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AMD Briefing With Eric Demers - We have posted and AMD slide deck that was the basis of a meeting with AMD GPU CTO Eric Demers yesterday. Some interesting points are being made by AMD.
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AMD Briefing With Eric Demers Slide Deck @ [H]
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AltTabbins
Fully [H]
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It almost feels like Nvidia has become complacent over the past few years. AMD is really on their game and Nvidia can't hide behind minor refreshes and model name changes anymore. Sorry Nvidia, talk is cheap in this industry.
christophicus
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For those of us which perhaps are unable to get our heads around these presentations, is there anyone out there that would be able to outline what Nvidia touts as being key features from their next platform, and what AMD's reponces to those features are?
WBurchnall
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nVidia's key feature is basically this:
You've got a lot of power in your GPU. Why use it just for games when you could use it for doing cancer research(folding at home), calculating physics for in games or converting videos without bogging down your processor as much? Their goal is to more or less try to supplement your iCore 920 for when you feel your iCore 920 is too slow. They also hope to add some physics calculations into the mix as well.
At the moment though, they have no hardware to show. Just a powerpoint slide telling us what the nVidia Fermi will have to offer. Even in those slides though, it doesn't look like a huge gaming increase so much as a huge 'use your graphics card as a cpu' increase. GPGPU is the term usually used to describe that.
You've got a lot of power in your GPU. Why use it just for games when you could use it for doing cancer research(folding at home), calculating physics for in games or converting videos without bogging down your processor as much? Their goal is to more or less try to supplement your iCore 920 for when you feel your iCore 920 is too slow. They also hope to add some physics calculations into the mix as well.
At the moment though, they have no hardware to show. Just a powerpoint slide telling us what the nVidia Fermi will have to offer. Even in those slides though, it doesn't look like a huge gaming increase so much as a huge 'use your graphics card as a cpu' increase. GPGPU is the term usually used to describe that.
zero2dash
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The only thing keeping me from sticking with ATi cards is the superior F@h performance from nV. Equal or beat what a similarly priced nV card puts out, and I'll swap back over again; that's my only issue. Hell I just bought my 260 due to F@h and ditched the 4830 CF setup that had served me well the last 6+ months.
I have no problem saying ATi cards outperform nV's for everything else. Folding though, ATi's cards are still sorely lacking.
I have no problem saying ATi cards outperform nV's for everything else. Folding though, ATi's cards are still sorely lacking.
MrLonghair
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Fermi to me is "We can't get an x86 license due to our poor relations with Intel so this is the best we can do". Is there really that much money to be had from the Fermi target market (ie Tesla types)?
Very good selection of quotes in the slides and presentation, wish the other side was this open and professional about the competition.
(F@H has strange things going on behind closed doors that makes ATI lose a bunch of sales. Look at the past history of the clients and the compiles.)
Very good selection of quotes in the slides and presentation, wish the other side was this open and professional about the competition.
(F@H has strange things going on behind closed doors that makes ATI lose a bunch of sales. Look at the past history of the clients and the compiles.)
Lorien
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They have no choice. They are at risk of becoming redundant. With Intel and AMD converging to a gpu and cpu on die product future, the market for pure discrete graphics has its days numbered. They have no x86 license nor tech to speak of so they must carve out their own market to survive.
HPC sales constitute 1.3% of Nvidia's total revenue, so the potential for growth is there. The trick is to do an effective transition from pure discrete graphics acceleration to GPGPU territory. They've already stumbled on the first step of that transition as the piss poor execution to bring Fermi to market has shown. On top of that the revenue loss from the closing of their chipset business will be about a billion.
To be fair, they both are guilty of slinging mud to each other over the years. The difference this time is that AMD does not need to sling any mud when the facts are enough. Nvidia really has no product to answer AMD's claims so all they can do is keep their heads down and get back to work on getting Fermi out the door.
RubbingAlcoholic
Limp Gawd
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Kyle, it would really help if your UI was a bit better with these slideshows (same thing with the Fermi slideshow). It's unneccessarily obtuse to open each one individually in a new window/tab and toggle between. Plus, for laptop users like myself, the side banners force a horizontal scroll to view the whole slide. Would it be possible for you to put prev/next buttons and keep the banners off the horizontal view?
Lorien
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There are previous and next image links at the bottom of each page, just scroll down.
Are we for getting most of this was said about the 4870, and the GTX280 kicked its butt, then the X2 came to take it back, then the GTX295 took it again.
