AMD and Nvidia Must Do More To Stop Shortages and Gouging

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rgMekanic

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An article from CNBC is calling out AMD and Nvidia for not doing something to combat the product shortages and price gouging occurring in the GPU market. Speaking about the shortages, Shrout Research's Ryan Shrout wrote in an email "Because of that, many enthusiasts and DIY builders are putting off system builds and upgrades completely, setting up an unfortunate situation for all other component vendors from processors to motherboards to storage."

I'm honestly shocked that CNBC is reporting on this, that is pretty bad press for AMD and Nvidia. I really like what Ryan Shrout had to say as well, I never thought about the crypto-craze harming other segments of the PC market, but it makes complete sense. It's nice that AMD made a statement when contacted by CNBC, but it feels little more than lip service when Vega 64's are going for $1,300.

Nvidia declined to comment for this story.

AMD sent the following statement when asked about the graphics card shortages for PC gamers due to the cryptocurrency mining:

"The gaming market remains a priority for AMD and gamers are a primary focus across our GPUs, CPUs and semi-custom game console products."
 
It does feel completely disingenuous for them to send out samples for review at this and other sites, then have nothing available on hand for the enthusiasts to purchase. Like, using site reviews to prop up the price and demand even further, completely unnecessarily. Manipulative.
 
LoL........the gaming market is a priority.......right behind cash money and our bonus checks.......what crap.....

Neither company gives a total shit about PCs, gaming or anything else..........their GPUs are flying off the shelves in tractor-trailor loads.....

Demand>supply. Simple economics.

Since there is no competition and no alternative, neither company should worry.
 
I don't see how it is possible to cripple hash rates on GPUs, without some kind of hack that cripples performance when it detects crypto mining.
and since it is a "hack", it also sounds easily bypass-able.

Firmware? rewrite firmware
extra Chip? wire around it
Something on the GPU die itself?
 
on what grounds can someone call out a corporation for purposely not creating enough supply and driving up demand?
Isn't that what practically tons of other companies do? When's the last time i saw an article lambasting nintendo from doing this for it's previous 3 generation of consoles?
Does nvidia/amd have any obligation to meet the demands of the consumers?
 
I think their problem is that they are expecting the Crypto bubble to burst, or at least get to the point that there is no longer a market for every day miners, and that if they ramp up production and the bubble pops then they will flood the market. Which would be good for us, but very bad for them, so I think they are just trying to tough it out.
 
MrDeaf said:
I don't see how it is possible to cripple hash rates on GPUs, without some kind of hack that cripples performance when it detects crypto mining.
and since it is a "hack", it also sounds easily bypass-able.

Firmware? rewrite firmware
extra Chip? wire around it
Something on the GPU die itself?
Click to expand...

10 series cards have a locked BIOS, no reflashing possible. In the "Gaming" series of cards write in some form of hardware level detection for mining and block it. Release less expensive display connector-less, shit warranty having "Mining" series of cards without the BIOS gimp.
 
Keep in mind that Nvidia, like AMD, doesn't own its foundries. "Crank up production to meet demand" doesn't really work for them since they have to work with a 3rd party and abide by all their rules to make that happen. This can require alot of lead time that makes it incredibly tricky to time demand. By the time the "crank up" occurs the demand may have tapered off or gone down, for example. Contrast this with Intel who actually owns their foundries and can, technically, do whatever they want at any time.
 
Shmee said:
I think their problem is that they are expecting the Crypto bubble to burst, or at least get to the point that there is no longer a market for every day miners, and that if they ramp up production and the bubble pops then they will flood the market. Which would be good for us, but very bad for them, so I think they are just trying to tough it out.
Click to expand...

It's my opinion that that is EXACTLY what is happening. https://hardforum.com/threads/nvidi...ers-not-miners.1952873/page-2#post-1043442615
 
It's the third party sellers marking up the prices, not the manufacturers.

"The two chipmakers must do more to protect the needs of their most important market or risk building their businesses on cryptocurrency quick sand."

