Amazon's New Refunds Policy Will Crush Small Businesses, Outraged Sellers Say

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monkeymagick

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Merchants have a few unpleasant things to say about Amazon as the company sent out emails to its sellers of a new return policy. Starting Oct 2, marketplace sellers -- no matter their location, will be forced to refund any return requests without recourse. Some sellers are reporting the company will allow exemptions for a certain number of items. In addition, Amazon is giving some sellers the option of having customers not the return shipment of an item and issuing a "returnless refund." The policy follows Amazon's recent agreement to refund app purchases by kids.

The latest policy changes are directed at sellers who choose to fulfill orders themselves instead of using Fulfillment by Amazon. Amazon is making every effort to provide the same experience for customers regardless of whether the products they buy come from Amazon or a third-party merchant.
 
This is kind of the same reason I gave up selling stuff on Ebay 5+ years ago. It allows people to basically rob you with zero consequences.

I guess Amazon wants to get rid of the small sellers and just deal with the huge Chinese mega sellers.
 
half the shit on amazon is 10 cent to 1.00 trinkets that use up more money and time shipping back for returns than its worth.
alot of cheap chinese crap on amazon that isnt worth refunding and sending back
 
I got screwed a few times on Ebay selling stuff. I was never a big seller either - maybe 40-50 items over my selling experience? I had 3 transactions where I got screwed and couldn't do anything about it.
I raised a flag to Ebay each time - they claim to have looked into it, but sided with the buyer each time. One item was for a few hundred bucks - it was a mobo+cpu+ram that was tested and worked before I shipped it. The seller said it didn't work, left me negative feedback (before contacting me or anything), and canceled payment. I asked for the product back - was refused. I filed a complaint against Ebay and they basically told me to suck it up. Honestly, wasn't worth the hassle of me doing much else to pursue it.
I haven't used Ebay for anything since. Amazon's new policy sounds like it will lead to similar issues for sellers. Sucks - any other markets like Ebay or Amazon to sell? I've bought stuff from the [H]ardForums before and had good results (and deals).
 
Then in a few years they will start taking down the bigger ones...

A war of attrition.
 
Well, guess this leaves room for a new company to pop up for small sellers
 
I was just fucked over by them. They didn't tell me a customer was returning something and I never recieved it (Package probably stolen, or not delivered). 2 months later I have negative $450 on my account for a product that I delivered on time, worked, etc....and never got back.

When I contacted Amazon they said the customer has a 100% gaurentee A to Z happiness and that I have to eat it. I contacted USPS the carrier and they said "Well since it wasn't insured we aren't responsible".

So out my item and out $450.
 
trentchau said:
I was just fucked over by them. They didn't tell me a customer was returning something and I never recieved it (Package probably stolen, or not delivered). 2 months later I have negative $450 on my account for a product that I delivered on time, worked, etc....and never got back.

When I contacted Amazon they said the customer has a 100% gaurentee A to Z happiness and that I have to eat it. I contacted USPS the carrier and they said "Well since it wasn't insured we aren't responsible".

So out my item and out $450.
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You need to insure high priced items. $450 absolutely needs to get insured. How many times do people need to here this all for the sake to save a couple bucks?

UPDATE: OP did insure the original shipment to the buyer as stated in later post. mybad!
 
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All those chicks making knit-art and home-made jewelry on Etsy must be sweating-out all their essential oils........."Could this happen to us, too?? No No Etsy is a Peaceful Planet, we have no weapons....".
 
Bowman15 said:
You need to insure high priced items. $450 absolutely needs to get insured. How many times do people need to here this all for the sake to save a couple bucks?
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I can insure it to them, but when the buyer returns it if they don't insure it it's considered a lost. It was insured going there, and once it was delivered it was considered done. Do you want to continue riding your high horse telling people to do things they already do?

I wasn't told it was being returned, I couldn't insure a package I didn't know was coming.
 
Well not really sure what to say about this. As a honest customer I find it reassuring. Unfortunately, I know all too well there's many people who're only happy when they get something for nothing-the ongoing entitlement phenomenon.