This happens almost every time, and people still post this crap over and over, the GTX295 is still the fastest single card you can buy!
Nv did not need DX10.1 or DX11 right now, whats the point? nothing I play uses DX11, and 10.1, heck even DX10 is still not used much, again whats the point?
Soon as this Fermi hits whats are you guys going to cry about next? oh its $50.00-$100 more ATI is better price, my god, ATI is a 2nd rate GPU maker, AMD is 2nd rate CPU maker, get over it, if you like what they have and dont mind having a 2nd rate product good, but shut up already.
Thanks have a nice day.
This happens almost every time, and people still post this crap over and over, the GTX295 is still the fastest single card you can buy!
Nv did not need DX10.1 or DX11 right now, whats the point? nothing I play uses DX11, and 10.1, heck even DX10 is still not used much, again whats the point?
Soon as this Fermi hits whats are you guys going to cry about next? oh its $50.00-$100 more ATI is better price, my god, ATI is a 2nd rate GPU maker, AMD is 2nd rate CPU maker, get over it, if you like what they have and dont mind having a 2nd rate product good, but shut up already.
Thanks have a nice day.
x2 some of it, there is no reason jump on the 5870 bandwagon unless you got to have eyefinity. The drama of Nvidia's back up the against the wall and shoving ATI marketing down our throat is getting old. Rant
ToastyBread
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The 5870 is a second-rate product? Yeah, ok.
To be honest, you had a couple of semi-valid points, but ending the post like this, screams nVidia fanboy. To use an wonderfully old phrase: "You have your head so far up nVidia's ass, I don' t know where nVidia ends, and you begin."
Looking at the numbers, I think someone isconfusing AMD with NVIDIA:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
2/3 market cap is "in trouble"?
Facts is that AMD has market 1/3 cap in GPU's and 1/3 market cap in CPU's, if anyone is in "trouble"...it's AMD.
But will be fun to look back to these threads in 6 months.
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
2/3 market cap is "in trouble"?
Facts is that AMD has market 1/3 cap in GPU's and 1/3 market cap in CPU's, if anyone is in "trouble"...it's AMD.
But will be fun to look back to these threads in 6 months.
actually if this is true its not necessarily ATI fault but the client and should be getting fixed
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...e-ati-radeon-hd-5870-is-as-slow-as-4870!.aspx
I have a hard time argueing their logic here, but it does seem like a very open slap in nvidai's face and I am wonder why. Kicking them when there down may make someone feel good but I think it's going alienate some of their future customers.
Or is this just "writing on the wall" to developers ? if it is then is AMD still believing / investing in the gaming market?
Or is this just "writing on the wall" to developers ? if it is then is AMD still believing / investing in the gaming market?
Do you work for Nvidia or have some vested interest in them? You seem to spend your time trolling forums trying to support Nvidia wherever possible. What does current market share have to do with current shipping technology?
I dont know about all this but if nvidias next product is the first step to creating a complete gamming system on a single card, I'm in. I just dont see nvidia not being competitive as far as video cards go, though they may be shooting to high for the rest of it.
Brushing aside the "Ad Hominem" I find it funny that people think the landscape changes on a quarterly basis.
I will be VERY impressed if ATI's makretshare goes up to 40% market cap in 3 months.
Flabbergasted if they hit 50% market cap in 6 months.
The old saying about "not beeing able to see the forrest for trees comes to mind"
But the again facts and PR were never good friends
Lorien
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Riiiiight. What alienates customers is a company(Nvidia) screwing their own paying customers by disabling their cards when used with one of the competition. I'm sure fanboy apologists will spin it any way they can tho.
SixtyWattMan
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In before ATIs market share goes up every month in the next 4 months.
The Geforce GTX 280 was already out when the 4870 shipped. The 4870 was no Geforce GTX 280 killer but it was 90%+ equal to the Geforce GTX 280's performance and was $250 cheaper to boot. This forced NVIDIA to drop prices to become more competitive. Hardly what I'd call a second rate product. As for Direct X 11, are you telling me you won't ever play new games? The games you play now that don't do Direct X 11 are all that's relevant to you? So if a new game comes out and makes good use of Direct X 11, you won't find that relevant? What about in 2 years or so when / if every game leverages this technology, how will you feel about it then? Sure the Geforce GTX 295 is the fastest single card you can get, (ASUS MARS not withstanding) and that says something but the difference between it and the 5870 isn't earth shattering. More to the point the 5870 X2's release draws ever closer and NVIDIA has nothing ready to compete with it. We don't even know if Fermi can complete. The more I think about it the more it's starting to look like NV30 all over again.
