Anyone with a clue knows that the 6870 DESTROYS the 460 and those people will know why it costs more, as it rightly should. I don't think the 6870 is ment to compete with the 460 at all. 6850 perhaps.
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AMD 6850 and 6870 released, October 18
- Thread starter anthony256
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Anyone with a clue knows that the 6870 DESTROYS the 460 and those people will know why it costs more, as it rightly should. I don't think the 6870 is ment to compete with the 460 at all. 6850 perhaps.
Yes, it is. Especially when what you're actually paying for (perofrmance) measures up to the cost. If you want to pay for die size, the 5770 is still available for purchase.
If they charged 250 for the 6770 instead of the same die size on what they call a 6870 I would just groan "Too expensive" do my bit about die size and move on. Buying it later on.
Atleast AMD would be admitting its charging far too much. Maybe then I can speculate its a legit reason perhaps a run of bad yields and price will fall quickly later.
But the name change means AMD knows what is it doing when it comes to gouging customers. "It sounds more badass so we get to charge more and keep charging more"
Traditionally price stays the same curve from generation to generation a company inst entitled to a bigger profit just because it is more powerful than the previous generations. Otherwise my onboard graphics would be expensive as a used car.
This crap about. "Oh it gets near last gen so you get to pay more" and acting like it is normal is insane. I dont want another 5850 I want the next gen.
cannondale06
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it looks to be less than 25% faster than stock gtx460. the 6870 is already at 900mhz so how far do you really think it will oc? any gtx460 will easily oc by 20-25% or more and scales linearly. so who knows at this point but there could be very little gap between the cards when both are overclocked. again though IF the 6870 is 30% more while providing less than 25% improvement over the stock gtx460 many people will be disappointed.
needmorecarnitine
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$50 more in profit is acceptable to me. Its their business, they can do what they want. I'm going to consider buying the new cards and when I do I will compare it to how they perform against the GTX 460 and how much all the choices cost. You can base your decisions on die size and how fair their margins are, no one will stop you.
So are you against profits in any way or just against companies making more of a profit than they did in the past? Or increasing the amounts of profits beyond a certain amount within a certain amount of time?
I'm sure you are aware that almost anything you have that comes through a company might have been made with a profit. Do you boycott everything or does your philosophy only apply to videocards?
If you believe the official slides saying its a magical 30percent better than the 460s Real world benches will likely cut that in half or worse.
Even when it was called the 6770 did we think it would be that good.
cannondale06
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I would think $249 sounds about right for launch MSRP but that earlier link had a card at $284 with 10 bucks off for $274. that may not mean anything but then again it could be a typical price.
Tamlin_WSGF
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When I clicked on the link to amazon from this thread, the price was $269.99 and $274.99 with Super Saver Shipping. Something is fishy there, but its the closest thing we have to a real price. I noticed that a vanilla Evga GTX 460 1GB have a listing price of $265.92 before offers and rebate. Its going to be nice when we get a final purchase price of the 6870 and 6850.
Its' a newer card. If it performs 30% better but costs more than 30% more that's pretty much par for the course when it comes to the latest tech. It's the norm, not the exception. So again, I don't see what the fuss is about. If you don't want to pay that much then don't but also don't go around complaining and waiving the rip-off flag beucase you don't want to pay fair market value for new hardware.
Ati have had some driver problems with mouse pointer, artifacts, and with nvidia chipsets they are doomed to come.
Nvidia drivers doesnt even show my screen, so much for being perfect, and my ati drivers isnt perfect either, grass is always greener on the other side, when it may be a patch of greener grass.
Ati is the real winner, they gain market share, more profit for cards, smaller memory bus, much smaller DIE, and yet same performance, and if the new gen give even more performance per mm^2 nvidia could find them in real trouble.
Do understand 5870 could be HALF the price, yes, HALF. ( factoring only manufacturing cost)
and yeah, amd gains market share, and with APU amd do fill the whole market, and can compete in a way nvidia simply cannot.
Intel on the other hand, sandy brigde, will compete, and it will most likely kill nvidia's laptop lineup and squize them pretty much out, if they stay at 54xx 64xx 74xx performance( indication shows 5570 level performance)
Nvidia must have some really good cards, and play them well to stay in game i reccon.
and if it happens, i really really hope intel or w/e comes quickly into the gpu market for real so we wont have a monopoly..
Nvidia drivers doesnt even show my screen, so much for being perfect, and my ati drivers isnt perfect either, grass is always greener on the other side, when it may be a patch of greener grass.
Ati is the real winner, they gain market share, more profit for cards, smaller memory bus, much smaller DIE, and yet same performance, and if the new gen give even more performance per mm^2 nvidia could find them in real trouble.
Do understand 5870 could be HALF the price, yes, HALF. ( factoring only manufacturing cost)
and yeah, amd gains market share, and with APU amd do fill the whole market, and can compete in a way nvidia simply cannot.
