AMD issues guidelines to retailers to prevent Radeon RX 6000 scalping

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DooKey

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Oh, you can bet the farm on it. Heck, Nvidia has already admitted it. "We care about gamers" What a crock of shite.
Guess they don't care for the BIG bucks their balance sheet shows for gaming income? LOL.

They care for money that's for sure, but they do service the gaming market regardless of what you think.

They know what they are doing even if geek forums or clickbait YT doesn't think so. I'd bet on NV and AMD before I bet on the YT opinion or geekers.
 

LukeTbk

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yes but also look at the market size now.
discrete GPU went from way over 100 millions card sold a year in the late 90s to being much smaller now, too right ?:

jpr_q2_2016_mkt_historical_annual_gpu_sales.png

Most of the reduction is from the GPU attach to CPU I would imagine and maybe the type of card that stop to be sold is irrelevant here, but also back in the days new generation were yearly or even shorter and progress was fast, pushing quicker update by people, are we sure they are selling way more high end cards now than before ?
 

Krenum

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Guess they don't care for the BIG bucks their balance sheet shows for gaming income? LOL.

They care for money that's for sure, but they do service the gaming market regardless of what you think.

They know what they are doing even if geek forums or clickbait YT doesn't think so. I'd bet on NV and AMD before I bet on the YT opinion or geekers.
Oh, they know what they're doing. They're masters of it. And they know how to service the customer, open your wallet and bend over. Service with a smile...Not your smile though.
 

deruberhanyok

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You guys ever wonder if maybe, all these years since the US economy tanked in 2008/2009, we've all been riding an unrealistic bubble combining cheap commodity goods with increased cost of living and generally stagnant wages?

And now, 10+ years and a global pandemic later, we're starting to see that it couldn't last forever?

I'm just thinking, the long-term effects of nearly a whole year now of global economic downturn (and possibly much longer) could take a while to really show themselves. People always complain that things are more expensive in Europe, for instance, but maybe that's just going to be the new normal now. Maybe we'll look back on $500 video cards and game consoles and have a good laugh at how cheap it all was.

I mean, I hope not. But I do wonder.
 

Krenum

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You guys ever wonder if maybe, all these years since the US economy tanked in 2008/2009, we've all been riding an unrealistic bubble combining cheap commodity goods with increased cost of living and generally stagnant wages?

And now, 10+ years and a global pandemic later, we're starting to see that it couldn't last forever?

I'm just thinking, the long-term effects of nearly a whole year now of global economic downturn (and possibly much longer) could take a while to really show themselves. People always complain that things are more expensive in Europe, for instance, but maybe that's just going to be the new normal now. Maybe we'll look back on $500 video cards and game consoles and have a good laugh at how cheap it all was.

I mean, I hope not. But I do wonder.
Its all part of the great reset man. I fear that this is "The New Normal" (I really hate that phrase). But yes, nothing lasts forever. Even cold November rain :p
 

cybereality

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discrete GPU went from way over 100 millions card sold a year in the late 90s to being much smaller now, too right ?:

View attachment 311790

Most of the reduction is from the GPU attach to CPU I would imagine and maybe the type of card that stop to be sold is irrelevant here, but also back in the days new generation were yearly or even shorter and progress was fast, pushing quicker update by people, are we sure they are selling way more high end cards now than before ?
That's over the same period where integrated graphics became more of the standard for office or non-gaming PCs (and even some light gaming). If you could look at only high performance gaming GPUs, I imagine the numbers would be higher.
 

LukeTbk

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That's over the same period where integrated graphics became more of the standard for office or non-gaming PCs (and even some light gaming). If you could look at only high performance gaming GPUs, I imagine the numbers would be higher.
It would be my gut feeling as well, but I am not sure how to validate that.

Last quarter there was apparently 11.5 million discrete GPU unit shipped, in Q3 2012 that number was quite higher at 17.4 and I feel integrated GPU where quite there by then with intel being by far the biggest seller of GPU since at least 2010.


Q1mw-001.png

You could be right obviously, it could be the result of pc office type still getting GPU momentum even if they were not needed, but I am not so sure if graphic cards for gaming sales have been specially high in recent time, I imagine someone would know on this board. TO the point to be game changing in term of amortizing R&D even if R&D got so much more giant over time.