In regards to the mention of insurance and USPS, I consider it a small miracle whenever something is actually correctly delivered. I live in a city of ~100-200k and most of the people I know have issues with either not receiving or getting the wrong mail. Not saying that FedEx, or UPS, or any of the others are perfect just that I cringe when I see something is coming via USPS but it would be very easy to start another thread just on that.
 
bunch of hypocrites ITT, everyone loves amazon because they can return anything without any consequences, now you're outraged ?
 
trentchau said:
I can insure it to them, but when the buyer returns it if they don't insure it it's considered a lost. It was insured going there, and once it was delivered it was considered done. Do you want to continue riding your high horse telling people to do things they already do?

I wasn't told it was being returned, I couldn't insure a package I didn't know was coming.
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Ok got it straight now, that's mybad! Yup you seriously got screwed. I had that happen once and the guy didn't want to return it (think video card?) eBay sided with me but that might be before all of their "policy" adjustments?
 
Sucks for the small guy. Doesn't really effect me though since I only buy things with prime shipping from amazon.. been screwed to many times by buying direct from the seller.. also why I'll never use eBay again for buying or selling, dumb policies and PayPals a joke.
 
Doesn't Amazon
trentchau said:
I can insure it to them, but when the buyer returns it if they don't insure it it's considered a lost. It was insured going there, and once it was delivered it was considered done. Do you want to continue riding your high horse telling people to do things they already do?
I wasn't told it was being returned, I couldn't insure a package I didn't know was coming.
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Is there no protection in place for sellers? Just curious. I mean, if Amazon screwed up and didn't tell you a return was coming isn't that on them?
 
Bowman15 said:
Ok got it straight now, that's mybad! Yup you seriously got screwed. I had that happen once and the guy didn't want to return it (think video card?) eBay sided with me but that might be before all of their "policy" adjustments?
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Wanted to say sorry for being snappy also, I guess it's my annoyance at how Amazon's been treating me. This happened only 20 days ago. And for me to do anything for Paypal (who I use) I have to physically write a response in and snail mail it, they don't have a web form for it.


kohl said:
Doesn't Amazon


Is there no protection in place for sellers? Just curious. I mean, if Amazon screwed up and didn't tell you a return was coming isn't that on them?
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I think their protection they setup is for them and only them, and it's to have some guy or lady at a work center in India telling me that it's my fault.
 
ymer said:
bunch of hypocrites ITT, everyone loves amazon because they can return anything without any consequences, now you're outraged ?
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Pretty much. This is why I never have an issue buying the cheap Chinese shit on eBay (especially the cheap under $10 stuff). If I ever have a problem 99% of the time I just get a refund. Helps me by not bothering me with returning something not worth returning and helps the seller because they don't have to deal with returns, RMA's with the manufacturers, throwing it away, etc.

So yeah, I can see how this could hurt someone, for sure. However, it can also help the consumer. But as always there's the chance for abuse.
 
As an Amazon customer, I wish they would remove the random sellers from the main store. They should have an "Amazon Marketplace" or some other site for all the people selling random stuff / small businesses. I honestly get tired of sifting through all the 3rd party sellers when I'm buying something. I try to focus on the "prime eligible" items. I still can't seem to get my wife or the parental in-laws to grasp this, and sometimes I have received gifts from "Amazon" that was actually through a 3rd party seller that I couldn't return. This probably changes all that.

Now, from a seller standpoint... I've never sold on Amazon but I've sold plenty of stuff on Ebay. And yeah, there are some douchebags out there that like to screw people. And Ebay will side with the buyer 100% of the time. So now I try to be careful about what I list and who I sell to. But Ebay makes their money off of the resellers/powersellers, not so much the small time people who sell a handful of things a year. But if I'm selling on Amazon, and someone demands a refund, what are you gonna do? You'd have to honor it, because Amazon is a store, and people return things. Ebay shouldn't have this expectation, but they kind of do.

So yeah I guess the short answer is, sellers might get shafted every now and then by returns.
 
The returnless return is what is crazy.

You can buy shit that works and you like and keep it AND get your money back......wow.

Now I feel the same as other folks, I ve learned to only buy from Amazon. The sellers are sometimes as shady as they are on eBay.

I did have a "return-less" return the other day though. Bought 12 coffee mugs and 6 were broken.
Sent Amazon a picture.
The guy told me to keep the stuff and issued me a refund right there.
 
daglesj said:
This is kind of the same reason I gave up selling stuff on Ebay 5+ years ago. It allows people to basically rob you with zero consequences.
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One of the reasons I haven't sold anything on Ebay for the last few years. The other is the higher costs, such as them limiting shipping/handling fees and then taking a percentage of the fees. Also the increase in paypal & shipping costs.

