they stop trying to get rid of old stock. Then they need a great chip that will make it so oems have to stock it they need carrizo to make all i3 and i5 look slow and it needs to have double or triple the battery life of the i3 and i5 then market on how power efficient they are while downplaying how behind they are in terms of speed.
     
  9. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    Actually I don't think it needs to be that extreme. All AMD needs is to make a low price tablet or laptop showing their iGPU prowess with a 1080p or greater screen and they will easily get a grew win.
     
  10. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    so they need every or at least dell, lenovo, and hp to carry a top shelf platform with an amd chip in it. when intel has dominated the top shelf for years now...

    They need a new company to partner with exclusively to force the whole production series to go amd and it needs to be a big hitter. I dont see any big fish dropping intel in favor of amd sony does not make laptops anymore i dont think samsung would be a partner to them all of the others are drinking the intel koolade.
     
  11. fixedmy7970

    fixedmy7970 Gawd

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    They did kind of already. Samsung is helping glofo with 14nm.
     
  12. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Samsung has stopped selling laptops in a lot of countries over the past year so they aren't going to help with the big AMD push any time soon.
     
  13. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    Supposedly you should have better hardware or software to drive a market. Since Intel forgot that and was so busy pounding their chest and making all kinds of funny noises explaining to all the idiots in the stock market that they were so good and AMD didn't stand a change that other market was passing them by.

    And not because of the x86 code which Intel prolly keeps on thinking is their life line but because the other operating system and a processor which delivered on substance and not so flashy overpriced stuff you could buy from Intel.
     
  14. fixedmy7970

    fixedmy7970 Gawd

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    But what if AMD has managed to put x86 and arm chips together so that you can run both architectures at the same time? mind=blown
     
  15. Tendencyman

    Tendencyman n00b

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    AMD still has its appeal. Whenever I build low end desktops, I go for AMD. I have been using AMD since 2001. I just switch to Intel this month.
     
  16. durquavian

    durquavian Gawd

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    I think that is what some thought and hoped for with Zen. But turned out to be a unified socket supporting either or. Did read once AMD was to have a small ARM core for security but that may not be on die but on the mobo.
     
  17. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I would not expect OS support to be good for such a configuration. And software support would be non existent.
     
  18. Simmonz

    Simmonz 2[H]4U

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    Even for gaming there isn't a huge increase in many games. [H] used an overclocked I7 and my overclocked 8350 was within 5 FPS to theirs on a GTX 980 on Watch Dogs at exactly same settings.
     
  19. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Amd needs to do something they need a cpu that pounds the highest intel one into dust like come up with some sort of jiggery pokery that ends up with a 2x speed advantage in all benchmarks. And they need to do the same with the gpu vs Nvidia all while keeping the price lower than big blue and green.

    I do feel hsa could do that cpu and gpu used as a Co processor with discrete graphics with the right drivers and such should show gains everywhere.

    and i have used amd since the k6-2 500mhz came out it was the first pc i built with 128mb 72 pin ram running windows 98 and later 2k. And a GeForce gts 250 next after that was a 1.2 ghz tbird then 2400+ tbred then 3200+ 939 now I'm using a am3 250 but the pc i use most is my laptop my first intel since the 500mhz celeron.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  20. Simmonz

    Simmonz 2[H]4U

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    As much as I would like to see that it isn't very likely. I think AMD needs to focus on making chips that outperform or match Intel's offering at the same price range like they are now. They will never match Intel blow for blow and they know it. They need to focus on getting back in the black so they can remain competitive. I do have a bit of hope for an I7 killer if they can continue to add some more quality engineers.
     
  21. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Its really got a lot to do with chipsets, not just the fact that the CPU can compete in games but what the I/O and expansion support as well.
     
  22. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Nope, performance and benchmarks got nothing to do with it. Who actually reads and cares about the benchmarks? Less than 1% of the computing public. Why? Because only 1% of the computer using population needs to know.

    Does Joe Public need a i3 or a i7 for Ebay, Word, Facebook and Hotmail? That in my experience of dealing with real world users is what they need a computer for.

    Gaming? The Sims is the only one that pops up with any regularity.

    What's needed is AMD marketing their product so Joe Public feels confident buying it. AMD needs to get the public asking for their products. Create buzz and awareness.

    Marketing Marketing Marketing

    Ask Apple.

    AMD are their own worst enemy.
     
  23. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Apple might be a bad one to ask they are bleeding market share now. And historically they have not done well with out Steve Jobs did he turn them around enough to survive most definitely apple will live on for at least a decade or more on the iPhone alone.

    Amd got all the consoles why is it they are struggling so much. Intel is so dominant right now i just don't know amd is the only real choice under 900 if you want to do more than the lightest games. Above that intel plus discrete owns the yard.

    and benches are more important than they really should be they influence under informed people and executives to choose based on numbers. Amd did choose a good area of focus as I'm sure one of the main focus oems work on is power consumption if amds chip can undercut intel in that manner then oems can market long lasting powerful apu based models.
     
