AMD Accuses NVIDIA's Gameworks Of Being 'Tragic' And 'Damaging'

dcds1 said:
I truely don't think you will see 4k even become mainstream in 10 years. If you look at Steams hardware stats, you will see that 720p still holds 26.89% of the resolution played at market.
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These are LoL/DOTA2 players running on low end hardware. Pay them no mind.
 
ManofGod said:
What I am getting a kick out of is seeing folks claim, "60fps the stuff!, you blind if you not notice diff" type posts. :D I have played games at 60fps, 45fps, 25fps (Flight Simulator only in that case) and I have not noticed any input lag or hesitation.
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Maybe you're just incapable of noticing it. If that's the case, count your blessings; ignorance is bliss in that regard.
 
Steve said:
The "tragic and damaging" headline sounds like fighting words...until you actually read the quote below.

“Nvidia Gameworks typically damages the performance on Nvidia hardware as well, which is a bit tragic really,” he told PCR. “It certainly feels like it’s about reducing the performance, even on high-end graphics cards, so that people have to buy something new.
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Yea Cause Adding more graphic's to a game has ALWAYS increase performance in a game

trudude said:
I have no problem with GameWorks. Witcher 3 runs flawlessly for me. GameWorks adds alot to the immersion.
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Daeyx said:
You are running SLI'd Titan X's.... it better bloody well run flawlessly...
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Run's perfectly fine on my gtx980

Pieter3dnow said:
Mantle proves that AMD provides very well for their hardware. It does not even have to cripple performance on Nvidia hardware to achieve it.
If AMD is so awful explain DX12/Vulkan or did MS/Khronos take their cue from Nvidia on those ?
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Funny how gameworks least works on AMD cards where as Mantle was locked outta working on nvidia cards entirely.


Terpfen said:
What does Gameworks have to do with OpenCL?
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Funny how OpenCL is a standard, one most recent complaints is hairworks which uses DX11 Tessellation which is ALSO a Standard. Funny how AMD says they want standards which was used in hairworks yet still complain?
 
ManofGod said:
Oh, I do not know, I think 4k TV's have their place just like 4k monitors do. What I am getting a kick out of is seeing folks claim, "60fps the stuff!, you blind if you not notice diff" type posts. :D I have played games at 60fps, 45fps, 25fps (Flight Simulator only in that case) and I have not noticed any input lag or hesitation.

30fps is fine at 4k resolutions such as in Crysis 3. Now, if someone disagrees and does not like it, fine. However, not you but those who would do so, do not bother coming in here and dictating that 60fps is the only way to go and I do not know any better type of crap. :rolleyes:
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I know that this is really off topic, but this post astounds me. I get that there are people who can't see the difference (and honestly - if you can't, then you're in a better position since you won't "need" to upgrade), but is there no acknowledgement that people CAN see the difference? Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

Personally I can see the difference between 60fps and 30fps. It's night and day to my eyes. Above 70fps though is where I run into diminishing returns though. 120fps vs 60fps isn't as drastic to me as 60fps vs 30fps.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
I know that this is really off topic, but this post astounds me. I get that there are people who can't see the difference (and honestly - if you can't, then you're in a better position since you won't "need" to upgrade), but is there no acknowledgement that people CAN see the difference? Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

Personally I can see the difference between 60fps and 30fps. It's night and day to my eyes. Above 70fps though is where I run into diminishing returns though. 120fps vs 60fps isn't as drastic to me as 60fps vs 30fps.
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The placebo effect is very powerful.
 
ManofGod said:
30fps is fine at 4k resolutions such as in Crysis 3. Now, if someone disagrees and does not like it, fine. However, not you but those who would do so, do not bother coming in here and dictating that 60fps is the only way to go and I do not know any better type of crap. :rolleyes:
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Again; you cannot display smooth motion with 30 FPS on a 60Hz display.
The best you can try to do is hide the problems with motion blur, which is largely ineffective in most games, and doesn't fix the other problems of gaming at 30 FPS.

haste. said:
All I was trying to point out is that AMD cards inherently perform much better in Tomb Raider than Nvidia, and as a result it may not be the best piece of software to use for your comparison.
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Sure, but I used that as a test because:
a) It's the first game that came to mind which had a tessellation option
b) Because it's not an NVIDIA sponsored game it shouldn't be using excessive tessellation, and even then, a 960 can't handle it.

