AMD issues guidelines to retailers to prevent Radeon RX 6000 scalping

Status
Not open for further replies.

LukeTbk

Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
826
What your referencing is MAP pricing, which is the lowest one can sell a product or be cutoff from the manufacturer. Absolutely no law against selling for above a MAP price or MSRP price point, however demand will always set the upper limit on pricing. MAP pricing is a whole other discussion tho.
There is absolutely no law against selling below a MAP or MSRP either, what was illegal (or perceived to be) until very recently was a manufacturer cutting you off is reseller list because you didn't follow a minimum price (a form of vertical integration), that is now legal. If it is legal to cut off a reseller for selling below a demanded price I imagine it is even more legal to cut off a reseller for selling above an asked limit (thus being able for a manufacturer ready to destroy a relationship if they feel they are in the driver seat to set price limit and see if below just stop selling their product or follow them)

Demand do not seem to set upper limit on the playstation 5 in all the big reseller, it seem to all be the same (and set at very precise market by market) and seem completely disconnected from demand.
 

Gideon

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Messages
2,771
There is absolutely no law against selling below a MAP or MSRP either, what was illegal (or perceived to be) until very recently was a manufacturer cutting you off is reseller list because you didn't follow a minimum price (a form of vertical integration), that is now legal. If it is legal to cut off a reseller for selling below a demanded price I imagine it is even more legal to cut off a reseller for selling above an asked limit (thus being able for a manufacturer ready to destroy a relationship if they feel they are in the driver seat to set price limit and see if below just stop selling their product or follow them)

Demand do not seem to set upper limit on the playstation 5 in all the big reseller, it seem to all be the same (and set at very precise market by market) and seem completely disconnected from demand.
You can not limit the amount a retailer charges period just the lowest price it can set, same reason a car company can not tell a dealer they cant sell a car above MSRP and they cant cut them off due to reseller agreements, AMD and Nvidia have to follow them as well. PS and XBOX are all limited on launch and easily start filling the shelves after Christmas and the retailers make far more from the accessories they sell with it, they want your butt in the door far more then making slightly more on the console. Lots of rules and like I said could go on to another thread for all the details rules and agreements that make this all possible.
 

LukeTbk

Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
826
You can not limit the amount a retailer charges period just the lowest price it can set
I wonder if we are talking over each other.

Can you stop selling to a retailer ? If so you can tell them if you do not agree to respect the MSRP, we will stop selling you our merchandise, we cannot tell you not to sell them at the price you want, you will not have to pay any fine for it, but we will stop doing business in the future. Are you saying that no, they would be legally obligated to furnish in stock any reseller that want to sell their merchandise ? Yes it could mean they have to wait for any agreement that promise stock until date X to wave before stopping, obviously, but still use that future menace, last shipment will be at that date

just the lowest price it can set

I am not sure they can legally set the lower price they can sell, they can just menace to stop doing business with them if they do not sell at that minimal price (or maybe that what you mean by setting the lower price and that there is a difference they can stop doing business with reseller that do not respect lowest price because the supreme court recently made that legal, but not the other way around for when they would not respect a maximum price)
 
Last edited:

DarkSideA8

Gawd
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
612

AMD does not want Radeon RX 6000 series to be sold to scalpers

The demand for the next-generation graphics cards is noticeable higher. Suddenly everyone needs a new graphics card. A lot more people have decided to upgrade to newer models based on smaller fabrication nodes. NVIDIA was first to announce its GeForce RTX 30 ‘8nm Ampere’ series in September with AMD following with 7nm RDNA2 almost 3 months later.

In order to avoid scalpers from obtaining graphics cards and then reselling them at a much higher price, NVIDIA has implemented captcha in their own official store. The manufacturer later decided to use 3rd party sellers to offer their Founders Edition, in both US and Europe. But this only solved one problem, while the demand is still much higher than the supply.

AMD is also expected to face the huge demand for its next-generation GPUs. After all, customers who need new graphics cards will buy whatever card is available – and no one really knows when RTX 30 series will finally physically on the shelves.

