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Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Design1stcode2nd, Jul 31, 2019.
HBM was supposed to be cheaper, but you know, AMD and planning
Lisa are leaving for IBM it seem, so AMD will probably go to hell soon, it is uncommon to have 2 good CEOs in a row.
she already tweeted it was fake. like some one else posted, sounds more like a failed attempt to crash the stock.
AMD CEO Lisa Su rumored to leave, eyeing CEO role at IBM - Link to the post with the twitter response from Lisa Su.
Okay it is a strange world we have made, poor SOB's having to fix it.
Yep, AMD made a gamble on HBM and it didn't turn out the way they expected. At least some HBM implementations show tangible real world improvements which is more than nVidia can say about their RTX implementation.
Some of those HBM implementations that show tangible improvements are from Nvidia- and RTX shows several orders of magnitude of improvements over using general shaders for DXR- and AMD doesn't even support that!
Oh, I really want to see the proof of these "several orders of magnitude improvements" from RTX. And just how many games have these "orders of magnitude improvements"?
It's "1" order of magnitude in Raw Ray Tracing power. You get about 10 "gigarays" out of a 2080Ti and 1 "gigaray" out of 1080Ti.
Navi can technically do ray tracing. It just not worth the effort, similar to nvidia's effort.
I miss the socket a days with mobile and desktop interchangeability. I don't want a 4th Gen mobile ryzen chip, I want a ryzen 3200m.
You mean, where games are running quite playably on an RTX card, the AMD card would still be spitting out a slide show?
Yes, we're aware
While the convenience is certainly attractive, it should be said that forcing such a form factor on both mobile and desktop systems would result in compromises that would be rather much not ideal for both.
I was thinking more about doing it in software and not shaders, as I'm comparing to AMD and they don't support using shaders for ray tracing, vs. hardware with current games for a more real-world look, as well as Quake II RTX for the 'raw' comparison.
Then we'll be talking about AMDs 'seconds per frame' rather than 'frames per second'
hmmm tempting... how much extra for the R12 factory?
I argue because fanbois think AMD will somehow miraculously release a 2080ti killer (or insert new 2080ti of tomorrow) and charge $700, that is way more of a illlogical leap than the assumption that AMD will only slightly undercut nVidia's pricing due to multiple factors:
1. R&D costs of making that 2080TI killer.
2. The high bar has already been set, and unless the market rejects nVidia's high bar, it is the new normal for pricing.
3. The stakeholders demand reasonable and prudent action from the C-Suite which includes pricing appropriately. This rolls back to item 1, which is the recovery of R&D cost and 2 which is the current market price. If you are going to undercut the market by almost 50% then you are going to need some magic numbers to prevent legal action against the board for throwing away profits of a publicly traded company.
in all seriousness, you are right. people that dont get to see how the money flows in a manufacturing plant have a harder time understanding what you are talking about. add in fandom plus a buyers perspective and the expectations become completely unrealistic.
All fair points, AMD have a history of trying to slightly undercut NVidia, so I do agree it probably won't be $700 bucks giving how Nvidia pricing.
Be a part of the solution then, reject Nvidias pricing by not buying.
That barely worked in the 90's when the market place was much smaller than today, the reality is NA is not the only consumer anymore. With global markets comes global demands and increased cost, it is Economics 101. I doubt we would hit enough critical mass to impact anything, now I'm not saying there isn't a ceiling on the price of GPUs or any other good. Is the ceiling $1400 CAN? Maybe, there are a lot of 2080ti's sitting on the shelf here, but we also have a localized recession here.
Given that broader market, I'm going to buy what meets the crossroad of performance I want (maximum) and amount I can spend (probably $1,500 every 2 years). Not everyone can spend what I spend, and plenty of people can spend more. At the end of the day I don't buy the 'don't buy it and they will drop the price' argument, market is just too large.
Nvidia could put out a US$20,000 consumer GPU and people would buy it for at least three reasons-
The price makes sense for the performance
The performance is needed
And there'd be nothing wrong with it.
They really, really don't. When AMD feels that they have a superior product, they price over Nvidia, every time. As well they should.
That just doesn't happen very often.
