AMD admits its Radeon RX 5700 series price cuts were a trap for Nvidia

Nolan7689 said:
Starting small and going large is not a new concept.

Nvidia did exactly that with Maxwell. The first Maxwell parts were the 750 and 750ti despite the rest of the 700 line being Kepler. The 900 series followed about 8 months later with Maxwell proper.

It worked well for Nvidia I can see it working well enough for AMD too, but I’m sure there is a reason Nvidia isn’t still going that method. Or maybe there isn’t Iunno.
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Good point and I did honestly forget about NVs maxwell parts.

I think for NV the last couple generations (not 1000) but Volta and Turing. They have tried to have their cake and eat it too. Saving a ton of money designing one chip to rule them all. Now with no real high end competition from AMD perhaps it wasn't a bad bet. They saved the cost of designing and tapping out an actual consumer part for a long time by simply selling their AI/Server designed silicon cast offs into the consumer market with RTX.

IMO They choose great profits... by salvaging all those chips they have been able to compete very aggressively on the AI end of things, and they have been pretty safe on the Consumer end jacking up the pricing as AMDs Vegas where never able to really match them in performance and has issues with heat and power.

I think NVs going big and big only was probably a pretty smart move really. I think it has only worked because AMD sort of dropped the ball. Vega wasn't as good as it should have been and the choice of HBM memory made it almost impossible to bring Vega costs down. So AMD has been selling very old polaris stuff for a lot longer then anyone would have imagined.

I do hope NV is going little... then big with Ampere. I think from everything Intel has said publicly so far it sounds like XE will also be a little... big roll out. With consumer cards differing quite a bit from the high end XE server parts.

The CPU fight got interesting in 2019... it seems like 2020 might be a good year for GPUs.
 
DejaWiz said:
They've done it at multiple points in the past.

Athlon X2 4800+ carried a launch MSRP of $1001 back in 2005...

Radeon Fury X was $649 back in 2015, which was the same price as the faster performing 980Ti at the time.

[edit]
Excluding the 290X I mentioned earlier, since I was mistaken that it was competing with the 780Ti instead of the 780 vanilla...

Radeon 290X was $550 in 2013.
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Don't forget about the FX-60 that was selling for $1200 in 2006.
These companies are all the same, but at least AMD is giving out some good competition and offering much better tech for us at this point, so we should enjoy it while it lasts!
 
None of this changes the fact that Nvidia got jabaited…!


Jensen knew what Navi was, but didn't have anything to counter it... so we started to see "SUPER" viral marketing... but we didn't even know if it was a GPU, or something else. That viral marketing/video was in response to the months away Key Note speech from Dr Lisa Su (AMD CEO)… about her new Navi. (she has given 3 this year and one more next month, how many key note speeches did Jensen give this year...? Where is he..?)

SUPER was a direct response for Nvidia to remain relevant in the GPU space. Think of what would of happened, if Jensen didn't release SUPER. Nvidia had to do something to combat NAVI, and reshuffling the bins & selling less cut-down CAD/Pro/Server/AI gpus… and calling them SUPER just wasn't enough... as AMD purposely (under Dr Su's guidance) undersold Navi's performance on purpose.



Understand, that AMD is in full control of the GPU market, that is why AMD jabaited Nvidia... to show them they lost the PC market. Now, that might upset a lot of you cheerleaders, but the fact remains that AMD just released their 2nd Generation 7nm GPU and their 3rd generation GPU is only 5 months away. Nvidia JUST signed their first 7nm contract with Samsung, while Dr Su signed their 7nm TSMC contract nearly 4 years ago.

As such, AMD economy of scale is superior to Nvidia's. And as much as you Nvidia cheerleaders would like to think, AMD can sell Navi cheaper and still make more in margins than Nvidia. Because (again) economy of scale and the way wafers and chips are made. 7nm has more yield.


And Nvidia's answer to Navi is bigger chips.... and call them SUPER?

As you can see that will not work, so Nvidia is going to have to cut prices again and that will land Jensen with much egg on his face... which will be a clear sign that Nvidia lost control of the GPU space. Turing as a gaming GPU is a flop... Jensen can only throw cut-down $2k GPUs at games, has nothing to compete with Navi... nothing!



If you think the rtx2080 SUPER is the answer, then be prepared to be jabaited again when AMD releases their 5800 & 5900 series GPUs.
 
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You do not take 6% market shares from Intel in one day being a fool like most of you think of AMD ..

As we do not know if it was only to bate Nvidia to show there new cards for AMD to tune what's yet to come is my guess as naming it the mid range part can not be overlooked as 5700 is not top naming of flagship cards should be a clue.


