AMD CEO Confirms 7nm Navi High-End Radeon RX Graphics Cards and 4thGen Ryzen CPUs For Notebooks

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Design1stcode2nd, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Well by the same token they can just adjust a little and call it a day...
    Nvidia taking in a much larger drop in price is that much more difficult of a decision.
    For AMD the road is up either way, as they control little, the decision is easier. Its a gamble, but much less so.
     
  2. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    How is it unrealistic, when they just did it in servers. ? They may or may not do it, but is complete bullshit to argue there's is no merit in having competition going for the hills in a price war for market share.
    Sounds like advice from nvidia inverstors really: Dear AMD, don't price war us.. we dominate the market, AND love our high prices... Be happy with your peanuts.
     
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  3. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Way different market segment. I'm betting charging > $7k in a segmetlnt like that is still netting them a good profit margin and it's much more difficult to get people (companies) to switch from Intel to AMD in these instances, where converting normal of users from Nvidia to AMD doesn't require as much convincing and the margins on 7nm are going to be what they are. I don't have the #, but check pricing on Radeon vii as an example... If they could have priced that lower it would have killed the mid market, but they couldn't.
     
  4. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's worse than no merit, it's a bonehead, money losing "strategy" in GPUs.

    It's NOT like Servers where AMD had no dog in the race, so absolutely nothing to lose.

    For GPUs, AMD still has something like 30% of the GPU card market, along with significantly lower profit margin, significantly lower revenue, and significantly lower net profit than NVidia,.

    An aggressive price war would likely turn AMDs small net profit into a net loss and gain them nothing, as NVidia responds in kind (something they have a history of doing, but Intel doesn't). NVidia might earn less profit during the price war, but they won't go into the red like AMD

    AMD vs Intel is NOTHING like AMD vs NVidia. Don't look to recent AMD vs Intel history to predict the GPU future, look to to recent AMD vs NVidia history (should be obvious).
     
  5. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'd say it's the exact opposite. Nvidia has probably sold the majority of 2080Ti that they are going to. As sales slow down, they need to do somerhing to keep them from sitting on shelves. That usually goes hand in hand with a price drop.

    AMD on the other hand would want to maximize profits with any new release. Always being late to the party hinders them imo.
     
  6. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Something to remember- not picking on you- is that Intel cannot price aggressively, because they'd kill AMD in a quarter. Intel has to keep their prices a little higher specifically to avoid killing AMD- if they kill AMD, then they get chopped up by regulators.

    Nvidia has no such restriction; they're restrained only by investors, and pushing AMD completely out of the market- which would not run afoul of regulators- would be expensive, especially since Nvidia owns the higher-end. Nvidia almost exclusively competes with their own products, their newer products competing to replace their older products, and they can generally ignore AMD safely given AMD's reluctance to actually compete.


    Now, if Nvidia and Intel wanted terminate AMD together, they damn well could- Intel would take graphics, Nvidia would take the x86 license (which Intel would begrudgingly allow because they must have competition), and we'd go to Intel and Nvidia competing with each others' hands on the opposites' throat.

    I don't know if that would be good or bad; but AMD existing and pushing products does occasionally have a positive effect. Perhaps Big Navi will be one of those.
     
  7. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

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    Anyone know what a hypothetical BoM would be for 5900 XT vs Turing (2080 Ti).
     
  8. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    People just project their wants, rather than reality and reason. Like when everyone was hoping the rtx 20x0 series was going to come down in price after the 'mining craze' was over. No, they where says going to try to keep pricing have the and AMD failing to deliver a real competitor gave them the very reason to do so. People just want a 2080ti cheaper and know Nvidia isn't going to do it anytime soon so are hoping AMD will. They won't, ev n if it's just as fast it won't be 1/2 the price, it'll be 80-90% the price just like to 5700 & 5700xt.
     
  9. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    No clue, I wish they would release some of that, but I Nvidia is super secret on that and 5700/xt haven't been out long enough to really know.
     
  10. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Every once in a while they get something good... Just very inconsistent and it's hard to sustain against much larger companies. Easy for their top talent to get bought out and their competitors with vast reserves can typically come back quickly before to much damage is done.
     
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  11. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Except that for this day, the AMD / RTG company we are seeing is not the AMD / ATI of old. Those folks that got bought out were a drag on RTG's ability to do well. Yes, I could be wrong but, we will see. As for vast resources, they does not mean as much as it once did and even then, you still need good people to do the job.
     
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  12. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No one here would literally know and to be honest, if someone here officially knew and reported it, they would end up losing their job.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  13. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hahaha. I love that.
     
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  14. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    You do realize that your rumors are based off of anything, while the ones we are discussing, have factual basis and tons of probability behind them. People are not making it up, if the CEO is the one letting it known they are imminent.

