KickAssCop
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2003
- Messages
- 7,598
60 fps lol.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
AMD Intentionally Held Back from Competing with RTX 4090
- Thread starter sk3tch
- Start date
- Status
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
Right. So no point to be made. 60fps is still the pc gaming standard.
4090 isn't 4K60. It's a 4K120 card.
First let Nvidia have a $250 gpu that supports RTX. We'll talk of acceptable frame rates later
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
Just went and looked up the 3050. How disgusting is it that a pos like that is still $300+....
ATi..........
sirmonkey1985
[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 22,376
starting off i agree with everything else you said in your post. the only thing i want to add to this last part is while you're correct AMD's vizualization, API's, and SDK's are open source for game dev's the one draw back they have is the lack of support for it. they basically just say "here, you can use these for free but you have to do all the leg work to make it usable". that is where AMD has continued to fail because nvidia pretty much does all the hard work for you by automating a lot of the coding/implementation which locks a lot of developers into their ecosystem. this also has a trickle down effect on their enterprise hardware because they treat openCL the same way. if they really want to gain adoption they need to start putting money into developing the software and simplifying the process to use those API's for developers and the end users/science community.
and yet they didn't bother to go with the DP 2.1 support. that was one decision that made no sense considering the price of the card at. but i'm sure they'll include it on the 4090ti to justify the 2000+ dollar price tag they'll likely go with.
Mr. Bluntman
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2007
- Messages
- 6,766
The effed up part is, you're probably not wrong. There will be plenty of upper middle and upper class people buying these for nVIDIA to charge even more the next generation. If that's the case, I'm out of PC gaming, or will be running 2-4 generation old GPUs from here on out.
Nah, uh-uh... The 3060 should have *always been a $250-300 at most GPU* Considering the xx60 series has historically been at that price. Sure, inflation may make it $275-325, and that's fine. But no, a 3060 Ti STILL sells for upwars of $350-450. Unacceptable. This is unadulterated corporate greed. Some of you might say you're just jealous you can't afford one like I can... No! There are people that even with good jobs have responsibilities and mortgages, kids to feed... And let's not forget how insane the pricing on housing has become. So no, that argument falls on deaf ears with me.
Indeed. I still remember getting my GeForce 8800 GT back in the day for just shy of $250 with shipping. That thing was a beast. Now? You literally have to spend 3x that. No... Fuck right off with that shit.
AMD really doesn’t offer a lot of input into their open sources stuff and it pisses me off, they basically fuel that whole initiative with the free labor from volunteers and companies who need it for something they are doing then turn around and reap the rewards, it’s lazy on AMD’s part but it is also basically free so 0 effort required.
As for DP2.1 I’m still not seeing much in terms of availability there there’s a few screens but not nearly the amount I expected to see.
Usual_suspect
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2011
- Messages
- 248
As I see it, and as others have stated in this very thread: Nvidia delivers. They're continuously coming out with new features, that manage to cater to both consumers and businesses. AMD, ultimately, will never compete with Nvidia if its mindset is just delivering the best rasterization performance. I honestly hope AMD manages to get a one-two punch in on Nvidia, I was hoping it would come with this current gen of GPU's, but those hopes went up in smoke--especially when I saw the technically inferior 4070Ti best the 7900XT in terms of sales and features. At this point, with DLSS 3.0, the 7000-series honestly just isn't going to properly stack up against the 40-series, even with FSR 3.0. The adoption rate, and the fact that Nvidia's pushing DLSS 3.0 hard only means that FSR 3.0 is going to take some time to gain traction, and by that time DLSS 3.0 will have already been improved upon.
One bit of information that I've gleaned from reading these kinds of threads, and being in the mix myself is--AMD fans have a very tribalist mentality. They'll defend AMD to their very core, while shunning anything Intel and/or Nvidia do, regardless of if it's beneficial or not. RT? It's useless, it's niche, it cuts performance in half, it doesn't even look that good, etc. DLSS? FSR's better, it's free, and has even benefitted Nvidia cards that Nvidia left to rot, too much ghosting, and artifacts, the performance gains aren't as good, etc. Frame Generation? Adds too much latency, creates ghosting, the gains aren't real, etc. these are actual things I've read throughout the past five years, and still see to this day. It's almost as bad as the Linux vs Windows posts that I always tend to see.