  24. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not anywhere near as badly as AMD are. Oh and they do have quite a lot more cash in the coffers too.


    It's a tough one but IMO mainly of AMD's own making.
     
  25. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And amd has Xbox one, ps4 and wiiu all selling apu/gpu units. I don't think amds coffers are that bare that they will fold up. That said in the oem built pc lines they are nearly non existent now they have had poor showing in the custom built lines but they still maintain a presence there. They need to fix the oem they need units for business and grandma and kids moving. Not the small percentage of people who built it thrmselves. And this is where intel has shut them out.
     
  26. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well the console deals will be locked down tight. I bet they don't make much on that, especially after a year or two. Costs and a bit more. The quarter financials still aren't great after all.

    The only benefit AMD gets from the consoles is that they are tied in with three industry giants. That makes it look better on the loan/credit application to the bank.

    People pay attention when you are a critical point of failure for large divisions of corporations.
     
  27. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm sure they are in the black on that deal especially as time goes on hopefully they will get the next Gen too.
     
  28. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yup, since 2011 Intel has had "good enough" integrated graphics, while AMD has been wasting time and money putting moar coars into their GPUs, and not a red cent spent on improving CPU performance or trying to tell people WHY THEY NEED AN IMPROVED IGP. This goes double when you realize that the laptop industry has topped-out at 768p as the entry-level display (the kind you see in most AMD APU laptops)...maybe they'll move to 1080p after 4k takes over, but by that time AMD will be long-dead.

    You remember how SEGA made inroads against the unstoppable brute Nintendo, opening the gates for Sony to roll over the tyrant? They had THREE THINGS:

    1. Impressive hardware at a decent price-point.

    2. A killer app in Sonic to make people want to buy.

    3. The best TARGETED advertising campaign anyone had ever made for a console at the time, no expenses spared. SEGA SCREAM, anyone?

    AMD sorta has #1, if you don't care about single-threaded performance. But they ALWAYS charge a serious premium for their latest high-end APUs on laptops, making them the same cost as Intel + entry-level Nvidia GPU. If you can't lower your prices, nobody is going to bite when faced with the new fish.

    They don't have a clue about #2, since nothing essential can really take advantage of HSA. And you have an uphill battle trying to sell moar coars when everyone else is happy playing Minecraft on whatever IGP they have. The majority of people don't play ANY demanding games at all, which is why smartphones have become the casual gaming platform of choice...but AMD is still "not listening" with their fingers in their ears.

    As for #3, they never have and still have no idea how to market anything - the Athlon 64 succeeded purely on word-of-mouth. Unfortunately, geeks have little say in what people buy anymore these days, as people no-longer have to use desktop computers as their primary consumption platform.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  29. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    I had Minecraft working pretty smoothly on a Raspberry Pi 2 this week!

    That's another huge chunk of the gaming community dealt with.
     
  30. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    Basically AMD has a future as long as it keeps developing cores for X86 might not be desktop dominance, but on other fronts it might succeed .

    Even if AMD was way faster you get the same problem as you had OEM not pickup any cpu even if there was a shortage on Intel side they never picked up AMD.

    How do you market when the buying public has no clue what processor is in it. If it cared about that why would they ever bought a tablet or a phone for that matter. You have to get them to buy a PC then state it has to be with an AMD cpu, not something very likely when most would choose colour or shape of the computer rather then the CPU. And where does AMD get cash from for this, the amounts they can spend on it is so little compared to others.

    The marketing budget (to do this) alone would put AMD out of business
    No cash and cancelling products to save enough money to make the new cpu line for 2016 possible and hope that is the cpu that AMD does better.
     
  31. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    My experience with amd apu thus far has not been great.
     
  32. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Intel over many years has created a brand name presence. Even if people have no fucking Idea what a processor is, they understand "Intel Inside" and that stupid 5-note jingle. They have equated this brand name with "top performance," and that image has helped them get through the leaner years (like the P4 debacle), and has made them flush with cash when they have a winner (Core 2).

    In an age where we don't upgrade every 2 years because our new software is too slow, you have to go that extra mile to tell people why they should upgrade. Right now Intel is running ads to convince people to upgrade to Broadwell and Cherry Trail. They don't use those codewords, but they are pushing the amazing wonders of 2-in-one tablets. They don't even name a processor line, JUST A FINISHED PRODUCT THAT PEOPLE CAN PUT THEIR HANDS ON. That is the kind of direct advertising that gets people into stores, and since AMD can't win many Tablet designs, they don't get much benefit.