    Sound to me, like a ton of butthurt people unable to see the truth. That AMD went ahead and design a new Gaming GPU architecture (RDNA) that are 100% Gamer based. And RDNA is taking the Industry by storm.



    The "RTX On" hoax is dead....
     
  15. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    Keep this thread on track.
     
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  16. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Oh, I agree they are not the same group and think they as well as the CPU team are doing great. I hope they can sustain it and looks like they have some solid products. They just need to captitalize on it and get a steady revenue stream to maintain their competitiveness.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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  17. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Assuming they stick with with DDR6 memory, the BOM will be very similar.

    AMD perf/transistor is very similar to NVidias right at the moment, and the cost per transistor is very similar between the processes. The net result is there very similar die cost for similar performance.

    I'd give the slight edge to AMD, but it isn't enough of an edge to wage a price war with, especially since by the time AMDs 2080Ti "killer", ships, it will be near end of life for 2080Ti and NVida can sell them at clearout prices, having reaped high margins already for most of the products life to already recoup the upfront costs and deliver a nice overall profit that part.

    Being first to market by a year (or more) at a new performance tier is a huge advantage from the overall profit perspective.
     
  18. Design1stcode2nd

    Design1stcode2nd Gawd

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    AMD if they release a 2080Ti equivalent will need to price it under Nvidia for a number of reasons. One the 2080Ti has been out a while already so they are late to the game. Two it will not have Ray Tracing; even if that isn't a big draw now you don't pay similar money from the smaller company for less features. I'd say $849 would be the logical price with partner cards going up from there. Three driver support, Nvidia just has more resources to get drivers out faster and to work with game developers.
     
  19. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    Four, Nvidia resale value. It's been amazing especially past few years. Recovering 90-95% of original purchase price two years later is a phenomenon that's hard to hate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  20. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    B
    By that logic the last few years AMD cards were often going for more than paid for.... Mostly to miners because the AMD cards were good at it :). It's very easy for me to havte this phenomenon, inflating prices are driving used prices up. The 1080ti is only worth so much because the replacement costs way to much... So if you love Nvidia raising prices so your current card is worth more, then good on you. Keep asking Nvidia to inflate prices so you can get 90% on your hardware then pay 30-40% more for the same tier hardware at upgrade.
     
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  21. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    We actually don't know this. Logically, Big Navi should have ray tracing, but AMD isn't known for their logic.
     
  22. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Depends on when Big Navi drops. If it is this year, then it probably won't have Ray Tracing, but the further into next year, the more likely you get Ray Tracing.

    Though I expect we will see an even smaller Navi first (1660 Ti competitor), since that is the volume market, a small chip that is easy to make, and no pressure to have Ray Tracing.

    It makes sense to wait until the Ray Tracing tech is ready before they do Big Navi, so another driver to have it later, rather than sooner.
     
  23. Chimpee

    Chimpee [H]ard|Gawd

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    I kinda having a hard time seeing AMD putting Ray Tracing for big Navi as GPU development take years to plan out.
     
  24. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    For me, the only reason I accept that ray tracing isn't in the 5700 is that it's a mid-sized GPU and it simply wouldn't be fast enough- and the cost to produce would go up. However, I would absolutely argue that AMD has it ready, as it's going into the consoles, and those parts are done.

    For Big Navi, there is no argument where it makes sense to not include ray tracing hardware. AMD will get panned by reviewers and consumers alike, and customers will leave the cards sitting on shelves.

    The only counter to that is that AMD rarely makes sense.
     
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  25. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    I don't think RT makes that much sense for AMD at this point, its an expensive feature with next to no support and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I'm not sold that it will take off anytime in the next 5 years either.

    I guess there is 11 titles, but SOTTR missed the boat by patching it in so late, Quake 2 doesn't really matter.

    I agree it will change the industry in time, but its not the killer feature AMD needs to fill its war chest until next generation.
     
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  26. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It has to come some time, and consoles are supposed to get it next year, so it makes sense that big Navi next year would have it as well.
     
  27. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Next-gen consoles will have it, Nvidia will push it to lower price teirs with Ampere- even if it's completely useless on the desktop- and it is provably useful today, but even if- AMD would be consciously conceding every market segment above the low end if they don't include hardware support with Big Navi.

    Because AMD will lose the marketing battle hard. Well, notably harder than usual, to the point that headlines will be saying 'Don't buy this'.

    Which is what any reasoned enthusiast will also be saying. It's looking like it's live or die here for AMDs GPUs.
     
  28. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    So far your RT predictions have been totally bunk.
     
  29. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I haven't made any, care to quote?
     
  30. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    I don't care enough to dig through the forums, but we've come to a head over it before. Suffice to say my original stance is still correct, its an early tech that we won't be seeing used by the majority of the market for at least another year, likely 2 to 3, (making that two+ years since launch of nVidia RTX) that has barely better than tech demo support today.