Nvidia delivers on pushing GPU technology, while they do stir a lot of shit, for the past 10+ years they've been continuously delivering the go-to product for the best experience across the board. It seems like AMD just doesn't want it as badly as Nvidia does. Yes, AMD produces good hardware, I'm not going to lie, the 7900-series cards are solid cards, same as the 6800/6900XT cards, all very solid performers, but what pulled me away from team red even with these kinds of wins was lack of features, AMD just doesn't have anything that's as good as Nvidia's solutions. Another thing, everyone's quick to call Nvidia greedy, I know I was when I was vehemently defending AMD, but at the end of the day, Nvidia, much like AMD and Intel, is a business, they're here to win your dollar, and if protecting their investments ensures they can continue to get your hard earned dollars, more power to them, it's their right. Another thing, as others have pointed out, if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm very sure AMD would be pulling the same stuff--ultimately neither of them is your friend, they exist to create products for you and me to buy; it just so happens though that Nvidia managed to create better features and invest into themselves enough to win me back from team red this time around.
That's another thing I'm continuously seeing--people bitching about this generation being woefully overpriced, and I agree, a 4070Ti shouldn't cost $800. Considering the facts though: recession, cost of manufacturing going up, R&D bills getting bigger and bigger, marketing requiring more money, and ultimately us consumers showing that we were willing to shell out big money during the shortages, it was only a matter of time until GPU's got this expensive, and it's not like Nvidia, nor AMD can leave money on the table. If they tried to price it like they priced the 30-series/6000-series, they probably would have had investors jumping down their throats. Ultimately I blame this on us, the consumers. We showed a willingness to spend $1000 on a mid-tier card such as a 3070/6800, so what business, in their right mind, would want to leave that potential on the table? AMD pulled the same shit with their 7900XT and XTX cards, granted they are priced a lot more competitively to Nvidia's solutions as they have to be, but the difference was Nvidia at least produced new features for gamers to utilize such as Frame Generation and Reflex. Honestly, I think within the next year the market will balance out once the full product stack is released, 30-series cards start running dry, and we'll start seeing price drops across the board for the 4080 on down.
One bit of information that I've gleaned from reading these kinds of threads, and being in the mix myself is--AMD fans have a very tribalist mentality. They'll defend AMD to their very core, while shunning anything Intel and/or Nvidia do, regardless of if it's beneficial or not. RT? It's useless, it's niche, it cuts performance in half, it doesn't even look that good, etc. DLSS? FSR's better, it's free, and has even benefitted Nvidia cards that Nvidia left to rot, too much ghosting, and artifacts, the performance gains aren't as good, etc. Frame Generation? Adds too much latency, creates ghosting, the gains aren't real, etc. these are actual things I've read throughout the past five years, and still see to this day. It's almost as bad as the Linux vs Windows posts that I always tend to see.
Nvidia delivers on pushing GPU technology, while they do stir a lot of shit, for the past 10+ years they've been continuously delivering the go-to product for the best experience across the board. It seems like AMD just doesn't want it as badly as Nvidia does. Yes, AMD produces good hardware, I'm not going to lie, the 7900-series cards are solid cards, same as the 6800/6900XT cards, all very solid performers, but what pulled me away from team red even with these kinds of wins was lack of features, AMD just doesn't have anything that's as good as Nvidia's solutions. Another thing, everyone's quick to call Nvidia greedy, I know I was when I was vehemently defending AMD, but at the end of the day, Nvidia, much like AMD and Intel, is a business, they're here to win your dollar, and if protecting their investments ensures they can continue to get your hard earned dollars, more power to them, it's their right. Another thing, as others have pointed out, if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm very sure AMD would be pulling the same stuff--ultimately neither of them is your friend, they exist to create products for you and me to buy; it just so happens though that Nvidia managed to create better features and invest into themselves enough to win me back from team red this time around.