As for who is second rate, well you seem to forget that who ends up being second rate can change with just one product launch. NV30 proved that. The Radeon RV300 kicked NV30's ass badly and we all knew it. ATI/AMD has usually been relatively competitive since then, albiet late to market much of the time. However, they've been aggressive since the 3870's launch and continue to improve. The 4870 was very competitive and again, AMD delivered almost everything NVIDIA did but at a lower price. I don't know about you but $250 is a big deal for most people. That 10% performance increase (and I'm being generous) wasn't worth the 1/4 increase in price. I knew it, most people here knew it and NVIDIA even knew it as they dropped their prices. AMD launched a little CPU called the Athlon 64. Perhaps you've heard of it? That "second rate CPU maker" (as you call them) kicked Intel's ass all over the place performance wise and Intel knew it. In one generation they toppled the giant from a performance standpoint.
Let's also not forget that AMD is actually working to create features relevant to gaming such as Eyefinity while NVIDIA is too busy creating HPC capable cards that happen to do graphics work on the side to care it seems. The 5870 is easily the best single GPU card on the planet. The 5870 X2 will take the total performance crown and there isn't anything NVIDIA is prepared to do about it. Is this commanding lead the work of a second rate GPU maker? I think not.
Note:
(BTW I don't currently own a single ATI or AMD video card. All of my machines have NVIDIA Geforce cards in them. 1x 9800GX2, 4x Geforce GTX 280's, etc. So I'm hardly an AMD fanboi. I simply go where the performance is. If that's NVIDIA fine. If it's AMD then so be it.)
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SixtyWattMan
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By how much?
70%
I didn't know Steam survey numbers are representative of the entire pc gaming market.
not arguing that (my next card will be red for a lot of reasons) but this just seems unnecessarily aggressive. They are already killing them and still have a LOT of room to drop prices.
Konig-Wolf
Limp Gawd
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I don't agree with your points, but even if they were 100% accurate, aren't you at least glad ATI and AMD are around, putting pressure on NVIDIA and Intel? Any time a good product is released on either side, the competition stiffens, and prices drop. That's damn good for all of us.
The new generation of ATI cards, starting with the 4000-series and now the 5000-series has put an emphasis on power savings, which NVIDIA is now pushing hard as well. That's not just a victory for all of us, but a victory for the planet too!
With ATI now having the fastest single-GPU card crown, NVIDIA will have to step up it's game with Fermi to make a better video card, and a better GPGPU. When NVIDIA does that, ATI will have to retort with better performance and improved GPGPUs...again, a win for all of us.
Having ATI as a strong competitor to NVIDIA is a good thing, and even if you support one side over the other, you should be thankful the other side exists.
I strongly disagree with nVidia's use of "Fermi"
Enrico Fermi was a brilliant physicist and made groundbreaking contributions to the nuclear industry.
To continue using this name for an unreleased product that will likely get dominated by the competition is slandering the name of a very respectable man. All this because they continue to insist that "Physx" is a godsend.
Enrico Fermi was a brilliant physicist and made groundbreaking contributions to the nuclear industry.
To continue using this name for an unreleased product that will likely get dominated by the competition is slandering the name of a very respectable man. All this because they continue to insist that "Physx" is a godsend.
smartpatrol
Limp Gawd
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Yeah and I am still a little confused about what September's Steam numbers have to do with Radeon 5000 and Fermi. He keeps pointing out these numbers but they have no relevance to the discussions at hand.
Yeah I have to say that this act is reprehensible. NVIDIA should be ashamed of themselves for pulling a stunt like that. Their excuse was even worse. "Due to quality concerns.....blah blah we want to secretly punish you for owning an AMD card.." In short their excuse was lame and I'm not buying into it.
JUSTJOEL73
Gawd
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I am sure JHH of NV is going to have a fit to find out that AMD quoted him in one of the slides. LOL.
CAn i please say this out LOUD
DO NOT SAY NVIDIA ISNT IN TROUBLE CAUSE A STEAM HW SURVEY, MOST STEAM USERS USE 5 GEN OLD VIDEOCARDS!
They do NOT represent the state of the market for this gen, not the pregen either.
Most used videocards is
8800 series
Followed shortly by ATI.
That means 4800 series outsold the GTX series ?. ohh yes it does
GTX2xx had 4.3% while HD4800 series had in fact 7.89
Ati almost have twice as many high end cards sold then, smarties.