    It will be a game changer, but not until much later.

    AMD will have a solution as they provide the GPU's for consoles, it isn't critical to a card they should be launching shortly.

    *The point would be, nVidia is charging a massive premium for RTX due to Tensor cores, if AMD can undercut that premium by not having RTX, delivering 2080ti performance on current and most future games, they have a winner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  31. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm not disputing this. The point is that people keep their video cards for that long, and thus would foolish to buy a higher-end GPU without RT hardware.
     
  32. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    Problem is that RTX performance comes at a large cost for no products to use it on. That is where AMD can cut nVidia.

    Also I don't think people hold onto GPU's long enough that RTX will really matter, if your in Halo products, your probably already waiting for the next halo product.

    *I'll go even further, the performance hit with RTX isn't the greatest either, though that is hard to test with almost nothing to test it on, but it won't be nothing (ever) and if you'r like me using a halo card, you want minimum 60 fps at 4k, ideally 100-144hz at some level of 1440 (I use 3440/1440 when not on 4k) so the RTX hit isn't justified in current titles. That is why RTX really doesn't matter till next gen.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  33. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Not sure I would call it logical or not. They calculate risks and act accordingly. It's a risk to implement it if games dont start using it well, and it's a risk to not implement it because the opposite (games come out that really utilize it well in what're tier it releases). I think it's less of a risk if they don't support it, not just because there are few games, but they can easily have a slightly lower price to Nvidia and still sell well. If they do support it and can't drop price due to higher mfg costs... They don't leave an easy out. Just because you don't like a decision doesn't make it good or bad. And I do agree they haven't always made the best decisions, but it's not like every decision they make is wrong. Chiplets are working well, 5700 series is a much needed step in the right direction. Bulldozer, well, obviously they thought it would work better than it did, but you know how some things look good in theory and then suck in real life... Lol, that was a great example of things not coming together we'll, doubly so because Intel's duo was such a good upgrade from the P4.
     
  34. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Depends on the people, but I see a lot of people that can afford top of the line upgrade often, and others with tighter budgets stretch out longer (just generalizing based on my experiences). So, mid level cards with rtx are useless (besides gpu binning to sell not fully functional boards), and a lot (not everyone) of guys with 2080ti are going to put them up for sale when a 3080ti comes out and get little to no use from the rtx. And as you can see by others in this thread who own halo cards, they rather the frames than the rt. The biggest benefit is having actual hardware to use to develop games for the next generation (of games and hardware).
     
  35. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Which has been proven to be false.

    Given that the above is false, this is where AMD may be able to offer value, if they're willing to significantly undercut Nvidia, should they ship Big Navi without hardware RT.

    This is your opinion, and is absolutely true for some- but most tend to keep GPUs longer.

    I'll give you a counter-example: one of the poor implementations is BF:V. If I had an RTX GPU, I'd be leaving RTX off for multiplayer, but I'd be keeping it on for the 'Campaign' modes or whatever. Whether I'd use RTX would be a personal, case-by-case thing; what would not be up for debate is that I'd want it on the GPU vs. not, and I'd be willing to pay for that.
     
  36. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    'Good' or 'bad' here isn't about me liking it- if AMD doesn't get more competitive in the GPU space, they're going to get crushed. That I wouldn't like, but it seems like a road they're determined to tread.

    With the 5700, I almost agree- with the 5700XT, I expect the Nvidia competitors to age better.

    Big Navi? Dead on arrival without hardware RT.

    And that's not based on whether there are games or not; that's based on the games coming and Nvidia shipping the hardware. If AMD doesn't, their parts are going to be ignored.
     
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  37. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    Definitely not doa either way as long as it's priced accordingly. I would easily give up rtx to save a few $ and I'm not the only one. I more interested in the 5700 than the XT myself, but that is mostly a budget thing. But, most card purchases are low/mid cards, where AMD competes very well, and with Nvidia pushing up prices, it actually gives AMD a bit more breathing room than in the past. Including or not including rtx isn't going to be the end of AMD, a few people whoost likely weren't going to buy anyways will complain, others will enjoy saving a few $ and getting decent frame rates. I'm way more interested in the mid range which may be why our views differ vastly, because my expectations are much lower :)
     
  38. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If you're already paying ~US$700+, what's another US$50 to be current on features?

    Then you're not interested, but many are- again, we're talking above the 5700XT, not in that space or below it.
     
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  39. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I haven't made a claim pertaining to performance.
     
  40. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    Sorry I got stuck in an old argument with you (you could say I read one point and connected to old topics)

    the 12 titles including future releases hardly make a must buy catalog. I guess other than that we are on the same page, if Navi can undercut without RTX features its a win for AMD. Its not hard to significantly undercut the market when nVidia has pushed prices up so significantly. I still don't think they will, but it is the one instance they likely could.