Cryptocurrency mining being unreliable is the problem. A lot of the components have long lead times, and production is allocated well in advance of when it is manufactured. It's not possible to change how many are being made on short notice. Not producing enough means that the manufacturers are losing potential sales. Retailers may mark up prices and make a killing, but it's lost revenue for the manufacturer. Producing too many means unsold units, having to drop prices, and shrinking profit margins.

They need to make match demand as closely as possible, but they need to predict it long in advance, and the cryptocurrency craze isn't predictable.
 
They make money by selling cards. They are selling cards. The problem is they need to get the output higher to sell more and make more $$$!

Games or miners, I would not care as long as the cards are being sold.
 
Hagrid said:
They make money by selling cards. They are selling cards. The problem is they need to get the output higher to sell more and make more $$$!

Games or miners, I would not care as long as the cards are being sold.
Click to expand...

True, but I think the argument is that card shortages are bad for the health of the PC market, which may end up damaging long term sales long after the crypto bubble has popped.
 
bugleyman said:
True, but I think the argument is that card shortages are bad for the health of the PC market, which may end up damaging long term sales long after the crypto bubble has popped.
Click to expand...
You mean used cards. Yeah, not sure about that. The lower end cards I could see, but I would never think about a used high end card unless it had the warranty intact. Knowing it was used for mining would also be a big no buy.
 
Hagrid said:
You mean used cards. Yeah, not sure about that. The lower end cards I could see, but I would never think about a used high end card unless it had the warranty intact. Knowing it was used for mining would also be a big no buy.
Click to expand...

I meant the PC market as a whole. If you can't buy a graphics card, then maybe you just don't build a computer at all, which hurts everyone. Over time, that damage could add up.

I'm not saying I agree, just that I believe that is the argument.
 
Flatrock19 said:
It's the third party sellers marking up the prices, not the manufacturers.

"The two chipmakers must do more to protect the needs of their most important market or risk building their businesses on cryptocurrency quick sand."

Cryptocurrency mining being unreliable is the problem. A lot of the components have long lead times, and production is allocated well in advance of when it is manufactured. It's not possible to change how many are being made on short notice. Not producing enough means that the manufacturers are losing potential sales. Retailers may mark up prices and make a killing, but it's lost revenue for the manufacturer. Producing too many means unsold units, having to drop prices, and shrinking profit margins.

They need to make match demand as closely as possible, but they need to predict it long in advance, and the cryptocurrency craze isn't predictable.
Click to expand...
This. NVIDIA and AMD are not making anymore money from the inflated prices.
bugleyman said:
I meant the PC market as a whole. If you can't buy a graphics card, then maybe you just don't build a computer at all, which hurts everyone. Over time, that damage could add up.

I'm not saying I agree, just that I believe that is the argument.
Click to expand...
RAM prices and now this. I've already put off getting a new CPU because of the RAM prices. If Volta/Ampere becomes impossible to find at SEP I may just stick to consoles for gaming.
 
King of Heroes said:
Keep in mind that Nvidia, like AMD, doesn't own its foundries. "Crank up production to meet demand" doesn't really work for them since they have to work with a 3rd party and abide by all their rules to make that happen. This can require alot of lead time that makes it incredibly tricky to time demand. By the time the "crank up" occurs the demand may have tapered off or gone down, for example. Contrast this with Intel who actually owns their foundries and can, technically, do whatever they want at any time.
Click to expand...

Then there is a contract that says how many chips will be run. AMD in the Bulldozer days didn't satisfy their foundry contract. I remember them having to work out a deal where they ended up pay the penalty over quite a few years. Paying off that penalty was one of the key deals that got them somewhat profitable today so that they can invest into R&D again.

In short, ramping up production is the worst thing that they can do. If they want to cater to miners then what they should do is develop a custom mining solution that the average person can't run at home. Something that the people mining in warehouses would use over a bunch of haphazardly placed GPUs.


Watch the end of this video. I cued it to start at 6:36 and the 7:12 mark is a good place to pause it. Yes, it is about car audio, but then towards the end you see many stacks of EVGA GPUs. Even guys selling speakers on the internet are dual purposing their warehouses to mining!

 
While Nvidia and AMD may not be making any More money per card from this shortage, they are most definitely not making Less money.