In order to avoid making the same mistake NVIDIA did at the Ampere launch, AMD has sent out a document to its partners outlining the possible measures to prevent scalpers from obtaining the Radeon RX 6000 series cards. A YouTuber RedGamingTech received this document and it was shown in a video:


View attachment 290935
I read this with interest back when it came out - and noticed that Best Buy actually implemented a two stage verification process that was customer focused. (Unlike NE)

The question is - why am I not seeing 6800xt showing up in inventory at BB? I've bought a 3070 and had 3080 opportunities several times... But aside from release day - I've never seen AMD in stock.

Any idea why?
 

sphinx99

Gawd
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
909
This is the most asinine statement I have seen about this yet. The only way AMD has Q4 supply issues is if a huge section of the TAM rolls over from Green to Red. And let's say that happens. AMD still will sell easily 15X of what NV had to date.

Your statement at best is not based on anything factual and is at worst is simply fanboy shilling.
Well, we are near the end of Q4 and while you may well be correct that there are 15X 6000-series cards as RTX 3000 series units sold out there, I have been able to get a 3080 and a 3070 for our home PCs and have yet to see a single 6000-series card anywhere in my neck of the woods. So, I am going to stand by my original interpretation of this guidance as an ominous sign of probable supply issues that now look likely.
 

DPI

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
11,279
I see Ampere drop all day long across multiple stores. They sell out quickly, but there's still a steady stream. 6800/6900XT practically never.
 
Last edited:

ZeroBarrier

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
315
I read this with interest back when it came out - and noticed that Best Buy actually implemented a two stage verification process that was customer focused. (Unlike NE)

The question is - why am I not seeing 6800xt showing up in inventory at BB? I've bought a 3070 and had 3080 opportunities several times... But aside from release day - I've never seen AMD in stock.

Any idea why?
Looking back at the numbers reported by proshop of the RTX 3080 they recieved a month after their release:
mpT9PE5YtWFLBeonh5sNtm-1200-80.png


vs what they have recieved of 6800 XT a month after that release:
89930.png


And it just points to a paper launch. At least that's the only thing the numbers really point towards.
 
Last edited:

ZeroBarrier

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
315
Well, we are near the end of Q4 and while you may well be correct that there are 15X 6000-series cards as RTX 3000 series units sold out there, I have been able to get a 3080 and a 3070 for our home PCs and have yet to see a single 6000-series card anywhere in my neck of the woods. So, I am going to stand by my original interpretation of this guidance as an ominous sign of probable supply issues that now look likely.
No way, no how. The numbers released by the only retailer willing to release cards received proves that to be bunk. Check my previous post.
 

Riccochet

Fully [H]
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
24,386
I'm a firm believer that both Nvidia and AMD are selling through back channels to Chinese mining card manufacturers since the profit margin is higher.

Imagine going to Nvidia and saying you'll take every die they can sell you at 10 points over what they're sold to AIB's for. The mining cards can be cheaply manufactured so the up front hit doesn't matter.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
51,416
I'm a firm believer that both Nvidia and AMD are selling through back channels to Chinese mining card manufacturers since the profit margin is higher.

Imagine going to Nvidia and saying you'll take every die they can sell you at 10 points over what they're sold to AIB's for. The mining cards can be cheaply manufactured so the up front hit doesn't matter.
Take into hashrate, power, and the 6800, mining sales are not going to be impacting AMD's 7nm products in any way.
 

sfsuphysics

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
14,478
Looking back at the numbers reported by proshop of the RTX 3080 they recieved a month after their release:
out of curiosity what is Proshop? Is it some big distributor akin to Newegg in another country? I just have never heard of it until these cards started popping out... well theoretically popping out
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
For all AMD’s talk of supply and how they were back loading it between their console demands, their prior agreements, and TSMC’s production schedule there was no way they were making any sort of serious launch. I’ve heard reports that both Microsoft and Sony are preparing to tell their boards that they are seeing smaller than expected Christmas numbers because they aren’t producing consoles at the rate they expected due to supply problems related to the COVID.
AMD may be selling chips as fast as they make which will make the investors happy them but they’ve promised too many people too many things and I’m afraid it’s going to bite them in the ass. I don’t want another generation of NVidia dominance, and I don’t want AMD being side lined by lawsuits from partners as they fail to meet contractual obligations for deliveries, or saddled with consumer hate for paper launches and lack of supply.
 