Dont say the stats on the front page of steam matters, look into the numbers since there is alot of poor americans you actually can go to, or in any country(mentioning american as it is most likely guys are from there)
And check out his specs, and he probally plays CS 1.6 or something.
There are more of them than there is of us, it will take years and years before GF8xxx cards are not recordable over 1%.
Only 30% is in fact newer than HD2900-> or GF 8->
Impressive that ati has 7.8 % of those 30 just with 4800.
DO NOT SAY NVIDIA ISNT IN TROUBLE CAUSE A STEAM HW SURVEY, MOST STEAM USERS USE 5 GEN OLD VIDEOCARDS!
They do NOT represent the state of the market for this gen, not the pregen either.
Most used videocards is
8800 series
Followed shortly by ATI.
That means 4800 series outsold the GTX series ?. ohh yes it does
GTX2xx had 4.3% while HD4800 series had in fact 7.89
Ati almost have twice as many high end cards sold then, smarties.
Dont say the stats on the front page of steam matters, look into the numbers since there is alot of poor americans you actually can go to, or in any country(mentioning american as it is most likely guys are from there)
And check out his specs, and he probally plays CS 1.6 or something.
There are more of them than there is of us, it will take years and years before GF8xxx cards are not recordable over 1%.
Only 30% is in fact newer than HD2900-> or GF 8->
Impressive that ati has 7.8 % of those 30 just with 4800.
SixtyWattMan
Supreme [H]ardness
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Exactly, don't disable it just don't support it, even though they should support their own cards...
Navilor
Limp Gawd
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Personally I don't care who is "winning" the graphics wars, all I care about is heavy competition for my consumer dollar. I've been running NVIDIA for the past three years and feel that it is about time for ATI to step up and crush NVIDIA for the next few years. It will make NVIDIA fight harder to perhaps one day overcome ATI. Wash, rinse, repeat.
I loved the ATI AIW 9800 Pro. I also loved my NVIDIA GTS 8800 after that. Now I'm loving my GTX 295.
I can hardly wait to see what else ATI has up their sleeve.
I loved the ATI AIW 9800 Pro. I also loved my NVIDIA GTS 8800 after that. Now I'm loving my GTX 295.
I can hardly wait to see what else ATI has up their sleeve.
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah ATI great this, el supremo god..
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Nvidia is dead, the king is dead, long live the king...
Two things,
First, I think it's great that something connected to AMD is successful in its market space.
Second, ATI seems to be on the defensive against a "Paper Tiger"
Let's tone down the marketing hype. Most of us will never see the promised performance benefits of one vendor over the other. Performance and image quality can be very subjective and if you run any resolution below 1920x1200 it really doesn't matter. Any mid range card can handle mainstream gaming.
Enjoy the show folks, that's all it is...
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Nvidia is dead, the king is dead, long live the king...
Two things,
First, I think it's great that something connected to AMD is successful in its market space.
Second, ATI seems to be on the defensive against a "Paper Tiger"
Let's tone down the marketing hype. Most of us will never see the promised performance benefits of one vendor over the other. Performance and image quality can be very subjective and if you run any resolution below 1920x1200 it really doesn't matter. Any mid range card can handle mainstream gaming.
Enjoy the show folks, that's all it is...
CaptNumbNutz
Fully [H]
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Wait a minute... did you just use the steam survey as the end all be all source of GPU marketshare?
LMFAO.
Steam surveys show only a small subset (Computer Gamers who use Steam) of a Niche Market (Computer Gamers). Last I heard, Intel had an overwhelming majority of the Graphics marketshare with their underwhelming chipsets, and it had been that way for YEARS.
The Steam survey is good for showing trends among computer gamers, and that's about it.
Wait a minute... did you just use the steam survey as the end all be all source of GPU marketshare?
LMFAO.
Steam surveys show only a small subset (Computer Gamers who use Steam) of a Niche Market (Computer Gamers). Last I heard, Intel had an overwhelming majority of the Graphics marketshare with their underwhelming chipsets, and it had been that way for YEARS.
The Steam survey is good for showing trends among computer gamers, and that's about it.
It was way more statistical accuracy than eg. those gallup poles you see at at elections...sorry to burst you bubble, by it isn't the people at [H] that makes AMD's or NVIDIA's bread and butter...that is done by Bob Joe...and there is a good chance he is sporting a G80.
that is kinda narrow though, given what the intent looks like it might be a very fitting name (the GF100 looks more like a HPC card then a gaming card)