But the true story is Nvidia still can not make RX 570 go away with pricing .
 
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ChadD said:
I think we are all confusing R&D and production asset costs with actual wafer costs.
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No we are not. The AMD slide was not about up fronts costs. It was about production costs.

It was specifically about the die cost per yielded mm2. That is pure production cost.

7nm is drastically cheaper per billion transistors. This is a fact. It has been true of every single shrink in the history of tech.
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This hasn't been a fact for many years.

This is how it worked a decade back but cost per transistor has flatlined, and first ran into trouble around 20nm, and was already slowing even before that.

https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1286363#
Clearly, dimensional scaling is no longer associated with lower average cost per transistor. The chart below, published by IBS about a year ago, shows the diminishing benefit of cost reduction from dimensional scaling. In fact, the chart indicates that the 20nm node might be associated with higher cost than the previous node
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Eventually cost/transistor creeps down a little bit, but the gains are barely significant, and won't be realized till process maturation, so it is practically a non factor when comparing adjacent process, one mature, and one new.

AMD is probably paying about as much for a 10 Billion Transistor die as NVidia, even if the amounts are different, they are unlikely to be significant.
 
dERP!

Per wafer... meaning that when AMD pays "nearly the same" it is because they have nearly twice as many chips per wafer. As such, AMD has more "10 billion Transistor Packages" per the same dollar.

But it is not "nearly the same" as you keep wanting to believe. As we know that RTX is nothing more than a cut-down, like Radeon 7/Mi50 was.. it has more transistors and is monolithic...



Nvidia can not compete with AMD's economy of scale, until they are in full production of the 7nm GPU... until then, it is 100% AMD and RDNA.


jAHbaited….
 
BlueFireIce said:
And I can agree with all of that. But I don't think it's a "bad" assumption, it follows everything we know, and is what people far closer to the inside also are saying (but disagree on how much it seems). The assumption could still be wrong for sure, but I don't think it is a bad one. I am also not saying they *do* have more pricing headroom, but that I would think so, at least until I see someone or something pointing in the other direction. Always open to reading more on the topic, however deep topics in PC HW seem to be more and more rare with only a few places offering solid insights.

NV does have a better negotiation point, but that is far harder to gauge than the other factors at play. It's like NV offering MUCH better cooling solutions, something I am not sure AMD could get away with even if they didn't go with the blower for price, as it would probably upset and undercut any partner cards, as that's one of the main reasons to get one, that being better cooling and higher clocks.
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Little late to this thread but it's quite clear you nothing about NAVI. Mine (and noko 's 5700xt AV) both do 2200Mhz on....


The "shitty" AMD blower. I buy reference cards so I can 'block em and clock 'em to the Heavens but this is the first blower that I felt I could easily use just the way it is.



It is NOT the 290x/VEGA SKUs. It's quiet and cool running with out the fan even ramping.
 
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ccityinstaller said:
Little late to this thread but it's quite clear you nothing about NAVI. Mine (and noko 's 5700xt AV) both do 2200Mhz on....


The "shitty" AMD blower. I buy reference cards so I can 'block em and clock 'em to the Heavens but this is the first blower that I felt I could easily use just the way it is.



It is NOT the 290x/VEGA SKUs. It's quiet and cool running with out the fan even ramping.
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So every reviewer is lying and the blower cooler on these cards is unlike every other blower cooler in existence.....Got it.
 
BlueFireIce said:
So every reviewer is lying and the blower cooler on these cards is unlike every other blower cooler in existence.....Got it.
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I have no reason to lie. I do not care whether you believe me or not. I was simply saying that I expected it to be a vacuum cleaner (as I mentioned I had (290s, and a bunch of reference VEGAS AND VIIs) and is it not. More so, my cards stays in the upper 70s running @2200. Next week it will be 35C. We will see what it can do then.
 
I want it to be a trap, but it definitely wasn't. We win anyway, with lower prices and good cards ;)
 
Uvaman2 said:
I wouldn't say everyone said is loud though.
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Lol....Ok.








https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/32.html

"When gaming, the picture changes completely, though. With 43 dBA, the card is simply noisy. It's slightly quieter than Vega 64, but the levels are pretty much identical to the Vega 56 and Radeon VII. Considering the card is also running fairly hot, I really have to question AMD's choice for their cooling solution."

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14618/the-amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt-rx-5700-review/15

"If there is a real downside here, it’s that AMD’s blower-based coolers aren’t going to impress anyone with their performance, even by blower standards. The RX 5700 XT is a bit louder than even NVIDIA’s GTX 1080 Ti, which is a flat-out higher TDP card."