For example looking at only Nvidia video card, Q4 2009: 14.17 millions unites, Q4 2015 that was 7.68 millions, I am not sure if many office PC went for an Nvidia card in Q4 2009 for office work instead of some intel GMA in that era
 

sfsuphysics

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You guys ever wonder if maybe, all these years since the US economy tanked in 2008/2009, we've all been riding an unrealistic bubble combining cheap commodity goods with increased cost of living and generally stagnant wages?
Nah, well ok maybe, but "we" are in the bubble. If you look at Steam stats for GPUs (and take it with how ever many grains of salt as you'd like), the top 30% of GPUs, 1060, 1050ti, 1050, 1650, 1070 (oohh high end!), and that puts us at 30.5% of GPUs, then the next 6.5% are 2060 & 1660ti the "high end" stuff, and I'm sure you'll see something similar with CPUs (they don't seem to list anything beyond speed & cores). So yeah we're the 1%ers when it comes to hardware, the rest are not buying new shit as it's coming out GPUs.
 

Furious Nerd

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yeah but look at board complexity from those ones and look at the ones now.
I mean, complexity of the first CDs and floppy discs and magnetic drives weren't too complex looking back at it either, but at the time it was, and these particular pieces of hardware had incredibly entry high level costs when they were first released to consumers and for a long period of time after. I find it hard to believe designing the first and best 3D cards of the early games in modern gaming was any different than the R&D and component issues they had with the storage medias at first. And high end "super expensive" video cards such as the 6800 Ultra coudln't have been simple to make back then, could it? (I mean, honest question, maybe all those cards I listed were relatively low tech by that time. Maybe the new cards are so much more complex and take so much more R&D to bring to fruition these days than back then, idk. Not an engineer). It might look like simple boards to us looking back at them all these years later, when you put them side by side next to a modern 3080. But idk if it negates all the similar challenges and pioneering methods that went into those earlier high end gaming cards, that cost much less.
Perhaps... feel free to correct me and share your own thoughts and info if I'm wrong.
 
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Furious Nerd

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discrete GPU went from way over 100 millions card sold a year in the late 90s to being much smaller now, too right ?:

View attachment 311790

Most of the reduction is from the GPU attach to CPU I would imagine and maybe the type of card that stop to be sold is irrelevant here, but also back in the days new generation were yearly or even shorter and progress was fast, pushing quicker update by people, are we sure they are selling way more high end cards now than before ?
Interesting graph. I kind of got the sense that people using integrated graphics (like built in super basic VGA output on your mobo) was way more common pre 2007 than now. I don't suppose this takes phone SoC which do contain a GPU in them into account? I just cannot believe that so many Ryzen xxxxG GPU-on-die series CPU are being sold. Or that Intel even really had any, to be honest!
 

1_rick

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I kind of got the sense that people using integrated graphics (like built in super basic VGA output on your mobo) was way more common pre 2007 than now.
Nah--everyone who can (based on my company's clientele) in the corporate world has been converting their employees to laptops for the last few years and in my experience approximately none of them have dGPUs.
 

LukeTbk

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Interesting graph. I kind of got the sense that people using integrated graphics (like built in super basic VGA output on your mobo) was way more common pre 2007 than now. I don't suppose this takes phone SoC which do contain a GPU in them into account? I just cannot believe that so many Ryzen xxxxG GPU-on-die series CPU are being sold. Or that Intel even really had any, to be honest!
I think I am misreading your message, but intel integrated GPU is by far the biggest sellers of desktop/laptop GPU, I am not sure if it moved a lot but it is now really popular, and they have became quite good that you almost need to game/power user to need to have anything more than that.
 

Lakados

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Nah--everyone who can (based on my company's clientele) in the corporate world has been converting their employees to laptops for the last few years and in my experience approximately none of them have dGPUs.
nope, they add complexity, more failure points, they ruin battery life, add heat, and they are more expensive. 99% of the time for office users an i3 with built-in graphics is all that is needed.
 

1_rick

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99% of the time for office users an i3 with built-in graphics is all that is needed.
That's what I'm seeing, yeah. Although too many people are still getting Dell laptops with frigging HDDs because of Dell's obnoxious defaults. I can usually tell, when doing a GoToMeeting with a customer, whether they're on a laptop or desktop based on how fast our application runs.
 

