Amazon Workers Lose Monthly Bonuses, Stock Awards as Minimum Wage Increases

Staples

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I am sure some employees are affected by lower compensation but I doubt many. If they were paying close to minimum wage in most of America ($7.25), I find it hard to believe that most employees did not see a huge boost.
 

Draax

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That's actually a huge problem with the minimum wage nonsense. It often prices unskilled labor right out of the market. Why hire 10 guys to dig for fair wages when you can just hire one and a Bobcat (or whatever the hell you dig ditches with).
Instead of 10 people having jobs, one is employed.
Push this 15/hour crap and unemployment will rise. History shows us this is true and there is no reason to think this time would be any different.
This is false.

Numerous states raised their minimum wages higher than the federal level during the 1997-2007 period the federal minimum wage remained stuck at $5.15. Research by the Fiscal Policy Institute and others showed that states that raised their minimum wages above the federal level experienced better employment and small business trends than states that did not.

In the 2015 report, Minimum Wage Policy and the Resulting Effect on Employment, the research institute Integrity Florida observes, "Economists cite several reasons why increases in the minimum wage, which raise employers’ cost, generally do not cost jobs. Increased pay adds money to workers’ pocketbooks and allows them to buy more goods and services, creating higher demand, which in turn requires hiring more workers. The higher wage may make it easier to attract applicants and results in less turnover of workers, lowering costs of employers." They report, "Our examination of employment statistics in states found no evidence of employment loss in states that have increased the minimum wage and more evidence that suggests employment increases faster when there is an increase in the minimum wage."

The people who benefit the most from a minimum wage increase tend to spend more money locally which benefits local business and often helps to increase employment.

It is the trickle down bullshit which doesn’t work.
 
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mesyn191

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The people who benefit the most from a minimum wage increase tend to spend more money locally which benefits local business and often helps to increase employment. It is the trickle down bullshit which doesn’t work.
Yuuup.

People who make min. wage, or near min. wage, spend every dollar they make which goes back into the economy to buy goods and services. The rich spend 5-10% of what they make and reinvest in stock markets or hide the rest in various tax shelters. That is why giving the rich more money is a net negative for the economy and giving wage workers money is a net positive.
 
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Smashing Young Man

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Minimum wage screws over those who busted their ass to make more than minimum. It's rare that those making more have their pay upped to compensate. The floor gets higher but the ceiling remains the same.
 

mesyn191

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Minimum wage screws over those who busted their ass to make more than minimum.
Nope.

Their wages aren't being cut so no one is getting screwed.

If anything higher min. wages put upwards pressure on other wages over time so it evens out in the long run.
 

Laowai

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There have also been studies on the effects of employment on the areas and countries that have raised their min. wage drastically, to $15 or more in some cases, and unemployment didn't skyrocket or increase all that much either.
Odd. I wonder why it is that world renowned economists disagree. Friedman, Sowell, and Walter Williams come immediately to mind as being against any form of minimum wage. Here's a study worth reading.
http://sci-hub.tw/10.3386/w23532
“Minimum wage laws are about as clear a case as one can find of a measure the effects of which are precisely the opposite of those intended by the men of good will who support it. Many proponents of minimum wage laws quite properly deplore extremely low rates; they regard them as a sign of poverty; and they hope, by outlawing wage rates below some specified level, to reduce poverty. In fact, insofar as minimum wage laws have any effect at all, their effect is clearly to increase poverty. The state can legislate a minimum wage rate. It can hardly require employers to hire at that minimum all who were formerly employed at wages below the minimum. It is clearly not in the interest of employers to do so. The effect of the minimum wage is therefore to make unemployment higher than it otherwise would be.”

Milton Friedman, Capitalism and Freedom [1962]
Unfortunately, the real minimum wage is always zero, regardless of the laws, and that is the wage that many workers receive in the wake of the creation or escalation of a government-mandated minimum wage, because they lose their jobs or fail to find jobs when they enter the labor force. Making it illegal to pay less than a given amount does not make a worker’s productivity worth that amount—and, if it is not, that worker is unlikely to be employed.”

― Thomas Sowell, Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Econom
Article by Walter Williams
https://www.creators.com/read/walter-williams/02/17/minimum-wage-and-discrimination
 
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Draax

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Contrary Research

Lawrence F. Katz and Alan B. Krueger, “The Effect of the Minimum Wage on the Fast Food Industry,” Industrial Relations Section, Princeton University, February 1992.

David Card, “Using Regional Variation in Wages to Measure the Effects of the Federal Minimum Wage,” Industrial and Labor Relations Review, October 1992.

David Card and Alan Krueger, Myth and Measurement: The New Economics of the Minimum Wage (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1995).

David Card and Alan B. Krueger, “Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania: Reply,” American Economic Review, December 2000 (in this reply, Card and Krueger update earlier findings and refute critics).