Even sites that don't straight out state they are loud, even if they are an improvement over Vega, they top the charts in noise in every review with the only other card to be louder being Vega cards. And even with those noise levels, the cards still run hot. Is AMD replacing Apple with the reality distortion field?
 
BlueFireIce said:
Lol....Ok.








https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/32.html

"When gaming, the picture changes completely, though. With 43 dBA, the card is simply noisy. It's slightly quieter than Vega 64, but the levels are pretty much identical to the Vega 56 and Radeon VII. Considering the card is also running fairly hot, I really have to question AMD's choice for their cooling solution."

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14618/the-amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt-rx-5700-review/15

"If there is a real downside here, it’s that AMD’s blower-based coolers aren’t going to impress anyone with their performance, even by blower standards. The RX 5700 XT is a bit louder than even NVIDIA’s GTX 1080 Ti, which is a flat-out higher TDP card."



Even sites that don't straight out state they are loud, even if they are an improvement over Vega, they top the charts in noise in every review with the only other card to be louder being Vega cards. And even with those noise levels, the cards still run hot. Is AMD replacing Apple with the reality distortion field?
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I have a Vega 56 reference with a Vega 64 bios flashed to it in a mITX case and it is NOT loud. (Not in the slightest.) Now, my Powercolor RX580 Red Devil in OC mode, now that is loud, when it is running at a 100% load.
 
ManofGod said:
I have a Vega 56 reference with a Vega 64 bios flashed to it in a mITX case and it is NOT loud. (Not in the slightest.) Now, my Powercolor RX580 Red Devil in OC mode, now that is loud, when it is running at a 100% load.
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I don't care what you "think", show me a measurement with a calibrated mic of it beating any of the NV cards. I know people who think a 6,000rpm Delta fan is "fine". The coolers top all of the charts in noise, if that is not loud for you, great, but they are some of the loudest coolers on the market.
 
BlueFireIce said:
I don't care what you "think", show me a measurement with a calibrated mic of it beating any of the NV cards. I know people who think a 6,000rpm Delta fan is "fine". The coolers top all of the charts in noise, if that is not loud for you, great, but they are some of the loudest coolers on the market.
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What I think matters, what someone feels does not. I know for a fact that it is not loud, at all, regardless of your "opinion". The loudest cooler on the market is the Powercolor RX 580 in OC mode, now that thing is very audible at full load and the Vega reference is not.
 
ManofGod said:
What I think matters, what someone feels does not. I know for a fact that it is not loud, at all, regardless of your "opinion". The loudest cooler on the market is the Powercolor RX 580 in OC mode, now that thing is very audible at full load and the Vega reference is not.
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No, it doesn't matter, your subjective feelings mean nothing, when all the reviews show these cards at the top of the noise level charts. When a card is consistently in the top 10% of loudest cards.....It's loud.
 
BlueFireIce said:
No, it doesn't matter, your subjective feelings mean nothing, when all the reviews show these cards at the top of the noise level charts. When a card is consistently in the top 10% of loudest cards.....It's loud.
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No feelings and no subjectiveness about it but *Shrugs* Here: (Hands poster the last words....) Enjoy.
 
Some peoples' cases might better hide the sound. There might be ambient noise that is already louder. The user might be used to a loud vega and get the impression "this is quieter". Someone if they had a hearing aid, cloud be low on battery.

The blower is loud with measurable noise levels, which are comparable to every other card. Actual measurements, which I would trust.

But how "loud" someone thinks it is, is subjective.

So if you do not think it is 'loud', that's completely fine. However, trying to convince others it is not loud when measured evidence shows otherwise, is misleading.
 
GoodBoy said:
Some peoples' cases might better hide the sound. There might be ambient noise that is already louder. The user might be used to a loud vega and get the impression "this is quieter". Someone if they had a hearing aid, cloud be low on battery.

The blower is loud with measurable noise levels, which are comparable to every other card. Actual measurements, which I would trust.

But how "loud" someone thinks it is, is subjective.

So if you do not think it is 'loud', that's completely fine. However, trying to convince others it is not loud when measured evidence shows otherwise, is misleading.
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I am extremely noise sensitive, which is why I have $500+ in water cooling gear and $30 a piece fans...

Currently my side panels are off my case, with it sitting 2ft from my right hand. I have it on my desk while my loop is torn down (normally is in the living room for the 65" FreeSync goodness).

I am using a Wraith Prism and the reference blower on the 5700xt. It's not whisper quiet like my loop, but I did not say it was either. I simply said it is not a vacuum (let's compare it's "pitch" since noise graphs are correct if the mic is working properly) compared to my 290s, VEGAs and my VIIs.