Furious Nerd

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I think I am misreading your message, but intel integrated GPU is by far the biggest sellers of desktop/laptop GPU, I am not sure if it moved a lot but it is now really popular, and they have became quite good that you almost need to game/power user to need to have anything more than that.
Ahh. What are the current popular models called? Are you refering to the Iris (or is that the high end integrated Intel GPUs?). What CPUs are these integrated GPUs usually on, assuming we're talking SoC.

edit: Lakados mentioned i3's have integrated GPUs. Had no idea. That's pretty cool.
Nah--everyone who can (based on my company's clientele) in the corporate world has been converting their employees to laptops for the last few years and in my experience approximately none of them have dGPUs.
Good point, I didn't really think of laptops for some reason. I could see laptops being more commonplace now than they were 10 years ago for the average office worker


Matrox, anyone? :D
 
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cybereality

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Pretty much all popular Intel chips in like the last 5 years or so also include an iGPU. It's just standard now, especially for laptops.
 

serpretetsky

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Pretty much all popular Intel chips in like the last 5 years or so also include an iGPU. It's just standard now, especially for laptops.
I think pretty much all consumer intel cpus since the 2000 series have had integrated graphics. Except for high end workstation parts and parts marked with F (like 9400F). Otherwise all celerons, pentiums, i3, i5, i7 have had them. So... like the past 9 years?. (anyone feel free to correct me)

edit: HEDT processors may not have integrated graphics (i9 and some i7 processors)
 
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cybereality

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Yeah, probably 10 years at least, you're right. I've lost all track of time.
 

cdabc123

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Right around 10 is correct. The westmere i7's (basically xeons) did not have it but its been just about a decade since then.
 

wizzi01

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I think pretty much all consumer intel cpus since the 2000 series have had integrated graphics. Except for high end workstation parts and parts marked with F (like 9400F). Otherwise all celerons, pentiums, i3, i5, i7 have had them. So... like the past 9 years?. (anyone feel free to correct me)
My 5820k doesn't
 

Furious Nerd

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Makes sense, last time I was into computer building was 2008-2010. Been out of the game for 10 years. 6800GT and Q6600 was my last foray into desktops. Now I'm back on with a 5600x and 3080 :cool: landscape changed greatly over the last 8-10 years for sure.

So how come most Intels have them but AMD not? Only a handful of new AMD CPUs have iGPU (which is great because we get the $ savings from not having a needless iGPU for us gamers).
 

LukeTbk

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Ahh. What are the current popular models called? Are you refering to the Iris (or is that the high end integrated Intel GPUs?). What CPUs are these integrated GPUs usually on, assuming we're talking SoC.
It has been over a decade that most intel CPU has a gpu coming with them, they
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units

They were GMA for a while then you had the Intel HD graphic family, for the core i3, i5, i7, sandy bridge had HD graphic 2000 or 3000 I think. They are very low marketing name, people buy chips without knowing what GPU are on them type.

Yeah, probably 10 years at least, you're right. I've lost all track of time.
Early 2000s it already was quite started:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1106/5
Finally, we have the 865G, which is the 865PE but with Intel's integrated graphics core

That one was in 2002:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/915
Already had the with a G in their CPU naming coming up, with this in the article:
Why all the fuss over a chipset with integrated graphics? Some of the largest markets in the computer industry are for systems with cheap integrated graphics. The low-end consumer and corporate sectors are almost exclusively integrated graphics markets because of their sensitivity to price and lack of need for higher performance solutions. Since those are some of the highest volume areas it's not too surprising that Intel has pushed for development of an updated 3D core in order to tailor to those markets.


I think in 2003, around 30% of new PC came with integrated graphic already.
 

LukeTbk

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So how come most Intels have them but AMD not? Only a handful of new AMD CPUs have iGPU (which is great because we get the $ savings from not having a needless iGPU for us gamers).
I think the majority of AMD Gpu sold are integrated to the CPU chips I think, because Amd GPU market share of total GPU sales tend to be a little bit higher than Nvidia, while on the discrete part if is close to 4 nvidia for every AMD card, could be wrong on that one, but I imagine laptop with AMD igpu and those hard to buy for DYU but used by integrator 3400g type.

I suspect a much smaller proportion of AMD market is office PC with very little video card performance in mind, I am not sure how big is the market of I need better than a 3400G cpu but do not mind the GPU at all desktop.
 