I do agree AMD will price higher than Nvidia when it can, but I do believe they will only do it when their entire product stack is superior to Nvidia in every way, generally that means when they grab the performance crown by a good margin which they haven't done in a while.
fun fact... if the setup fees associated with production cost them enough, there is only so much you can cut pricing. the method you propose is intended to starve a company into desperation. if you really want the cost to come down, you want more people buy them applying just enough demand to make them run more. too much demand, and it drives the value up as they wouldnt be able to keep up. the more often consumers buy another video card, the cheaper tehy become.
one of the factors that is screwing us was the crypto craze, more people than ever bought a top end (or close enough to it) card, that the usual purchase cycle is messed up. everybody i know upgraded all at once.
I think that's fair- it's so rare for them to be in that position that it's hard to really draw from history.
Oh wow, loyalty blinds truth for +100
I have no loyalty. I've owned and enjoyed GPU's from every manufacturer that has made them in the 3D era. my only loyalty is to performance.
I'm merely stating the obvious. If big navi able to play with 2080ti comes out in 2020, it wont be competing with the 2080ti, which will be two years old at that point in time. It will be competing with whatever Nvidia names the 2xxx series successor.
Yep and that is AMD’s competitive problem in a nutshell.
What, the fact that they have turned a company around in record time and there is no end in sight? Wish I had those kind of problems.
While I don’t know if they are at the end, the history of AMD doesn’t really scream sustained gains.
This seems like a little bit too much doom and gloom, but you are right that it only gets more difficult from here on out.
As Intel recovers from their 10nm fiasco, they will come roaring back. AMD really needs to cement whatever market share gains they can get now before that happens, and keep up with their rapid performance improvement generation over generation or once Intel sorts out their process they are going to be in trouble again.
AMD's future depends on making enough money now while they have the chance in the CPU space and reinvest it in R&D to secure their presence in the market going forward.
That's just me painting one of the more probable future possibilities for The Faithful. I'd tell them to find another religion, but... well, they stuck with AMD through Bulldozer, so I doubt anything less than liquidation would phase them
You do get a sense that a sleeping giant has been awoken,.and the counterpunch will be considerable. And consumers the main beneficiaries.
Their history does not matter, since they are no longer living in the past. I have seen no end in sight for their gains and Navi is just one of those upward indications.
The blind leading the blind.
Sure, we'll just ignore the past and hope it doesn't repeat.
Navi is just another entry into AMDs long list of half-efforts.
I wouldn’t call it a half effort, but there is no way a company the size of AMD can sustain effective competition against two companies in separate fields that are both bigger than them. From an R&D perspective alone they cannot keep up let alone surpass unless the others fumble, and history has shown that when they do fumble, they pick it back up within 18 months.
I like AMD, wish they could do more for the sake of competition driving innovation, but reality is their best effort just forces their competition to fix their mistakes.
have there been any details on what mobile CPU specs are going to look like?
People once thought the giant that was IBM would rule the computer world, being big and having cash is no guarantee of success.
And servers were to be Intel/HP Itanium. Look at HP, a cluster.. yes still large but a mess. GE another cluster.
Intel might just release a 2 percent uplift across the board for the next 2 years for all we know. Most likely they will suffer the same clock regression, as it seems avoiding it via doping like nobody else ever did was exactly why they the fucked up 10nm ... So now they are going ' normal' 7nm (is this 10nm secret sauce or normal?) same as everyone else.
In the end I suspect Intel still uses forced/ stacked ranking, and if they do... Its unlikely they will recover anytime soon... All we will see is zombie eating its own flesh... Being as large as they are it takes a long time.. but look at GE, the inventors of this shit forced ranking, took a very long time before the dam broke on that one and I thinke GE stopped using stacked ranking themselves but seems too late.
The truth is Intel was hoping to be releasing 6 and 8 cores in 2020 with 3 % uplifts for 600 and 500 dollars, and everybody would be jizzing themselves, and saying how 6 and 8 cores are finally' main stream' versus the normal 4 which would then, incredibly be considered mid and lower end starting at 400. Of course 10-16 cores would be high end desktop starting at 850 and topping at 1850 / s ( all that is / s, I don't give a shit about their product stack, as its confusing as shit). Xeons would still be equally if not more outrageous. Of course HT extra, new mobo each time... Collective Jizz fest.
AMD demise was pretty much a sure thing, clearly Intel was banking on it figuratively and literally.
Yes AMD fell behind but jeez, they never fell behind Cytrix or transmeta level.
The mobile GPUs are really exciting to me. Bring the 3000 series to mobile, please. If you think nV have been pushing the pricing envelope shamefully at the high end for desktop cards, you should see what they've done in the mobile space without competition - it's vomit inducing.
i didn't know they were into dungeons & dragons....