So the idea that GameWorks' excessive tessellation is acceptable because their cards can handle it without major performance hits, but AMD's can't, is wrong.
They might be better at tessellation, but the majority of cards are still not good enough if you want to be gaming at 60 FPS+.

haste. said:
With your 960 you should be able to enable tessellation on many games and handle 60fps. What is your rig (sorry if it's listed in your sig)? You must have a huge bottleneck. I just ran Tomb Raider bench on a 2500k @4.2ghz with a Strixx 960 and had 59.6fps avg with a 48 min on ultimate and had a 72 minimum fps on ultra (just lacking TressFX which is shitty in the first place). You should be able to max Tomb Raider even though it was designed for AMD...
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2500K at 4.5GHz.
The benchmark is quite misleading about real-world performance in that game. Many areas dip far below the minimum reported in the benchmark when tessellation is enabled.

Anyway, with my current settings, if I disable V-Sync the max/min/average are: 118.0/76.0/96.9
But like I said, the benchmark is not comparable to the demands of gameplay.
The settings I'm using are required to prevent it from every dropping below 60 FPS.
Enabling tessellation causes the game to frequently drop below 60 FPS during gameplay - even if I turn most other settings down.
48 FPS on a 60Hz screen (your results) is not acceptable to me.

damicatz said:
Unless you have robot eyes or your face is pressed up against the television, you do not need 4K because you can't tell the difference from the distance you sit from the TV.
4K TVs are nothing but magic beans being sold by snake oil salesman.
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Sorry to hear about your vision problems.

damicatz said:
The placebo effect is very powerful.
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I hope I misunderstood your post. You're not really trying to suggest that the difference between 30 and 60 FPS is placebo, are you?

This test alone should make it clear: http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates
Look at the awful judder and strobing that you get with 30 FPS on a 60Hz display.
 
mt2e said:
I'v felt Geforce Experience/Gameworks has been a ploy to segment game performance into tiers, this is as a Nvidia card owner.
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What did people think Gameworks was about, adding nice graphic features? It's meant to make older graphic cards slower and if possible make their competitors even slower. As long as AMD is worse off than Nvidia cards, Gameworks is doing its job.
 
Whoever said that 4k TV's had no place should educate himself in the concept of hyperacuity and read a bit about how the 120hz+ movement of our eyes plus our brain's image processing enhances what we can actually perceive beyond what seems to be the initial physical limitation of our eyes.
 
mt2e said:
I'v felt Geforce Experience/Gameworks has been a ploy to segment game performance into tiers, this is as a Nvidia card owner.
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Same here, nVidia user as well. Like their products but but dislike their recent market practices. I guess they know the average consumer's a dumbass so they do something that looks innocent to the hackey-sack minded person, a chess player sees the end game.
 
Ashbringer said:
What did people think Gameworks was about, adding nice graphic features? It's meant to make older graphic cards slower and if possible make their competitors even slower. As long as AMD is worse off than Nvidia cards, Gameworks is doing its job.
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And the way it works is that it makes older cards appear less powerful, finally exposing the dirty business of fake hardware improvements/progress. All new cards are the same performance as the older ones, but it's just dirty tricks that make them *seem* slower. #thegameisafoot

I'm embarrassed for this forum sometimes.
 
pxc said:
And the way it works is that it makes older cards appear less powerful, finally exposing the dirty business of fake hardware improvements/progress. All new cards are the same performance as the older ones, but it's just dirty tricks that make them *seem* slower. #thegameisafoot
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Keep in mind that the game is slow regardless of Gameworks features. Arkham Knight runs fine on consoles and they have the same hardware on PCs but much weaker. PS4 and Xbone are running AMD hardware and it's weaker hardware but the game is fine on them.