Intel on the other hand, sandy brigde, will compete, and it will most likely kill nvidia's laptop lineup and squize them pretty much out, if they stay at 54xx 64xx 74xx performance( indication shows 5570 level performance)
Nvidia must have some really good cards, and play them well to stay in game i reccon.
and if it happens, i really really hope intel or w/e comes quickly into the gpu market for real so we wont have a monopoly..
cannondale06
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well if all next gen cards performed 25% better while costing 30% more each time we would already be paying over $2000 for mid range video cards by now.
uhhh, no they wouldn't becaue by the time a replacement card comes along the price of the outgoing card has already dropped.
Tamlin_WSGF
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All next gen cards will be priced according to the market situation at the time they are released. The same way all past gen cards have been.
On a side note, how big assed GPU's would we have and would Nvidia/AMD make if they could price their GPU's according to die size as Zachstar suggests? I mean, neither of the GPU makers would even want to make small die sizes then...
HD 7870 $50 000 GPU. Die size 5m x 5m FTW!
needmorecarnitine
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On a side note, how big assed GPU's would we have and would Nvidia/AMD make if they could price their GPU's according to die size as Zachstar suggests? I mean, neither of the GPU makers would even want to make small die sizes then...
HD 7870 $50 000 GPU. Die size 5m x 5m FTW!
I would also like to announce that I am now selling used videocards with BETTER die size/$ ratios than any 68X0 card. This offer is open to Zachstar and anyone else!
needmorecarnitine
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... and I'm going to donate profits to less fortunate companies entitled to profits.
cannondale06
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not necessarily and you are still wrong because we usually pay less for more performance with a next gen card in same bracket.uhhh, no they wouldn't becaue by the time a replacement card comes along the price of the outgoing card has already dropped.
Tamlin_WSGF
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I would also like to announce that I am now selling used videocards with BETTER die size/$ ratios than any 68X0 card. This offer is open to Zachstar and anyone else!
Price/performance = value? Heck no, price/die size FTW! Large die size = big e-penis!
So when the 5870 replacement comes, you think it's going to cost less then a 5870? Shall we place a wager on that?
cannondale06
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of course it will probably cost a little more. if the performance is much faster than the price increase then that would be nice though. unlike the 4870 the 5870 cards only went up in price so to me they are already too high IMO though.
Vertigo Acid
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There have been a lot of you toeing the line in this thread.
Let me reiterate the first rule around these parts:
(1) Absolutely NO FLAMING, NAME CALLING OR PERSONAL ATTACKS. Mutual respect and civilized conversation is the required norm.
So lets tone it down. Argue all you want about the technical merit of the hardware. But leave the personal attacks out of it, even the thinly veiled crap.
Let me reiterate the first rule around these parts:
(1) Absolutely NO FLAMING, NAME CALLING OR PERSONAL ATTACKS. Mutual respect and civilized conversation is the required norm.
So lets tone it down. Argue all you want about the technical merit of the hardware. But leave the personal attacks out of it, even the thinly veiled crap.
That's what I said and you very clearly said I was wrong...
Of course it would be NICE to get more for less, none of us are saying we don't WANT a 6870 for $200-$250 when we are saying however is that it's price is not a bad fit in relation to it's performance.
The 5870 replacement is the 6870. AMD changed the name game not us. AMD wants this new *9 where they can sell high prices cards forever and a day.
The 5870 skyrocketed for a LEGIT reason. Supply was extremely low due to TSMC failures. Also a new process node normally means a temporary increase in prices.
The 6x crap is trying to act like it is on a new node with pricing AND wants to claim a midrange die is worth over 220.
Low yields = Higher price vise versa but suddenly whooo that isnt the case. Those who dare stand against this crap are supposedly whiners.
But hey I will put foot in my mouth if this card magically drops below 220 before december. That is right folks if the 6870 drops below 220 USD before december I will buy it instead of the planned 460 and I will self decalre myself WTFpwned. I feel quite safe that wont happen because if AMD intended to fairly price this they would have kept the 6770 name.
Tamlin_WSGF
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Lower price would always be nice!
However, the GPU companies price their cards according to market situation, not previous generation where the market situation might have been different. The 6800 series is ment to be pitted up against the GTX 460 series by AMD as a part of a "sweet spot" strategy according to previous slides in this thread. Price/performance has been one of the main matrices on how to compare cards the last decade and when people buy cards, they consider what they get for the money versus other offerings upon time of purchase.
You just spent this whole time arguing that it's a 5770 replacement and when your argument fails you say its a 5870 replacement. Great, then you still have nothing to complain about becuase it's cheaper than the 5870.