That's another thing I'm continuously seeing--people bitching about this generation being woefully overpriced, and I agree, a 4070Ti shouldn't cost $800. Considering the facts though: recession, cost of manufacturing going up, R&D bills getting bigger and bigger, marketing requiring more money, and ultimately us consumers showing that we were willing to shell out big money during the shortages, it was only a matter of time until GPU's got this expensive, and it's not like Nvidia, nor AMD can leave money on the table. If they tried to price it like they priced the 30-series/6000-series, they probably would have had investors jumping down their throats. Ultimately I blame this on us, the consumers. We showed a willingness to spend $1000 on a mid-tier card such as a 3070/6800, so what business, in their right mind, would want to leave that potential on the table? AMD pulled the same shit with their 7900XT and XTX cards, granted they are priced a lot more competitively to Nvidia's solutions as they have to be, but the difference was Nvidia at least produced new features for gamers to utilize such as Frame Generation and Reflex. Honestly, I think within the next year the market will balance out once the full product stack is released, 30-series cards start running dry, and we'll start seeing price drops across the board for the 4080 on down.
Mr. Bluntman
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2007
- Messages
- 6,766
Your faith in the free market is, from a capitalist's perspective, admirable. The realist in me shits all over the notion that the market will self-correct. Time and time again, if a corporation knows it has a large enough market share where it can bully others and set the tone (*cough* *cough* Intel in the CPU space *cough* *cough*), it will wholly abuse its market leader position. And nVIDIA has shown it no longer cares about being an affordable option, they're leaving their table scraps for AMD/ATi and by a minor extent Intel. They're definitely taking cues from Apple now in regards to their design, proprietary walled garden ecosystem and pricing. So no, I think GPUs, without stiff competition from AMD, Intel, and perhaps a fourth player (I know I'm dreaming, but still) all but the top 20% will be priced out of PC gaming unless something changes.
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
Yup. Nvidia for a while now has been showing they aren't interested in gamers wanting to be even a bit frugal while buying a new gpu.
Sure. They "deliver". To those generous with their wallets. They're after the margins now, and sadly AMD is accepting this and just going along for the ride. All while the consumer base enables it. Don't really see how this would ever self correct at this pace.
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
Yet, how's that going for Intel now?
Competence talks at the end of the day, no matter what other games you play.
'Nvidia Bad!' isn't gonna cut it for AMD.
Nor is simply 'being dicks' for Nvidia, without also delivering the goods, as you reminded us Intel showed.
Last edited:
The Apple-Nvidia analogy is actually a very good one. Proprietary closed market development and Eco-structure. Unfortunately, it only goes so far. There are many players in the smart phone business- only two and a half (three?) in GPU business. For all it's draw backs, I will pick an iPhone up when iOS is no longer available for my current iPhone (8 plus). Why? The hardware and more importantly - security (read closed eco-system) are beneficial here.
Into FPS games, too old to keep up on the latest twitch shooter.. AMD 7900XTX raster performance fits the bill nicely. Should I want to experiment with something new and dabble in RT, it will work fine. Just nothing there really interests me or has for years. Been nothing but pleased with the 7900XTX. Zero driver issues, zero hardware issues, zero coil whine, flawless so far actually. Pretty much knew that would be the case as my R9290s served me very well. Driver issues blah blah, whatever - I go with personal experience and knowledge. Maybe I'm not the typical gamer looking for all the latest and greatest eye candy, for me raster is still king - but wholeheartedly agree - AMD competing against the 4090 is a big waste of time and effort.
I don't think AMD is "giving up". The time is not right for AMD to enter the "halo" card market vs Nvidia. You all expounding the Nvidia proprietary tech just re-enforce this point of view. RT tech and standards are still in it's infancy and developing, let Nvidia spend all it's capital on initial development. After the open standards shake out, I think we will see more of an even playing field.
Into FPS games, too old to keep up on the latest twitch shooter.. AMD 7900XTX raster performance fits the bill nicely. Should I want to experiment with something new and dabble in RT, it will work fine. Just nothing there really interests me or has for years. Been nothing but pleased with the 7900XTX. Zero driver issues, zero hardware issues, zero coil whine, flawless so far actually. Pretty much knew that would be the case as my R9290s served me very well. Driver issues blah blah, whatever - I go with personal experience and knowledge. Maybe I'm not the typical gamer looking for all the latest and greatest eye candy, for me raster is still king - but wholeheartedly agree - AMD competing against the 4090 is a big waste of time and effort.