This might have been harder to spot when consoles were using PowerPC but everything runs X86 now. It's not just a bad PC port but a bad PC port with Nvidia ShitWorks to make it run even slower. You'd think Nvidia's Gameworks was meant to optimize games on PC not make them unplayable.
 
Arkham Night is poorly written such that it was withdrawn from the market on PC.
It shouldnt be used for any form of evaluation.
 
Nenu said:
Arkham Night is poorly written such that it was withdrawn from the market on PC.
It shouldnt be used for any form of evaluation.
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Why? Nvidia had their hand in it and approved the features in the game so why should it be exempt? Nvidia put their code in the game and didn't say anything about the 30 fps limit or how unplayable the game was? WTF is Gameworks suppose to do if it isn't enhancing the experience on PC?

This is a situation where by getting involved you deserve just as much of the blame as the developers themselves. There's a hole lot of "giving a shit" going on here.

Point is Nvidia and AMD should not be involved in game development. They should work on drivers and if they want to make free tools for game developers that's fine too. But don't put your code in the game cause this happens.
 
I keep saying it, and I'll say it again. The gameworks project should be something that the game ENGINE designers implement not the gpu maker.


frostbite 3, 4, n
cryengine
unity 5
unrealworks 4


Are these companies so inexperienced and impoverished that they cannot design an implement or license a universal physics system for their own engine? Or a method of simulating hair and more advanced lighting effects?


I don't expect every game developer under the sun invent a new graphical rendering method from scratch, but having the gpu maker lock in a particular path is asking for trouble, either by distorting performance charts or using inefficient methods (that still make their own hardware look better) to render specific effects.


You know what I want to see? I want to see a proof of concept, not a whole game, a "hair off" between hairworks and tress fx, let each company bring their latest tech to bare.

Does a tessellation heavy focus or a compute heavy focus bring better performance and visual quality to such effects? We don't know because we've NEVER had a direct comparison. I'd imagine one method is more efficient and/or delivers higher quality visuals for a given level of effort. Which method is that? Can we find out? Wouldn't that be an interesting thing for EVERYONE to know? I want to know a great deal, then gpu makers are not dictating what effects THEY want in games and how THEY want to design them to make their hardware look better, the game engine designers are the ones pushing on the effects side and influencing gpu makers on what kinds of hardware mixes and effects they want to focus more heavily on.


Maybe that is not how it should work, maybe the gpu maker has to be a bigger player, but I've NEVER heard a clear explanation of WHY. I want answers, I want the Truth.
 
Ashbringer said:
WTF is Gameworks suppose to do if it isn't enhancing the experience on PC?
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It's supposed to add pointless hair and smoke effects that are completely unrealistic if not totally distracting. Effects that most users turn off anyway.

Oh wait. Actually I meant it's an integral part of an underhanded ploy between evil Nvidia and dastardly game devs that's purpose is to destroy AMD and PC gaming as a whole. And also force you to buy a 980ti.

Because conspiracy, man.
 
I don't understand the hubbub about Gameworks. It's just additional graphics fidelity, at usually a very high cost. If you can't run it, Nvidia or AMD - don't run it. What's the big deal? I'm glad we are seeing some very high settings options that really push top end cards.
 
How well a game runs at the end of the day is the fault of the game developer. We dam well know not every developer/publisher combo cares at the end of the day about things being a master piece. Most developers don't use custom game engines for everything they use tools available to them and tweak whats necessary. Gameworks is one of those tools available to them, how well or poorly that is implemented is left up to them they can alter the code nvidia doesn't lock game developers out of that. Most just wont bother because that's resources, as long as it works that's good enough for most companies.
 
Ashbringer said:
Why? Nvidia had their hand in it and approved the features in the game so why should it be exempt? Nvidia put their code in the game and didn't say anything about the 30 fps limit or how unplayable the game was? WTF is Gameworks suppose to do if it isn't enhancing the experience on PC?

This is a situation where by getting involved you deserve just as much of the blame as the developers themselves. There's a hole lot of "giving a shit" going on here.

Point is Nvidia and AMD should not be involved in game development. They should work on drivers and if they want to make free tools for game developers that's fine too. But don't put your code in the game cause this happens.
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Yeah cos NVidia wrote the game and are responsible for it.
I'm going to ignore you.
Others will too because you are only into spouting crap that isnt worth any more responses.
 