ZeroBarrier

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
315
out of curiosity what is Proshop? Is it some big distributor akin to Newegg in another country? I just have never heard of it until these cards started popping out... well theoretically popping out
Proshop is sort of the equivalent of newegg (online store for PC parts) that serves Denmark; they also serve Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland and Germany as well. And as far as I'm aware, they are the only ones open enough to post actual numbers of stock received.

You can check their most up-to-date stock numbers directly at the website:

https://www.proshop.de/RTX-30series-overview (updated 12/16/20)

https://www.proshop.de/AMD-Radeon-RX-6000-Series-overview (updated 12/10/20)

And as you can see, they have received more 3060 Ti cards (a card that was released 18 days ago) than the entire AMD 6000 series combined.
 

GoodBoy

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2004
Messages
1,949
Take into hashrate, power, and the 6800, mining sales are not going to be impacting AMD's 7nm products in any way.
Then WTF is going on. First Nvidia cards are hard to find, now AMD's too.

Is it all being sold to miners? I thought they preferred chips made specifically for mining, and no longer favored re-purposing GPU's or video cards? But I will admit I haven't bothered with mining or with researching it any, so someone correct me if I am wrong.

From that post above, looks like AMD did a paper launch but didn't tell us that. Who the hell knows for sure. I suspect AMD is more focused on console parts for the time being.

Maybe demand has just massively outstripped supply.
 

DarkSideA8

Gawd
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
612
Then WTF is going on. First Nvidia cards are hard to find, now AMD's too.

Is it all being sold to miners? I thought they preferred chips made specifically for mining, and no longer favored re-purposing GPU's or video cards? But I will admit I haven't bothered with mining or with researching it any, so someone correct me if I am wrong.

From that post above, looks like AMD did a paper launch but didn't tell us that. Who the hell knows for sure. I suspect AMD is more focused on console parts for the time being.

Maybe demand has just massively outstripped supply.
My guess: the big boys - government sanctioned mining farms - are the only ones capable of building straight from the ASICs. It's the horde of other guys, those who want a currency to (maybe) bypass CN gov't control that are still buying traditional GPUs for the task. They and their overlords are probably willing to pay a premium for early access over the consumer /user of a GPU for gaming.
 

RanceJustice

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
6,037

I'm unaware how easy it would be for ABF substrate manufacture to be upregulated by market demands? Does it require very specialized manufacturing or materials that would make it prohibitive for new companies and/or facilities to open? Or it it simply that in the past it hasn't been worth it to expand production and so whenever the incumbent manufacturers are out of supply, they're out?

This is certainly a concern, but last I checked mining for BTC itself has been ASIC (and relatively low demand/tech ASIC) heavy for a long time. Altcoins can make use of high VRAM GPU mining, but I suppose it depends. I'm wondering why BTC is rising to an all time high but altcoins aren't getting the same increase...or is it just delayed?
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
Then WTF is going on. First Nvidia cards are hard to find, now AMD's too.

Is it all being sold to miners? I thought they preferred chips made specifically for mining, and no longer favored re-purposing GPU's or video cards? But I will admit I haven't bothered with mining or with researching it any, so someone correct me if I am wrong.

From that post above, looks like AMD did a paper launch but didn't tell us that. Who the hell knows for sure. I suspect AMD is more focused on console parts for the time being.

Maybe demand has just massively outstripped supply.
AMD is getting shit from Microsoft and Sony because they haven’t been delivering their parts at an acceptable rate and it’s hurting their Christmas sales which means if AMD doesn’t want to be sued for breaching contract they have to halt production of consumer parts and focus on them. They also haven’t been making much headway on their production of CPU’s, OEM’s are complaining about the slow delivery rate of the 4000 series mobile parts. Now also take into account silicon costs have doubled in the last 3 months and TSMC is having a hard time securing raw materials because of Chinese COVID regulations and it all comes up as AMD having a bad time.
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
I'm unaware how easy it would be for ABF substrate manufacture to be upregulated by market demands? Does it require very specialized manufacturing or materials that would make it prohibitive for new companies and/or facilities to open? Or it it simply that in the past it hasn't been worth it to expand production and so whenever the incumbent manufacturers are out of supply, they're out?
The reason for the shortages are mostly due to huge work slow downs because of COVID regulations, most facilities are operating at 30-50% capacity. And it’s not like new facilities can be opened up over night takes years to get a plant operational. Under normal circumstances there is ample room for upping output in times of increased demand. But with rare earth mines half closed and operating at greatly reduced output they can’t get the raw materials paired further with plants running with 1/3’rd the staff and you just can’t meet any degree of demand. This is going to hit AMD hardest as they haven’t been running the higher margins to eat the cost increases and their console prices are mostly fixed so they may have to eat a loss on them.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
51,416
Maybe demand has just massively outstripped supply.
Pretty sure I have written this out multiple times. With Nvidia selling a large amount of Ampere stock to miners, there is no way AMD can make enough GPUs to fill the lack of supply. Not even close.
 