Without the crypto mining craze, AMD would have to be discounting their highest end video cards at this point in the product cycle to keep people buying them.
Nvidia would also probably have to be offering lower prices / rebates / bundled stuff as well to keep sales going.
The mining craze is making sure that AMD & Nvidia don't have to cut prices to compete with each other nearly as much as both sell all they can.

Right now they can sell as many as they have in stock and as many more as come through production at their full asking price & if anybody wants a discount they can say no and move to the next board making partner.
They can then have the option of running the stock down to near 0 at full price before the next generation ships
That in itself is a huge plus.

You can be sure Nvidia hugely cares about selling enough cards to miners as when they pulled their BS stunt about not letting the GeForce cards be used in Datacenters due to "software licencing" changes, they specifically said it's allowed to use them as much as you want in a Datacenter as long as it's for crypto currency mining.
 
The mining craze and resultant GPU short ages are definitely hurting the rest of the market.

Why upgrade your system if you are bottlenecked by an old GPU and can't afford an upgrade anyway?

I feel like the same is going on with RAM prices, but to a lesser extent. I'd certainly have upgraded my dual socket Westmere-EP era Xeon board in my server by now, if not for the ludicrous price of replacing my Registered DDR3 with 256GB of Registered DDR4.
 
I think miners have every right to buy up the cards for their uses, but damn does it suck to have to be considering used 4-5 year old graphics cards off of craigslist for $200 to be "budget" these days.
 
I would like to see "gaming" only cards.. with bios / extra chips whatever it takes to gimp the hash rate if gaming card is used for mining..

or other techniques that could poison the card for miners..
 
Armenius said:
RAM prices and now this. I've already put off getting a new CPU because of the RAM prices. If Volta/Ampere becomes impossible to find at SEP I may just stick to consoles for gaming.
Click to expand...

Personally I'd just stop gaming all together if it came to that.

The sad part is, if fewer people can get their hands on GPU's for games, there is also going to be less development for the PC platform. Why develop games if no one can afford the hardware to play them?

This will hurt those of us with existing capable systems as well :(
 
Flatrock19 said:
It's the third party sellers marking up the prices, not the manufacturers.

"The two chipmakers must do more to protect the needs of their most important market or risk building their businesses on cryptocurrency quick sand."

Cryptocurrency mining being unreliable is the problem. A lot of the components have long lead times, and production is allocated well in advance of when it is manufactured. It's not possible to change how many are being made on short notice. Not producing enough means that the manufacturers are losing potential sales. Retailers may mark up prices and make a killing, but it's lost revenue for the manufacturer. Producing too many means unsold units, having to drop prices, and shrinking profit margins.

They need to make match demand as closely as possible, but they need to predict it long in advance, and the cryptocurrency craze isn't predictable.
Click to expand...
When you say manufacturers you mean only AMD and Nvidia, right?

Have you looked at EVGA or PNY's website store lately? PNY for example is charging $1000 per 1080 ti direct.
 
MrDeaf said:
I don't see how it is possible to cripple hash rates on GPUs, without some kind of hack that cripples performance when it detects crypto mining.
and since it is a "hack", it also sounds easily bypass-able.

Firmware? rewrite firmware
extra Chip? wire around it
Something on the GPU die itself?
Click to expand...

I think everyone's looking at this the wrong way round. What they need to do is release a version of their product that's better for mining than graphics cards. Tweak the memory and CPU to give better hash rates. Perhaps research into models that can help streamline the process of buffering blockchains. Sell them with specific coolers and fans that last longer. Charge a modest premium and at the same time decrease the ROI time sufficiently so that the cards are more efficient. Make interesting features, like "profiles" for specific algos. There's a million ideas that could be used.

How about selling GPU's with PCIe 1x interfaces on them. Sufficient for mining and MUCH simpler to implement on bigger rigs

Include a single display port. Then, when they're resold, cheap gaming GPU's are available.

At the moment they're charging an extortionate premium for their compute GPU's, even though they're the same cores. The supposed "mining cards" aren't available anywhere in any decent numbers, have no display port, so no resale value, and they're based on the entry level models only.