SilverSliver said:
I don't understand the hubbub about Gameworks. It's just additional graphics fidelity, at usually a very high cost. If you can't run it, Nvidia or AMD - don't run it. What's the big deal? I'm glad we are seeing some very high settings options that really push top end cards.
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AMD users think Gameworks intentionally sabotages their performance.
 
Terpfen said:
AMD users think Gameworks intentionally sabotages their performance.
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I didn't feel that way with my AMD cards. I either disabled the features entirely or ran at reduced, forced tessellation. If I load up a game that has graphical settings my rig can't handle I either turn them down or off, or most likely, buy more power.
 
SilverSliver said:
I didn't feel that way with my AMD cards. I either disabled the features entirely or ran at reduced, forced tessellation. If I load up a game that has graphical settings my rig can't handle I either turn them down or off, or most likely, buy more power.
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Tell that to the people here who constantly complain, though.
 
Terpfen said:
Tell that to the people here who constantly complain, though.
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Look at AMD's marketshare. The only people left in their camp are fanbois or people who are uninformed that the fanbois convinced Nvidia is the devil. Within a generation or two of owning AMD products and seeing what comes out on the Nvidia side and their users get to enjoy in terms of design/performance/features compared to what they have/get - they'll jump ship back, a little more informed from actual experience. As for the fanbois - no logic or reason or facts will ever get through to them. Nvidia is the devil, and you have single handedly ruined all that is right with the world by not buying AMD like them.
 
Nenu said:
Yeah cos NVidia wrote the game and are responsible for it.
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Nvidia partially wrote code for the game. Graphics specific code. Even without Gameworks features you get stuttering, terrible optimization, crashes, and memory leaks. If Nvidia's Gameworks had any competent people they would have either fixed these problems, or pulled out their Gameworks program in fear of being labeled responsible for this. That's just common sense.

staknhalo said:
Look at AMD's marketshare. The only people left in their camp are fanbois or people who are uninformed that the fanbois convinced Nvidia is the devil. Within a generation or two of owning AMD products and seeing what comes out on the Nvidia side and their users get to enjoy in terms of design/performance/features compared to what they have/get - they'll jump ship back, a little more informed from actual experience. As for the fanbois - no logic or reason or facts will ever get through to them. Nvidia is the devil, and you have single handedly ruined all that is right with the world by not buying AMD like them.
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You think this is AMD vs Nvidia? Have you seen the latest Intel Iris Pro graphics on broadwell chips? The 5775C is nearly as good as a Nvidia GTX 750. Not sure about Skylake but Intel could eliminate the $100 graphics card market, and for a lot of people Iris Pro Graphics is really good enough.

But yea the only graphic cards in the world are AMD and Nvidia. Forget that Intel owns like over 50% of the market share. So this Gameworks doesn't just effect AMD but Intel users. So can we stop giving Nvidia a gold star for trying with Gameworks?
 
Ashbringer said:
Nvidia partially wrote code for the game. Graphics specific code. Even without Gameworks features you get stuttering, terrible optimization, crashes, and memory leaks. If Nvidia's Gameworks had any competent people they would have either fixed these problems, or pulled out their Gameworks program in fear of being labeled responsible for this. That's just common sense.
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Except Nvidia has ZERO to do with anything in what was delivered from the developer, when you simply just turn off Gameworks features. If the game has stuttering, terrible optimization, crashes and memory leaks with Gameworks off, can't blame Nvidia for that.
 
SilverSliver said:
Except Nvidia has ZERO to do with anything in what was delivered from the developer, when you simply just turn off Gameworks features.
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How do you know? Did you see the code? That's the key problem here in that nobody can see the code.
If the game has stuttering, terrible optimization, crashes and memory leaks with Gameworks off, can't blame Nvidia for that.
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Again, to what extent Nvidia's code works on or off the game? It's not a plugin system where you can just add smoke.nv and magically add more smoke effects. A lot of game engine code needs to be changed to accommodate these features.
 
staknhalo said:
^ Fanboi detected *beep* *beep* *beep*
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I think you have that thing pointed backwards. :D Personally, I do not much care anymore since I am older now and a bit wiser than I once was. I just do not have the same interest in gaming or games as I once did. Enjoy spending a lot of your money on what you want, I know I will do the same on other, more long term things. :)
 
Ashbringer said:
How do you know? Did you see the code? That's the key problem here in that nobody can see the code.