Lakados

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That's what I'm seeing, yeah. Although too many people are still getting Dell laptops with frigging HDDs because of Dell's obnoxious defaults. I can usually tell, when doing a GoToMeeting with a customer, whether they're on a laptop or desktop based on how fast our application runs.
I only get the Latitudes and they don’t even give me the option for a non M.2 based drive any more.
 

1_rick

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I only get the Latitudes and they don’t even give me the option for a non M.2 based drive any more.
You're not a small to medium business without a Dell agent, though. People there are, in my admittedly somewhat limited experience, buying Inspirons, Vostros, and so on, because they're cheap. I just looked and there are several 5000-series Latitudes right now on "Laptops for Business" that ship with an HDD.
 

Furious Nerd

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I think the majority of AMD Gpu sold are integrated to the CPU chips I think, because Amd GPU market share of total GPU sales tend to be a little bit higher than Nvidia, while on the discrete part if is close to 4 nvidia for every AMD card, could be wrong on that one, but I imagine laptop with AMD igpu and those hard to buy for DYU but used by integrator 3400g type.

I suspect a much smaller proportion of AMD market is office PC with very little video card performance in mind, I am not sure how big is the market of I need better than a 3400G cpu but do not mind the GPU at all desktop.
You're right, again, I am completely forgetting laptops. I was going by my recent foray into AMD CPU research in terms of the Ryzen Zen 3000 and 5000 series research and those don't have iGPUs really aside from like 2000V and a couple random xxxx-G models if I'm not mistaken. OK, I will show myself out of this thread now, sorry for derailing it and thank you for the interesting info :)
 

Lakados

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You're not a small to medium business without a Dell agent, though. People there are, in my admittedly somewhat limited experience, buying Inspirons, Vostros, and so on, because they're cheap. I just looked and there are several 5000-series Latitudes right now on "Laptops for Business" that ship with an HDD.
Yeah, when I check my portal I only get M.2's and on some, I can configure a second HDD but even those are SSD's. I would not bring in a nonsolid state device at this stage outside my servers, those are still a smidge cost-prohibitive for storage but it's getting better.
 
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This is a late common sense post that I am certain will be riddled full of holes. Here goes: Why not, if you really want cards to be in the hands of gamers, announce a launch date and(at the time of that announcement) start accepting preorders. Then(I know this is crazy) send out emails after credit cards are charged when customers can expect their cards. OMFUCKING god! What about the AIB's?? Give anyone that drops out of line a credit for the full amount and a spot in line for an AIB. This takes scalpers out and allows aib's to ramp up with minimal loss. It has been done before with less tech savvy products and companies. Too late for this launch but a low tech way to eliminate scalpers. Not one single enthusiast will fault AMD or NVIDIA for making side cash with miners as long as the cards dont end up on Ebay, or sadly, Amazon, for double the MSRP.
 

Lakados

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This is a late common sense post that I am certain will be riddled full of holes. Here goes: Why not, if you really want cards to be in the hands of gamers, announce a launch date and(at the time of that announcement) start accepting preorders. Then(I know this is crazy) send out emails after credit cards are charged when customers can expect their cards. OMFUCKING god! What about the AIB's?? Give anyone that drops out of line a credit for the full amount and a spot in line for an AIB. This takes scalpers out and allows aib's to ramp up with minimal loss. It has been done before with less tech savvy products and companies. Too late for this launch but a low tech way to eliminate scalpers. Not one single enthusiast will fault AMD or NVIDIA for making side cash with miners as long as the cards dont end up on Ebay, or sadly, Amazon, for double the MSRP.
This may sound crazy but AMD and NVidia don’t actually care, this is 100% lip service. This isn’t their problem once the AIB’s get their cards going the problem goes away. The cards not being available in any meaningful quantity actually helps their sales and provides publicity. Neither party actually had any meaningful quantity of chips available for this launch but they had to do something or risk pissing off their board members and investors. So the talk about scalpers shifts the attention away from the fact there were too few cards to sell and gives us a tangible party to blame, in this case the scalpers. This is an engineered narrative, if AMD and NVidia were capable of supplying these things in any real way this would be a non issue.
 