I don't think AMD is "giving up". The time is not right for AMD to enter the "halo" card market vs Nvidia. You all expounding the Nvidia proprietary tech just re-enforce this point of view. RT tech and standards are still in it's infancy and developing, let Nvidia spend all it's capital on initial development. After the open standards shake out, I think we will see more of an even playing field.
Last edited:
EmerilLIVE
n00b
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
- Messages
- 63
The 8800 GT launched at $349, which is about $500 adjusted for inflation. I'm pretty sure a major factor in price drops from that launch price was the great recession. It was a great card & eventually priced well, but nVidia would have kept the price high if they could have.
Mr. Bluntman
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2007
- Messages
- 6,766
No... I distinctly remember spending about $265 for my card in March 2008. The 8800 GTS 320MB was $349... Not the 8800 GT....
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
and yeah I think I got it for $325sirmonkey1985
[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 22,376
it launched at 249. with the custom cards being in the 275-300 dollar range but they quickly dropped to ~200 within 6-8 months.
the price hikes really started with the GTX series where the 260 was priced at 399 then cut to 299 when ATi/AMD undercut the crap out of them with the HD4k series and was competitive against the GTX2xx series..
Last edited:
Armenius
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2014
- Messages
- 36,998
There are really only 2.5 players in the cell phone market, too: Qualcomm, Apple, and MediaTek. To say there are many players in the smartphone business is to say that ASUS, Gigabyte, PNY, and all the other add-in board companies are players in the GPU market rather than NVIDIA, AMD, and Intel.
EmerilLIVE
n00b
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
- Messages
- 63
Guess that'll teach me for trusting TechPowerUp's GPU database, it lists the launch price at $349.
Armenius
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2014
- Messages
- 36,998
There is a "Report an Error" button on the top-right of the page, if it works. Even TPU's own review lists the correct $249 price.
Sir Beregond
Gawd
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2020
- Messages
- 713
The real price hikes were after Fermi when mid-range silicon was being priced and branded high end. GTX 680 at $499, GTX 980 at $549, GTX 1080 at $599/$699 (FE), and the RTX 2080 at $699/$799 (FE). At least in the past you got the big silicon for this price. All these cards mentioned were using mid-range x04 silicon.
Of course we can definitely contribute lack of real competition from AMD's high end as part of the reason this happened. The original 7970 being beaten out by Nvidia's mid-range silicon certainly didn't help. And then Kepler got sandbagged so hard until the R9 290X upset the Titan and you finally got the full silicon GK110 card (780 Ti). But after that it was largely no real competition until RDNA2 and that never sparked a price war given the rest of what happened during the Ampere/RDNA2 gen.
Last edited:
DukenukemX
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Messages
- 6,881
AMD's main problem isn't Ray-Tracing performance or lack of features, though Ray-Tracing performance isn't helping. AMD's problem is pricing, and it's been pricing since R9 290. AMD doesn't price based on market demand, they base it on Nvidia, who is pricing it to the moon. You can find a 4070 TI and 7900 XT for MSRP or lower because nobody is paying that much for those cards.
Nobody cares or should care about DLSS and FSR. Also FSR can be used in any game, so it doesn't make sense to compare the two in terms of adoption.
You'll find that to be equal with AMD, Nvidia, and Intel fans.
So you don't like criticism unless it's coming from you?
I think AMD and Nvidia are price fixing but that's just my tin foil hat talking.
What features? They both do the same crap.
Oh please, they're all greedy and that includes AMD and Nvidia.
AMD is pulling the same stuff as Nvidia, the only difference is Nvidia is more effective at it.
Pricing their products that high is more of a detriment to them than their customers. Yes it sucks to buy a $800 GPU, but people aren't doing it. Nvidia sales are significantly down, as is AMD's. This just creates deflation eventually because most consumers will just continue to use what they got. I'm going to continue to use my Vega 56 at 1080p because I haven't had a reason to upgrade. It also helps that the PS5 performs like a GTX 1060 or 1070 Ti which is now the standard for PC games for a while. How many people forgot that when the crypto crash of 2017 happened that the GTX 1060's and RX 480's were just $100 used on Ebay? Right now a RTX 3060 is less than $300 used on Ebay, which tells me the GPU market still hasn't crashed yet, which it will.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxLlk8SGLiC3UPry4v3c4TaINUwx-QG33q
No please stop. You can't blame consumers for shitty GPU prices. The fault on this is AMD and Nvidia who sold these GPU's directly to miners, and Nvidia who limited the mining capability of their GPU's because they also sold mining only GPU's, which is a waste of silicon right now. That fault extends to AIB's who profited heavily from this and currently have warehouses full of GPU's they refuse to sell because it would be at a discount.