Again, to what extent Nvidia's code works on or off the game? It's not a plugin system where you can just add smoke.nv and magically add more smoke effects. A lot of game engine code needs to be changed to accommodate these features.
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Did YOU see the code? And it very much seems like a plugin system. Hairworks on, hair moves - Hairworks off - hair doesn't move. Either decide you want the frame rate hit and turn it on or don't.
 
staknhalo said:
If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting about it. Learn to lie better, lol.
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Posting about something is not the same as caring like I once did, nice try though. :) As you get older, you will understand. Until then, enjoy and try not to spend all your money.
 
ManofGod said:
I think you have that thing pointed backwards. :D Personally, I do not much care anymore since I am older now and a bit wiser than I once was. I just do not have the same interest in gaming or games as I once did. Enjoy spending a lot of your money on what you want, I know I will do the same on other, more long term things. :)
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This is the saddest post I've read today. A person who used to enjoy things like a trek through the mass effect universe, transported to a new world, has grown numb to such experiences.

Gods of the underworld, flying spaghetti monster, please do not allow me to stop enjoying such things, preserve my mind from turning rpgs into ash heaps of boredom.
 
tybert7 said:
This is the saddest post I've read today. A person who used to enjoy things like a trek through the mass effect universe, transported to a new world, has grown numb to such experiences.

Gods of the underworld, flying spaghetti monster, please do not allow me to stop enjoying such things, preserve my mind from turning rpgs into ash heaps of boredom.
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LOL! :D Nope, just better things to do with my time now. Competitive running or running in general is a lifestyle and takes up a lot of time. :) Also, I work on computers all day long, which I love to do, but gaming takes far more time than I have and games just are not as good as they once were. (Look prettier but the plots and story lines are not as good.)
 
ManofGod said:
LOL! :D Nope, just better things to do with my time now. Competitive running or running in general is a lifestyle and takes up a lot of time. :) Also, I work on computers all day long, which I love to do, but gaming takes far more time than I have and games just are not as good as they once were. (Look prettier but the plots and story lines are not as good.)
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I've been gaming since the 80's and now that I'm older I still love them just don't want to dedicate the time to it like I used to. There are a lot of other things in life to spend time and money on and arguably better.
 
canon.tk said:
I've been gaming since the 80's and now that I'm older I still love them just don't want to dedicate the time to it like I used to. There are a lot of other things in life to spend time and money on and arguably better.
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Enthusiast level computer gaming is by far my least expensive hobby now. I don't put the hours into it I used to, definitely not, but it's nice to be able to take 30 minutes during my kids nap time and just play a few rounds of something. My other hobbies I actually have to dedicate a few hours of time and a 20-30 minute drive there and back - topping it off they are more expensive. Doesn't mean I don't do them, but that's harder to squeeze in with kids.
 
Ashbringer said:
How do you know? Did you see the code? That's the key problem here in that nobody can see the code.
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The shaders emitted by GW to be executed on the GPU can be optimized like any shader code in games by a GPU maker's driver team. That's their job. AMD and Nvidia generally don't have access to game code when they optimize drivers for particular games, and that's NOT generally a problem, which is what makes AMD's whining silly.

Nvidia certainly isn't going to optimize new effects for older cards, leaving that to some fallback compatible path if the optimization depends on new features. And it's not even going to spend time optimizing effects for any AMD cards at all. If AMD feels an effect isn't as optimized as it could be, nothing stops AMD from replacing/tweaking shaders or doing whatever other tweaks it generally has done for many years. That's normal business. What's changed is that AMD has chosen to whine, literally lie and attack game makers, and plead for pity instead of just doing its job.
 
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