DarkSideA8

Gawd
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
612
Pretty sure I have written this out multiple times. With Nvidia selling a large amount of Ampere stock to miners, there is no way AMD can make enough GPUs to fill the lack of supply. Not even close.
I get that and accept it - but take Best Buy as an example: they've had multiple restock of Ampere cards - but I've never seen AMD back in stock since they released.

And given that BB seems to be the only nation wide retailer taking steps against scalping ( MC is regional) - you would think that AMD would be pushing cards to BB. So where are they going (if not to the console mfrs? ... B/c computer owners don't seem to be able to buy them
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
51,416
I get that and accept it - but take Best Buy as an example: they've had multiple restock of Ampere cards - but I've never seen AMD back in stock since they released.

And given that BB seems to be the only nation wide retailer taking steps against scalping ( MC is regional) - you would think that AMD would be pushing cards to BB. So where are they going (if not to the console mfrs? ... B/c computer owners don't seem to be able to buy them
Dunno. I do not work at AMD and would need to in order to answer your question.
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
I get that and accept it - but take Best Buy as an example: they've had multiple restock of Ampere cards - but I've never seen AMD back in stock since they released.

And given that BB seems to be the only nation wide retailer taking steps against scalping ( MC is regional) - you would think that AMD would be pushing cards to BB. So where are they going (if not to the console mfrs? ... B/c computer owners don't seem to be able to buy them
AMD is getting hit hard by cost increases, TSMC cancelled all bulk order pricing and raised prices as well. In the current market AMD can’t sell their GPU’s at the price they have been and maintain a profit margin. To add to this they are behind on their Microsoft and Sony orders and I can’t imagine that either of those parties are thrilled at not meeting their Christmas season sales projections.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
51,416
In the current market AMD can’t sell their GPU’s at the price they have been and maintain a profit margin.
Please share with me the BOM costs that back that up. The fact is what you have read doed not impact current and future already contacted production.
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
Please share with me the BOM costs that back that up. The fact is what you have read doed not impact current and future already contacted production.
I was under the impression that TSMC scheduled their production runs annually so that their existing contracts were up in Q1 of 2021. But if that's not the case then I stand corrected, but given component shortages and material cost increases prices have to go up or production has to go down it can't really be both ways. This goes for NVidia too, but they have a larger margin on their parts traditionally so they may be able to eat a little more of that than AMD can.
 
Last edited:

DarkSideA8

Gawd
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
612
I was under the impression that TSMC scheduled their production runs annually so that their existing contracts were up in Q1 of 2021.
Presuming the contract was for a certain number of items produced - even if they generally renewed terms the first quarter of each year - they would be required to meet the terms of the existing contract (and failure to fulfill the terms is often more expensive than just sucking it up and making less than a new contract might offer)
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
Presuming the contract was for a certain number of items produced - even if they generally renewed terms the first quarter of each year - they would be required to meet the terms of the existing contract (and failure to fulfill the terms is often more expensive than just sucking it up and making less than a new contract might offer)
But its also reasonable that they have clauses in place for material cost fluctuations, raw material costs are up almost 50% in the last month due to greatly reduced output from China.
 

Marees

Gawd
Joined
Sep 28, 2018
Messages
893

2021: More of the same​

Unfortunately, even if AMD and Nvidia are able to ramp up production, the shortages we're experiencing now are likely to persist through the beginning of the year.