Yes there's a finite number of GPU's made, but at least then they would be two separate products and people would stop whinging like babies that they can't play games.

But for all this at the end of the day the will has to be there, and it's not. Nvidia and AMD don't give a crap about your gaming. They care about selling as many of their cards as they can. ROI.
 
atarione said:
I would like to see "gaming" only cards.. with bios / extra chips whatever it takes to gimp the hash rate if gaming card is used for mining..

or other techniques that could poison the card for miners..
Click to expand...
So they can sell less cards? Just a guess but I think business's want to make money. They make money by selling their product.
 
davethehedgehog said:
I think everyone's looking at this the wrong way round. What they need to do is release a version of their product that's better for mining than graphics cards. Tweak the memory and CPU to give better hash rates. Perhaps research into models that can help streamline the process of buffering blockchains. Sell them with specific coolers and fans that last longer. Charge a modest premium and at the same time decrease the ROI time sufficiently so that the cards are more efficient. Make interesting features, like "profiles" for specific algos. There's a million ideas that could be used.

How about selling GPU's with PCIe 1x interfaces on them. Sufficient for mining and MUCH simpler to implement on bigger rigs

Include a single display port. Then, when they're resold, cheap gaming GPU's are available.

At the moment they're charging an extortionate premium for their compute GPU's, even though they're the same cores. The supposed "mining cards" aren't available anywhere in any decent numbers, have no display port, so no resale value, and they're based on the entry level models only.

Yes there's a finite number of GPU's made, but at least then they would be two separate products and people would stop whinging like babies that they can't play games.
Click to expand...
But then they would have to invest in a new arch for mining, then still wait in queue in the same manf facilities to get the chips made, and then send to the same AIB's to assemble.
 
cybrnook said:
But then they would have to invest in a new arch for mining, then still wait in queue in the same manf facilities to get the chips made, and then send to the same AIB's to assemble.
Click to expand...

Why? The GPU's are there, the types of changes they could make are superficial. Sell them with a direct riser attached PCI interface, rather than a full size pcie x16 slot. Just that one change would help to segregate the market straight away. Benefit to miners, easier deployment, benefit to gamers, the number of GPU's allocated to gaming cards remains constant.

They don't want to fix it. They don't care. They're in the selling hardware business, not the making people happy business
 
Hagrid said:
So they can sell less cards? Just a guess but I think business's want to make money. They make money by selling their product.
Click to expand...

They'd sell the cards there is a ton of pent up demand from gamers ... who aren't willing to get gouged ... they (nvidia & amd) aren't making the bulk of the money from the gouging anyways resellers are..

down the road.. if this situation diminishes pc gaming (i think the current pricing is going to send / is sending some towards consoles) they are going to sell less down the road.. this mining thing is a bubble and it is going to break and if chip makers and card makers ..etc have done nothing but F*ck gamers who are going to be whats left after the bubble bursts.. that is going to be quite bad for them indeed.
 
atarione said:
They'd sell the cards there is a ton of pent up demand from gamers ... who aren't willing to get gouged ... they (nvidia & amd) aren't making the bulk of the money from the gouging anyways resellers are..

down the road.. if this situation diminishes pc gaming (i think the current pricing is going to send / is sending some towards consoles) they are going to sell less down the road.. this mining thing is a bubble and it is going to break and if chip makers and card makers ..etc have done nothing but F*ck gamers who are going to be whats left after the bubble bursts.. that is going to be quite bad for them indeed.
Click to expand...
They are making bank since they are all sold out. That is big $$$. Otherwise, most of the stock would be sitting in a warehouse making money for nobody.
 
LigTasm said:
I think miners have every right to buy up the cards for their uses, but damn does it suck to have to be considering used 4-5 year old graphics cards off of craigslist for $200 to be "budget" these days.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with miners but I do have a problem with them buying 10 fucking cards that 10 other gamers could use. Or, whatever the amount is. 2 cards is 1 too many. Go be a miner but stop taking cards away from gamers.