With the VII, it is extremely loud, especially if you ramp it up to full speed. Even at full speed, the 5700xt "seems" much quieter, which could be attributed to the "pitch".


I am not using a public driver so I cannot comment on any modifications to anything. I am simply running the card at default with the PL increased.
 
GoodBoy said:
Some peoples' cases might better hide the sound. There might be ambient noise that is already louder. The user might be used to a loud vega and get the impression "this is quieter". Someone if they had a hearing aid, cloud be low on battery.

The blower is loud with measurable noise levels, which are comparable to every other card. Actual measurements, which I would trust.

But how "loud" someone thinks it is, is subjective.

So if you do not think it is 'loud', that's completely fine. However, trying to convince others it is not loud when measured evidence shows otherwise, is misleading.
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This is the case it is in: https://www.newegg.com/black-metall...x-case/p/N82E16811861001?Item=N82E16811861001

This is also another case it was in yesterday: https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mid-tower/mastercase-5/

I switched the Vega 56 Reference and this card between systems: https://www.powercolor.com/product?id=1492677805

The Power Color card with the OC bios enabled sounds like a hover craft taking off, at least when at full mode. I switched it to the silent bios and that helped a lot. However, I bought a MSI 1440p 144 Hz monitor so I placed the Vega 56 reference card in the mITX case above. I can feel the heat coming off the card if I place my hand near the vent, for sure but, the card itself is not noisy, at all. (The machine is maybe 2.5 feet or so away from where I am sitting.)

Essentially, the only way the Vega Reference can be considered noisy is if all the other cards are completely inaudible. This is not a subjective things but an actual experiential thing. :) Of course, I do not unlock the fan and run it full tilt either. I also have a H100i v2 installed with the fans at 1600 rpm's and the case fan in the back, running at about 1000 rpm's. The only issue with that case is the front part is so air flow restricted as to be essentially useless to install anything there. I did install the AIO in the side of the case, where they provided proper ventilation for it, thankfully.

I would have no issue with getting a 5700XT Reference to install in that Mastercase 5. :) Oh, and I am fully aware of loud is, since I use to have one of the Hurricane or Typhoon heatsink fans to cool my Althon XP, back in the day. (Now those were loud! :D )
 
ccityinstaller said:
I am extremely noise sensitive, which is why I have $500+ in water cooling gear and $30 a piece fans...

Currently my side panels are off my case, with it sitting 2ft from my right hand. I have it on my desk while my loop is torn down (normally is in the living room for the 65" FreeSync goodness).

I am using a Wraith Prism and the reference blower on the 5700xt. It's not whisper quiet like my loop, but I did not say it was either. I simply said it is not a vacuum (let's compare it's "pitch" since noise graphs are correct if the mic is working properly) compared to my 290s, VEGAs and my VIIs.

With the VII, it is extremely loud, especially if you ramp it up to full speed. Even at full speed, the 5700xt "seems" much quieter, which could be attributed to the "pitch".


I am not using a public driver so I cannot comment on any modifications to anything. I am simply running the card at default with the PL increased.
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Yeah, I forgot about the sound that the noise makes, or pitch, as well. Of course, I am not aware of any card that has fans and is fully whisper quiet at full load, anyways. Hearing the rush of air is not a big deal, hearing a whiny fan, on the other hand....... :yuck:

Edit: And as for being on topic, it is pretty much a he said, she said sort of thing at this point. I am not surprised that AMD made this move and said so, considering how much better they are than they once where. (Not like they are doing a Poor Volta video or something like that garbage.)
 
ccityinstaller said:
.. Even at full speed, the 5700xt "seems" much quieter, which could be attributed to the "pitch"....
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That makes sense. The 'pitch' or whatever it would be called, the harshness of the sound. So the sound pressure is still there, but it is 'smoother' or 'softer', which makes it much more tolerable. Has to do with the shape of the blades.
 
Nanogrip said:
I want it to be a trap, but it definitely wasn't. We win anyway, with lower prices and good cards ;)
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Definitely not a trap, as anyone who watched that actual interview I linked to on the first page would understand. It was normal strategic planning by AMD. The main difference is that their strategy was well planned and executed, which has not often been the case of the AMD/ATI of old.
 
jardows said:
The main difference is that their strategy was well planned and executed, which has not often been the case of the AMD/ATI of old.
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Been meaning to point this out- AMD can claim they did whatever, but given the cards on the table this was their only play.

What's exceptional is that they managed to not clusterfuck it.
 
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