sover

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This may sound crazy but AMD and NVidia don’t actually care, this is 100% lip service. This isn’t their problem once the AIB’s get their cards going the problem goes away. The cards not being available in any meaningful quantity actually helps their sales and provides publicity. Neither party actually had any meaningful quantity of chips available for this launch but they had to do something or risk pissing off their board members and investors. So the talk about scalpers shifts the attention away from the fact there were too few cards to sell and gives us a tangible party to blame, in this case the scalpers. This is an engineered narrative, if AMD and NVidia were capable of supplying these things in any real way this would be a non issue.
Is easy to understand why AMD has had such supply problems. They launched three major product lines simultaneously, which wasn't a great idea, but I'm not sure what else they really could have done. They needed the mind share the Ryzen 5k series and radeon rx 6000 series provide and they also had to supply chips for the next gen consoles.

Nvidia, on the other hand is using a lesser foundry, isn't having to also produce CPUs on it, and has all the momentum in the sector already. That they've had such a problem getting enough stock out is less forgivable than AMD given the situations. Hopefully they'll be able to get this fixed before summer.
 

sfsuphysics

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This may sound crazy but AMD and NVidia don’t actually care, this is 100% lip service. This isn’t their problem once the AIB’s get their cards going the problem goes away. The cards not being available in any meaningful quantity actually helps their sales and provides publicity.
Not entirely true. As the phrase "Fuck this Nvidia paper launch bullshit, I'm going to buy an AMD card..." or something along those lines is not something any company wants to hear, so in that sense having their competitor take away their customers regardless of the reason is something they care about.

Neither party actually had any meaningful quantity of chips available
This however kind of negates that line of thinking to a degree. But it does still leave the opening for "fuck this I'll get whatever is available"
 

Marees

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Nvidia, on the other hand is using a lesser foundry, isn't having to also produce CPUs on it, and has all the momentum in the sector already. That they've had such a problem getting enough stock out is less forgivable than AMD given the situations. Hopefully they'll be able to get this fixed before summer.

Looking at the Danish retailer proshop.de 's update from 10 days back, the RTX 3060 ti stocks are reasonable, the RTX 3070 availability varies depending on the model & RTX 3080/3090 are not available in decent quantities

https://www.proshop.de/RTX-30series-overview

On the AMD side RX 6800 has limited availability
RX 6800 XT, 6900 XT are outright unavailable

https://www.proshop.de/AMD-Radeon-RX-6000-Series-overview
 
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Lakados

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Ahh. What are the current popular models called? Are you refering to the Iris (or is that the high end integrated Intel GPUs?). What CPUs are these integrated GPUs usually on, assuming we're talking SoC.

edit: Lakados mentioned i3's have integrated GPUs. Had no idea. That's pretty cool.

Good point, I didn't really think of laptops for some reason. I could see laptops being more commonplace now than they were 10 years ago for the average office worker


Matrox, anyone? :D
My security monitor PC has a Matrox, the M9188, I needed those 8 HD outputs.

but aside from it I can count the number of desktops I have on one hand, most of my “Desktop” users are now better serviced by AiO’s (which are basically big laptops) or a laptop with a good docking station. Outside of secretarial everybody is needing to be too mobile to be chained to a desktop anymore. And nobody wants to be one of those dual device users anymore no matter how good the syncing software is they always complain it’s the wrong version of the file.
 

Marees

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The ongoing semiconductor shortage isn’t just hitting big-name tech companies like AMD, Intel, and Nvidia. According to multiple automotive manufacturers, the general manufacturing problems hitting the industry are now meaningfully slowing vehicle production.

  • Toyota has slowed production on the Tundra,
  • Ford pulled in some planned downtime for its Louisville facility,
  • Fiat Chrysler has temporarily closed some factories, and
  • Volkswagen has announced it’s facing component shortages and may slow production for this reason.
  • Nissan hasn’t seen problems in the US, but its Japanese production has been slowed.
In some cases, the automakers are slowing production of slower-selling vehicles and diverting more chips to higher-end vehicles like pickup trucks and SUVs. This implies the epidemic may accelerate the ongoing US shift towards SUVs and away from passenger sedans.

https://www.extremetech.com/computi...uctor-shortage-has-come-for-the-auto-industry

“This is absolutely an industry issue,” Toyota spokesman Scott Vazin told the AP.
 

FrgMstr

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This is far enough off Topic this will now be closed.
 
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