Most the cheaper stuff I used to sell, now ends up getting donated or given away. Just not worth the hassle for almost no return.
When I was selling on Ebay also I took the expectation anything I sold could be ripped off, so rarely sold anything worth more than $40.
 
I was selling screen protectors, and because of their horrible return policy and crazy fees I'm phasing it out, will do custom airbrushed phone cases for a much much higher markup if I want to continue with amazon. Not to mention the $30/month fee.
 
I'm always amazing by this. Why are people SHOCKED when they are 100% reliant on a middleman to make their revenue stream work decides to change the rules to their benefit. Fuck...next thing I will hear is that water is wet.
 
magoo said:
The returnless return is what is crazy.

You can buy shit that works and you like and keep it AND get your money back......wow.

Now I feel the same as other folks, I ve learned to only buy from Amazon. The sellers are sometimes as shady as they are on eBay.

I did have a "return-less" return the other day though. Bought 12 coffee mugs and 6 were broken.
Sent Amazon a picture.
The guy told me to keep the stuff and issued me a refund right there.
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Yea, Amazon pretty much protects the buyer not the seller. I was given a gift at Christmas a few years ago, Assassin's Creed Black Flag, i got the gift and it was actually AC: Revelation, but it was labeled at BF on the item label. My wife called amazon and they said ok we will send you another correct copy of the game. They never asked for the other game back. I just ended up giving to a friend but they didn't want it back. I'm not sure who or how my wife ordered it but someone was out the item and i ended up with 2 games for 1. They could careless about the sellers really. Im lucky i only sold books while in college and never had any issues with dishonest customers.
 
daglesj said:
This is kind of the same reason I gave up selling stuff on Ebay 5+ years ago. It allows people to basically rob you with zero consequences.

I guess Amazon wants to get rid of the small sellers and just deal with the huge Chinese mega sellers.
Click to expand...

This happened to me. Sold an old videocard on Ebay and the guy said it didn't work. Total BS considering I tested it right before I listed it. Then on the ebay TOS it says "someone cannot return a product once used or modified". The guy emailed me to say he tried using it and it would work but only for half an hour then stop so he admitted he opened it up, reapplied the thermal paste, then reassembled it. Clearly it's not even my videocard anymore since the guy fucked with it. Ebay gave the guy a refund including all shipping costs out of my pocket. So then I had to appeal which took like 2 weeks and finally they admitted "you're right, they shouldn't have given a refund". I eventually got my money back but I will NEVER sell on ebay again. EVER.
 
Burticus said:
As an Amazon customer, I wish they would remove the random sellers from the main store. They should have an "Amazon Marketplace" or some other site for all the people selling random stuff / small businesses. I honestly get tired of sifting through all the 3rd party sellers when I'm buying something. I try to focus on the "prime eligible" items. I still can't seem to get my wife or the parental in-laws to grasp this, and sometimes I have received gifts from "Amazon" that was actually through a 3rd party seller that I couldn't return. This probably changes all that.

Now, from a seller standpoint... I've never sold on Amazon but I've sold plenty of stuff on Ebay. And yeah, there are some douchebags out there that like to screw people. And Ebay will side with the buyer 100% of the time. So now I try to be careful about what I list and who I sell to. But Ebay makes their money off of the resellers/powersellers, not so much the small time people who sell a handful of things a year. But if I'm selling on Amazon, and someone demands a refund, what are you gonna do? You'd have to honor it, because Amazon is a store, and people return things. Ebay shouldn't have this expectation, but they kind of do.

So yeah I guess the short answer is, sellers might get shafted every now and then by returns.
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I believe that you can filter for this. It takes a few clicks but it's doable. I agree. I very much dislike accidentally buying from a third party seller. Usually poor shipping and if there's an issue Amazon is kind of meh about it.

magoo said:
The returnless return is what is crazy.

You can buy shit that works and you like and keep it AND get your money back......wow.

Now I feel the same as other folks, I ve learned to only buy from Amazon. The sellers are sometimes as shady as they are on eBay.

I did have a "return-less" return the other day though. Bought 12 coffee mugs and 6 were broken.
Sent Amazon a picture.
The guy told me to keep the stuff and issued me a refund right there.
Click to expand...