Far worse, however, may be price increases. Remember, vendors are already paying above MSRP to get graphics cards. Add the shipping costs for containers and consider that the limited air freight options are likely to get far worse as vaccine air shipments begin to compete—and you’re looking at potentially $100 to $150 in the increased price of a PC early next year.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/360...n-6000-shortages-hit-system-builders-too.html
 

Furious Nerd

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
3,076
Yay.. and of course all these increases are doubtful to go away as soon as COVID and production limitations are gone. If there's such demand during a pandemic when many are unemployed and struggling, GPU business knows they have the upper hand and can charge a lot and will still sell all they can... be it to miners, scalpers, random Chinese, or gamers, right? Can't imagine them just suddenly dropping prices in 6-18 months back to normal
 

sover

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
151
Yay.. and of course all these increases are doubtful to go away as soon as COVID and production limitations are gone. If there's such demand during a pandemic when many are unemployed and struggling, GPU business knows they have the upper hand and can charge a lot and will still sell all they can... be it to miners, scalpers, random Chinese, or gamers, right? Can't imagine them just suddenly dropping prices in 6-18 months back to normal
Part of what's driving the current market is also that there are cards at the high end worth buying for the first time in more than four years.

For people that bought a 1080ti four years ago the rtx 20 series wasn't worth it, and AMD didn't even try to compete in that market. For those of us that bought cheaper Pascal cards there were upgrades available, but none that made sense from a value perspective. When I buy a new video card I want to get a lot more performance at a similar price to the last card I bought, not the same performance I could have paid for when I bought the card I currently use at the same price I could have just paid a few years ago. For example the rtx 2060 had performance like a 1070, but wasn't cheaper than a 1070. If I wanted to get 1070 performance at 1070 price I would have just bought a 1070.

The 30 series is dealing with multiple problems: pent up demand, scalpers, and supply constraints. Those problems won't be solved until the supply constraints go, or something even more compelling is launched, and who knows when that will be.
 

Furious Nerd

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
3,076
Part of what's driving the current market is also that there are cards at the high end worth buying for the first time in more than four years.

For people that bought a 1080ti four years ago the rtx 20 series wasn't worth it, and AMD didn't even try to compete in that market. For those of us that bought cheaper Pascal cards there were upgrades available, but none that made sense from a value perspective. When I buy a new video card I want to get a lot more performance at a similar price to the last card I bought, not the same performance I could have paid for when I bought the card I currently use at the same price I could have just paid a few years ago. For example the rtx 2060 had performance like a 1070, but wasn't cheaper than a 1070. If I wanted to get 1070 performance at 1070 price I would have just bought a 1070.

The 30 series is dealing with multiple problems: pent up demand, scalpers, and supply constraints. Those problems won't be solved until the supply constraints go, or something even more compelling is launched, and who knows when that will be.
High end cards seemed to have been so much more reasonably priced years ago, too. The 3dfx 4500 was $170 for example. 6800 was $299, even the 6800 Ultra $499. Even the earlier pioneering Geforces such as TNT and Geforce 256 of the late 90s and early 2ks were ~$249. (sure, increase in minimum wages etc are a factor, but even during all those times at minimum wage I bet people had to work quite a bit less hours to afford a higher end card compared to the ridiculousness of ~2010-2020 card prices! :hungover:)
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
High end cards seemed to have been so much more reasonably priced years ago, too. The 3dfx 4500 was $170 for example. 6800 was $299, even the 6800 Ultra $499. Even the earlier pioneering Geforces such as TNT and Geforce 256 of the late 90s and early 2ks were ~$249. (sure, increase in minimum wages etc are a factor, but even during all those times at minimum wage I bet people had to work quite a bit less hours to afford a higher end card compared to the ridiculousness of ~2010-2020 card prices! :hungover:)
yeah but look at board complexity from those ones and look at the ones now.
 

Lakados

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
3,420
yes but also look at the market size now.
I’m not sure what that has to do with it, economy to scale only works to a point. R&D costs and spending have gone up a lot and that has to get added in somewhere. And sadly now that everything has gone public an “acceptable” profit margin must be maintained. They are just a lot more expensive to develop and build if you want to offer a competitive product. Developers push envelopes that requires hardware to match, none of that is cheap.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
51,416
Oh, you can bet the farm on it. Heck, Nvidia has already admitted selling to miners. "We care about gamers" What a crock of shite.
If AMD is selling to miners, it is still Elsmere GPUs. Which I am not sure anyone really cares about that in a gaming sense. Which goes along with what I said before...

Take into hashrate, power, and the 6800, mining sales are not going to be impacting AMD's 7nm products in any way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top