I pray and hope to god that nVidia cripples miners ability to use these cards moving forward. There is a demand so the market will respond but with a product that separates gamers from miners, and not soon enough!
 
davethehedgehog said:
Why? The GPU's are there, the types of changes they could make are superficial. Sell them with a direct riser attached PCI interface, rather than a full size pcie x16 slot. Just that one change would help to segregate the market straight away. Benefit to miners, easier deployment, benefit to gamers, the number of GPU's allocated to gaming cards remains constant.

They don't want to fix it. They don't care. They're in the selling hardware business, not the making people happy business
Click to expand...
Oh I agree %100 they don't want to fix it, this is a surge of cash that I am sure is happily being received. Even if it may be a bad play for the future, the short term right now is surely sweet. Hell, AI is the future anyways, right?!

But to the idea of spinning up a new GPU specifically for mining, it would still be a direct competitor to the gaming market, right? What I mean by that is:

- Would still be based off of Pascal / Vega die's, right?
- Would still require the same memory chips from only a handful of memory manf's in the market (samsung, hynix, maybe micron).
- HBM is still expensive, and seemingly low yield.
- A different manf process would have to be tweak to accommodate whatever "tweaks" you are suggesting.
- AIB's still need to make them, and then ship.

Then it would just turn into a shortage of "crypto" GPU's and we are right back to buying up Gaming GPU's.

Unless a WHOLE NEW player comes into the game, like VooDoo :), and makes cards only for Crypto, and nothing but Crypto then maybe... But demand is so high I am not sure there is a straight answer to ramp if off.
 
It seems like the "who cares who bought it as long as they sold it" crowd is still missing the point: If the lack of cards hurts PC gaming in a lasting way, then they'll sell fewer GPUs when -- not if -- the mining bubble pops.

Of course, corporations aren't exactly known for taking the long-term view.
 
One way this could happen, because the financial incentives line up, could be motherboard makers blocking the use of more than one GPU per motherboard.

If they are worried about not being able to sell motherboards to people who want them, because all the GPU's are gone, make sure every motherboard that gets sold can only accept one GPU.

It's just going to be tough to make sure that everyone follows suit. All it takes is one maker to buck the trend to kill the strategy. That and miners will be hiding in to their old boards as long as they can.
 
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SixFootDuo said:
I have no problem with miners but I do have a problem with them buying 10 fucking cards that 10 other gamers could use. Or, whatever the amount is. 2 cards is 1 too many. Go be a miner but stop taking cards away from gamers.

I pray and hope to god that nVidia cripples miners ability to use these cards moving forward. There is a demand so the market will respond but with a product that separates gamers from miners, and not soon enough!
Click to expand...
I am sure they are thinking of ways to stop miners from making their cards fly off the shelf......
Why make lots of money when you can make only a little bit.......
 
cybrnook said:
Unless a WHOLE NEW player comes into the game, like VooDoo :), and makes cards only for Crypto, and nothing but Crypto then maybe... But demand is so high I am not sure there is a straight answer to ramp if off.
Click to expand...

There are such things. ASICs. The miners you're complaining about don't buy them because they're expensive and limited to one algo. The whole point of GPU's is that they're flexible. I would love for some player to come in with something as flexible as a GPU that was dedicated for mining, but I'd be surprised if it happens. The industry has narrowed itself down into a two horse race and I suspect it would be next to impossible for any player 3's to join in at this stage with the billions it would take to buy in.

Again, I don't think the issue you're talking about isn't an issue. It's a forced situation. If AMD/Nvidia wanted to spin up more production I'm sure they could, if the will was there. I'm not saying it would be easy, it's not and it would cost money and entail risk. The dude posting saying that they're holding fire is pretty close in my opinion. They think the "bubble" will burst and they don't want to be left with a bunch of factories churning out GPU's for pennies. It won't. It might deflate a bit, but crypto's going nowhere. All the FUD articles and half-thought through forum rants posted on HardOCP won't change that. (edit: I didn't mean your post by the way here, :) just the general usual responses to anything crypto)

They just want to keep their artificially inflated prices for as long as they can. Even before the present stupid situation.. £800 for a GPU MSRP? Seriously?
 
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