I had large operation selling surplus / closeout motorcycle parts and gear. We often jump let people keep an item if there was any kind of issue at all. Generally the things that we sold were under $20, so the cost of shipping it back combined with the man hours made it more profitable to simply apologize, refund them and let them keep it, even if it was something like pink instead of what they thought was going to be 'hot pink'. Keeping your seller rating up is also very important so in the end getting a negative review even if the buyer was in the wrong was quite damaging.

As for the return policy. I do believe just like brick-and-mortar stores, customers should have the right to return absolutely anything for any reason other than gross negligence or fraud. There are systems in place at Amazon to sniff out habitual returnees. Heck, I even got an email once as we got a string of broken things in the mail from Amazon and a few items that didn't work.
 
I can see pros and cons to both sides of this. On eBay I have a lot of sympathy for how anti-seller things are - because random sellers are the entire point of eBay, it's like an online flea market. Amazon is different. As a buyer, I go to Amazon to buy from Amazon, not random ass sellers. Mostly, it's having to deal with the sellers that I hate.

3rd party sellers on Amazon are all about price wars, doing everything they can to sell their item for $0.01 less than the others so their item ends up at the top of the search results. Nothing wrong with competition causing lower prices of course, but when that becomes literally the only factor, and people don't even care who the actual seller is because of the Amazon middle-man, it really opens up the door for seller scams.

Sellers like to use Amazon as a dumping ground for defective items that got returned from their real store and stuff like that. So I end up getting shit items, like when I ordered shock guards for my RC truck, and instead of the package coming with a front-left and front-right, it came with a front-left and a rear-left. Then when I bought a plastic water-pipe, it arrived with a crack already in it that would cause it to leak. Sellers know that even if half of the people who receive these broken or defective items return them, that still means that they get to make money from the other half.

Then when you try to setup a return, you were forced to talk to the 3rd party seller, where they accuse you of trying to scam them by starting the return, or demand that you return the item first on your own dime, etc. Fuck that. Unfortunately the only real way to protect buyers from this is to make things considerably less friendly for sellers. Either the system facilitates buyer scams or it facilitates seller scams, can't really be good for both at the same time. Buyer's create the market. Sucks to be a seller. I sell all of my stuff on Craigslist, and the few times I sold something expensive on eBay, I had every account connected to paypal drained empty for months ready to give paypal and eBay the finger if they authorized a refund.
 
magoo said:
The returnless return is what is crazy.

You can buy shit that works and you like and keep it AND get your money back......wow.
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The biggest problem with this policy change is it feeds the abusive buyers that EXPECT "returnless returns" and "free 30 day rentals" - people that have no intention of keeping an item in the first place. Amazon is feeding a cancer, which is fine for them since they're a big enough host organism to sustain the moochers and parasites, but it can be devastating for smaller sellers.

No honest seller minds the return of a legitimately defective item. If I sell a $99 espresso machine with $35 in consumables (pods), and a buyer sends it back after a week because it stopped making coffee, fine.

But if I sell a $99 espresso machine with $35 in consumables, and the buyer demands a refund on Day#29, I have to pay for the return shipping, and all the consumables have been used up, and the buyer is like "LOL thanks for the free rental of the machine and free coffee" - or worse, the buyer wants a refund AND wants to keep the item "or else I'll give you negative feedback". These kinds of buyers are loving this new seller-hostile policy.
 
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I thought Amazon's returns were pretty painless and generous to begin with. Not sure I completely understand the need to go full retard with refunds and sellers though?
 
Cry me a river. I had the same problem with eBay when it came to selling. They only believe the buyer and kept screwing over the seller further by hiking up fees and such. Know what I did? I stopped selling there. Fuck 'em.
 
monkeymagick said:
Merchants have a few unpleasant things to say about Amazon as the company sent out emails to its sellers of a new return policy. Starting Oct 2, marketplace sellers -- no matter their location, will be forced to refund any return requests without recourse. Some sellers are reporting the company will allow exemptions for a certain number of items. In addition, Amazon is giving some sellers the option of having customers not the return shipment of an item and issuing a "returnless refund." The policy follows Amazon's recent agreement to refund app purchases by kids.