As time goes on Intel will get better at making GPU's and we'll start to see more competition in the APU market between AMD and Intel. China even has their hand in the GPU market with PowerVR based graphic cards being made. Sure these products aren't very good compared to AMD and Nvidia, but they will get better and have comparable performance to some of their products.
Yes. The way people hate in leather jacket man and love Lisa most likely believe if the tables were turned, AMD would still be the same company we know today.
ZeroBarrier
Gawd
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2011
- Messages
- 837
Funny enough, AMD isn't even the company they think it was. They just refuse to take of the AMD colored glasses.
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
The classic deflection of whenever Nvidia get's called out on crappy practices.
"But AMD would do the same!"
Yeah, probably. Then we'd be talking about how crappy they are and not Nvidia. But that's not reality. So who cares about hypothetical what ifs? Nvidia is the driver at the wheel for the gpu market, with all the accolades and criticisms that entails.
Every. Single. Time. "Oh, but AMD isn't your friend either". Who says they are? How does that disprove that Nvidia is being crappy? If anything, it agrees. Call me up when AMD is driving this bullshit. I'll be right there calling it out.
"But AMD would do the same!"
Yeah, probably. Then we'd be talking about how crappy they are and not Nvidia. But that's not reality. So who cares about hypothetical what ifs? Nvidia is the driver at the wheel for the gpu market, with all the accolades and criticisms that entails.
Every. Single. Time. "Oh, but AMD isn't your friend either". Who says they are? How does that disprove that Nvidia is being crappy? If anything, it agrees. Call me up when AMD is driving this bullshit. I'll be right there calling it out.
Exactly the point I was going to make. As usual, AMD is simply unable to compete with NVIDIA on the high-end and just doesn't want to admit that.
We've seen plenty of examples over the years of AMD charging just as much for CPU's and more for chipsets than Intel at times. It would absolutely charge as much as NVIDIA for GPU's if it wasn't constantly behind the performance curve.
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
The point is we never get to talk about it because AMD is still trying to tie their shoes so they can get out the door - but you don't wanna talk about that either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Of course they have, they released the 295x2 (which was impressive) in 2013? For $1500? Also…. I did pickup and AMD cpu for my Clevo style build in 2005…. Shit wasn’t cheap.
Attachments
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
Why would I care about that? AMD doesn't get the opportunity to be an asshole. That's.....bad? Idk? Oh no, they sell me a cheaper card. The horrors.
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
Funny way to frame AMD's incompetence, but okay.........
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
Lol. The same deflections. Whatever. It's all cool, we can agree on other things at least.
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
You keep framing it as charity on AMD's part, not ineptitude
Even if you didn't believe they were incompetent, them being a charity is much more unbelievable
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
No. I never said ANYTHING about either. I only stated what I see as a consumer. They offer a cheaper card for my use. That is ALL I care about. I do not care what the reason is.
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
OK 
ZeroBarrier
Gawd
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2011
- Messages
- 837
Then let me ask why Nvidia was even brought up in a thread that's main topic is AMD? Oh wait, the shoe is on the other foot now...
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
Nvidia is literally in the topic. Competing with the 4090 is stated.
ZeroBarrier
Gawd
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2011
- Messages
- 837
I'm talking about the company, not their product. Why is anyone bringing up Nvidia's business practices or pricing in a thread who's topic is AMD supposedly holding back on competing on performance with the 4090.
You knew what I meant, yet you chose to ignore the actual question to deflect.
NightReaver
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2017
- Messages
- 2,902
The original topic literally references the 4090 price point. Business practices affect price points. For whatever reason AMD didn't feel like attempting a $1600 gpu. Discussing why gpus are at that price is going to be relevant.
staknhalo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
Like lack of competition being a reason? I thought we didn't care?
- Status