(I think we all know it's not a 5870 replacement, you aren't fooling anyone, I doubt even yourself)
(I think we all know it's not a 5870 replacement, you aren't fooling anyone, I doubt even yourself)
I read the entire thing. Like I said, your position doesn't make sense, when the flaw in your logic is pointed out, you claim it was taken out of context. It hasn't been, not by me and not by the other gentleman several pages back.
cliffs:
me: the newer generation cards normally cost a bit more
you: no you're wrong, newer cards typically cost less and give more then the card they're replacing
me: ok, so you're saying the 5870 replacement will cost less, want to bet?
you: no, of course the replacement will cost a little more
cannondale06
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we were pretty spoiled with the awesome bang for buck 4800 cards so its hard to justify what some of these cards will cost. and yeah performance/price is pretty important to many people especially around the $200 mark. of course when I try to talk about how the 6870 compares to the gtx460 I get picked apart by a couple of people in this thread though.Lower price would always be nice!
The 6800 series is ment to be pitted up against the GTX 460 series by AMD as a part of a "sweet spot" strategy according to previous slides in this thread. Price/performance has been one of the main matrices on how to compare cards the last decade and when people buy cards, they consider what they get for the money versus other offerings upon time of purchase.
cannondale06
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the 6870 is meant to beat out the gtx460 but if it doesn't do so on price/performance then it will defeat the reason why many people are waiting for this card. I have said the same damn thing over and over so if you don't get it by now then I an not wasting any more time with you.
needmorecarnitine
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but 5870 stayed high. Not sure about the original msrp but I believe its $380. Just checked newegg right now and the average price for a 1GB card is $361.
Supposedly, the 6870 is slower. How much we will find out soon enough. But it looks like it will be priced a lot less than $361 so if the performance is close, it could still end up with a lot better price/$ ratio.
Your reasoning has been flawed each time you've said it. So lets not waste each others time. The price is the price and AMD will have no problems selling them.
Most people will look at the cards and say "I can get a card that performs at near 5870 levels with power consumption less than a 5850 for the price of a 5850"
Then there will be the minority who will say "omg, for this price I can get the same die size as 5850, what a rip"
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Price per unit of performance simple not flawed.
needmorecarnitine
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It didn't "suddenly" change. It was never right. You don't understand how it works. Yields affect pricing but they don't dictate pricing.
Tamlin_WSGF
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That is true and I think its the $200 mark segment AMD is aiming for. If the slides are correct, both the 6850 and the 6870 should beat the GTX 460 in price/performance.
The 5850 was outperforming both the $244.99 OC version of GTX 460 and the vanilla version. 6870 is supposed to be faster then the 5850:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/10/18/asus_engtx460_top_1gb_video_card_review
That card costs $244.99 on Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...89&cm_re=asus_engtx460-_-14-121-389-_-Product
On Amazon (where the 6870 price came from), the list price for the same card is $277.68, but is on offer for $254.49:
http://www.amazon.com/PCI-Express-E...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1287561967&sr=1-2
The 6870 was $269.99 ($274.99 with super saving shipping) on Amazon. Chances are that we see a lower price on newegg for the 6870 and even lower for the 6850.
Edit:
About the 4000 series bang for buck... That is a prime example on how the current market situation determines the price of the card and not the previous generation. The GTX 280 had a launch price of $649, but came very fast down in price due to the change of competition in the market with the 4000 series.
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Vertigo Acid
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Was there some part of my warning that wasn't clear?
Stop the bickering, stop the flaming, or there will be a handful of you taking a few days off.
Stop the bickering, stop the flaming, or there will be a handful of you taking a few days off.
cannondale06
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I would assume the 22nd
Tamlin_WSGF
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As many has mentioned, AMD is pitting this card up against the GTX 460. According to the slides from AMD, the price will be between $150 and $250. Amazon and others might price it higher, but MRSP might be as shown on the slide:
cannondale06
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how do we know all these slides are real? I mean one of the slides was comparing the 6870 to the 5850 yet it had the memory bandwidth of the 5870 listed under the 5850 specs. could AMD possibly screw that up??
also whatever happened to all that talk about new more efficient shader design as it appears now that it is using the same 4+1 design. so basically we end up with a card with slightly less shaders than a 5850 but much higher clocks so it can beat it? in the end the power consumption is the same as the 5850 to barely beat it with a smaller chip?
also whatever happened to all that talk about new more efficient shader design as it appears now that it is using the same 4+1 design. so basically we end up with a card with slightly less shaders than a 5850 but much higher clocks so it can beat it? in the end the power consumption is the same as the 5850 to barely beat it with a smaller chip?
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APEXNETHOR
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Yeah I must admit AMD is definitely leaving me quite confused on their direction with their new refresh products this year. But I'm getting this impression that it's all about price reduction in manufacturing more so than anything.
Then again I could be wrong.
Never the less I'll reserve my judgment on the new line of ATI/AMD GPU's for the Test bench here at [H]ard OCP.
Then again I could be wrong.
Never the less I'll reserve my judgment on the new line of ATI/AMD GPU's for the Test bench here at [H]ard OCP.
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