The latest policy changes are directed at sellers who choose to fulfill orders themselves instead of using Fulfillment by Amazon. Amazon is making every effort to provide the same experience for customers regardless of whether the products they buy come from Amazon or a third-party merchant.
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Fellas, check this out; I bought this telescope 2 months ago

150250:516:705:contain.jpg


I also ordered this thing along with it called a Power Tank which is an external power supply. I wanted to return it, but they wouldn't accept the return (wasn't eligible). So, instead they still refunded me my money but let me keep the item below. Totally weird. The item was brand new; I just didn't have a use for it anymore and when I chatted with customer care to clarify they said I can either dispose of it, donate, or or whatever. Very strange. This happened about 2 months ago so this must be a policy they are implementing slowly, or this particular item which is essentially a large battery was a safety risk to return.

celestron-power-tank-12-volt-7-amp-power-supply-18774-0ff.jpg
 
Trepidati0n said:
I'm always amazing by this. Why are people SHOCKED when they are 100% reliant on a middleman to make their revenue stream work decides to change the rules to their benefit. Fuck...next thing I will hear is that water is wet.
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Companies can change their policy, it's how it is. I'm just not a fan when it 100% fucks someone over.
 
trentchau said:
I couldn't insure a package I didn't know was coming.
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You don't have too, that was the buyer's responsibility. Amazon needs to make this right. Maybe someone will open a class action law suite because you're definitely not alone regarding this kind of shady business practice. Problem is, the System is corrupt through and through so any law suit against a large profitable company would go ... no where really and so, at least for now - they truly are above the law
 
trentchau said:
Companies can change their policy, it's how it is. I'm just not a fan when it 100% fucks someone over.
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Did you not read what I wrote. How could they not see the "fucking over coming". Every time, in history, when there is a middleman that you are reliant on, THEY WILL fuck you over. Run with scissors, run with a sword, run with a scalpel...result will always be the same.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Did you not read what I wrote. How could they not see the "fucking over coming". Every time, in history, when there is a middleman that you are reliant on, THEY WILL fuck you over. Run with scissors, run with a sword, run with a scalpel...result will always be the same.
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Would it suprise you that some companies don't 100% fuck people over, or are you that disheartened?
 
_l_ said:
You don't have too, that was the buyer's responsibility. Amazon needs to make this right. Maybe someone will open a class action law suite because you're definitely not alone regarding this kind of shady business practice. Problem is, the System is corrupt through and through so any law suit against a large profitable company would go ... no where really and so, at least for now - they truly are above the law
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Yeah it really sucks. I'm still in the process of waiting for what they come up with but it's not something I'm willing to bet will end up in my favor.
 
This is awesome news. Totally warranted because of the horrible QA going on with 3rd party retailers on Amazon. In the past 6 months more than half of the items I've ordered through 3rd parties on Amazon have shipped me the wrong item, and because of the return policy I have to take time out of my busy schedule to repackage and ship the wrong item back.

The most egregious instance was a few months back when I ordered a bed frame, and it came unassembled without any screws, dowels, or anything to hold it together. I just got a huge box full of wood and instructions on assembling it. Contacted Amazon and I told them "it's cool, I can understand if they forgot to put the screws in one box, can happen to the best of people, just send me the missing screws I don't mind." Amazon said they couldn't do this because it was a 3rd party seller, and the 3rd party seller would need to issue a replacement. The seller said they would ship me another full frame because they couldn't open a box to take the screws out, and told me to take the new full frame and send back the old one without the screws. They shipped the 2nd frame overnight and before I had the return shipping label from them for the first frame, the 2nd frame arrived at my door. Guess what, the 2nd frame was also missing screws! I had to contact them again and get a refund, then haul 2 boxes full of wood (7 foot long boxes mind you) down to UPS during business hours to ship them back.

The worst part is that they allow these terrible 3rd party sellers to be Prime eligible, which defeats the purpose of Prime when it costs me time out of my day to fix their errors.

I'm really glad Amazon listened to my pleading with them to change their policies.
 
Remember when you could make a living being a small business essentially on Amazon and Ebay? Man those times are all but gone basically. If stuff doesn't work, or damaged in shipping, orwrong item then yeah you should be able to return it, given you can prove it doesn't work. But if you don't like an item or wasn't what you were expecting you shouldn't be able to return it imo. You made your choice as a buyer, it's your job to be responsible and accept risk.

Shipping issues are a fire all thier own, those fucking people ruin packages and damage items, leave them to get stolen. And they basically are responsible for nothing, they don't get stuck reimbursing anyone unless you let them extort you.





I can't fathom why anyone would bother trying to sell anything more than a few things on eBay and Amazon anymore. Unless you can do volume, you are screwed by fees, taxes and present shipping charges in some cases. And now this.
 
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