    That's the problem: AMD has no COMPELLING PRODUCT that we didn't already have five years ago. The 785G HD 4200 integrated graphics from 2009 can still play Minecraft, so why do I need the massively power-hungry GPU they include on Kaveri? And the CPU performance of Kaveri is the same as my old Phenom II also from 2009, so why should I upgrade? GIVE ME TANGIBLE REASONS LIKE TOUCHSCREENS, HANDWRITING / VOICE RECOGNITION, OOH SHINY! Oh wait, this is AMD, we just make products and ship press releases and host the occasional conference aimed strictly at industry professionals, like we always have.

    Performance alone isn't enough to sell a component. You have to sell the entire finished product, especially now that people buy laptops and tablets where there are fewer configuration choices than ever. You have to get your brand presence out there, and schmooze with the right people to really get design wins. IT also helps if you can hit power targets with competitive performance, because between Apple, Samsung, Google and Intel's massive advertising efforts, they have CONVINCED EVERYONE that highly portable touch devices are what they need. This despite the fact that the PC sitting in the corner is still several times faster than a tablet!

    AMD was in a situation round 2005 to afford the advertising required to build a brand name image, and they had the money to spend on optimizing their designs towards lower power, but they instead chose to spend their billions on a third new fab and buying ATI. They saw the magic of advertising, and how it got Intel through the lean times...I guess they just assumed the lean times would never come, flush with cash as they were.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  33. Simmonz

    Simmonz 2[H]4U

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    I've used them for customers who have very basic needs and haven't had any complaints thus far.
     
  34. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's good to know I'm not the only one.

    AMD also state they don't want to get into Chromebooks. I wonder if that's because everyone making them has said they are fine with ARM or Intel.
     
  35. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Also AMD has had a power/performance issue lately. It isn't that their APUs can't offer the performance 99.9% of people need, it is that the power usage to get that is high compared to Intel. This is particularly an issue in laptops. The CPU and display are what eat up all the battery so if you can make the CPU use less, then it is a big win.

    Intel has really focused on efficiency lately and have delivered. Their chips don't use much power for the performance you get, particularly their U series laptop chips. As others have noted, their graphics are competent these days too. You can run pretty much any game on them. No you don't get high rez, details turned up, etc, but they do a good job for the needs of most.

    So AMD is in a bad position. They don't compete well in the mainstream "I just need good enough performance" market power wise. They don't compete in the high end market performance wise. That makes them a tough sell.
     
  36. 1/2 bent

    1/2 bent Gawd

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    I just bought an A10 laptop. It has the a10 7300 in it with 8 gb ram and 1tb hd. Not bad for a cheap laptop thats max 19w and actually plays some games I found out. The gpu is also overclockable. Can get twice the speed out of it on stock volts from 533 to over 1000. Seems to be as fast as my i5 laptop except in games ( HP pro 450g with discrete AMD graphics.
     
  37. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    i could get an a10 7300 with a r7 260m 2G discrete today lenovo thinkpad e555 $635
     
  38. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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    Intel hasn't given up at all......they wouldn't have released X99 if that was the case.
     
  39. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    And yet you are missing some key parts. Apple used to have real processors in their computer PPC, they switched to Intel a good while back and guess what ?

    Yep Apple still not doing that great. So much for the Intel inside argument.

    I'll explain to you what is a compelling product it is called Xbox1 and PS4. AMD does zero advertising and yet they sell. Outside of the grasp of intel AMD can sell "compelling" products.

    Your reasoning is extremely short sighted. You have very primitive ideas on how the OEM market work clearly AMD has good products just that their competition is doing things which should be illegal but for some strange reason are not.
     
  40. Lunas

    Lunas [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I doubt very much AMD makes a heap of profit on the game consoles that is more or less assured income not really something that will sustain the R&D department.

    As for intel's shady business practice all really depends how intel is keeping the oems are they doing it via volumetric discounts steeper than amd can afford or is intel retaining oems on demand and popularity alone... or are they paying the oems a bribe to keep them or threatening them... And im sure amd's lawyer team watches intel like a hawk I know i would have and if intel ever did overstep the bounds you can be sure the sec would be on them so fast. So either they are so good at covering the tracks they are not able to be noticed or they are not doing anything to get caught for.

    I looked around walmart tonight and there were 0 amd based machines

    I still say amd needs something that just outright sits intel on its rear they need to skip down to 10nm ahead of intel or come up with something that just blows the top end out of the water on all fronts. If it doesnt do that it needs to corner a market it can control game consoles could work but i doubt it. Arm too many fish qualcomm is the most dominant nvidia has a good chunk too and samsung is looking to hit hard should amd stay out no they need to show a front on this market but dont think for one moment they will dominate with out some sort of great leap over the competition extreme low watt soc with extreme performance over the others.

    In the end what it boils down to is AMD needs a win on technology something to get people to demand amd. And 19% of the customer base is not enough...
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015