Jared Bernstein and John Schmitt, Economic Policy Institute, Making Work Pay: The Impact of the 1996-97 Minimum Wage Increase, 1998.

Jerold Waltman, Allan McBride and Nicole Camhout, “Minimum Wage Increases and the Business Failure Rate,” Journal of Economic Issues, March 1998.

A Report by the National Economic Council, The Minimum Wage: Increasing the Reward for Work, March 2000.

Holly Sklar, Laryssa Mykyta and Susan Wefald, Raise The Floor: Wages and Policies That Work For All Of Us (Boston: South End Press, 2001/2002), Ch. 4 and pp. 102-08.

Marilyn P. Watkins, Economic Opportunity Institute, “Still Working Well: Washington’s Minimum Wage and the Beginnings of Economic Recovery,” January 21, 2004.

Amy Chasanov, Economic Policy Institute, No Longer Getting By: An Increase in the Minimum Wage is Long Overdue, May 2004.

Fiscal Policy Institute, States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level Have Had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth, March 2006 (update of 2004 report).

John Burton and Amy Hanauer, Center for American Progress and Policy Matters Ohio, Good for Business: Small Business Growth and State Minimum Wages, May 2006.

Paul K. Sonn, Citywide Minimum Wage Laws: A New Policy Tool for Local Governments, (originally published by Brennan Center for Justice) National Employment Law Project, May 2006.

Liana Fox, Economic Policy Institute, Minimum Wage Trends: Understanding past and contemporary research, November 8, 2006.

Paul Wolfson, Economic Policy Institute, State Minimum Wages: A Policy That Works, November 27, 2006.

Arindrajit Dube, Suresh Naidu and Michael Reich, “The Economic Effects of a Citywide Minimum Wage,” Industrial & Labor Relations Review, July 2007.

Jerold L. Waltman, Minimum Wage Policy in Great Britain and the United States (New York: Algora, 2008), pp. 17-19, 132-136, 151-162, 178-180.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Do Minimum Wages Really Reduce Teen Employment?, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 28, 2008.

Michael F. Thompson, Indiana Business Research Center, “Minimum Wage Impacts on Employment: A Look at Indiana, Illinois and Surrounding Midwestern States,” Indiana Business Review, Fall 2008.

Hristos Doucouliagos and T. D. Stanley, "Publication Selection Bias in Minimum-Wage Research? A Meta-Regression Analysis," British Journal of Industrial Relations, vol. 47, no. 2, 2009.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Spacial Heterogeneity and Minimum Wages: Employment Estimates for Teens Using Cross-State Commuting Zones, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 25, 2009.

Arindrajit Dube, T. William Lester and Michael Reich, Minimum Wage Effects Across State Borders: Estimates Using Contiguous Counties, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, August 2008.
Published by The Review of Economics and Statistics, November 2010.

John Schmitt and David Rosnick, The Wage and Employment Impact of Minimum‐Wage Laws in Three Cities,Center for Economic and Policy Research, March 2011.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Do Minimum Wages Really Reduce Teen Employment? Accounting for Heterogeneity and Selectivity in State Panel Data, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 21, 2010.
Published by Industrial Relations, April 2011.

Anne Thompson, What Is Causing Record-High Teen Unemployment? Range of Economic Factors Drives High Teen Unemployment, But Minimum Wage Not One of Them, National Employment Law Project, October 2011.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube, Michael Reich and Ben Zipperer, Credible Research Designs for Minimum Wage Studies, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, IRLE Working Paper No. 148-13, 2013

John Schmidt, Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?, (Important overview of years of research), Center for Economic and Policy Research, February 2013.

Michael Reich, Ken Jacobs and Miranda Dietz (eds.), When Mandates Work: Raising Labor Standards at the Local Level (Berkeley CA: University of California Press) 2014.

Michael Reich, The Troubling Fine Print In The Claim That Raising The Minimum Wage Will Cost Jobs, (Response to CBO report), Think Progress, February 19, 2014.

Michael Reich, No, a Minimum-Wage Boost Won’t Kill Jobs, (Response to CBO report), Politico, February 21. 2014.

Michael Reich, Ken Jacobs and Annette Bernhardt, Local Minimum Wage Laws: Impacts on Workers, Families and Businesses, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, IRLE Working Paper No. 104-14, March 2014.

Dale Belman and Paul J. Wolfson, The New Minimum Wage Research, W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research, Employment Research 21:2, 2014.

Dale Belman and Paul J. Wolfson, What Does the Minimum Wage Do?, W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research, (book) 2014.

Center for Economic and Policy Research, States That Raised Their MinimumWage in 2014 Had Stronger Job Growth Than Those That Didn't, April 2014.

Center for Economic and Policy Research, Update on the Thirteen States that Raised their Minimum Wage, August 2014.

Daniel Kuehn, The Importance of Study Design in the Minimum Wage Debate, Economic Policy Institute, September 2014.

Justin Wolfers and Jan Zilinsky, Higher Wages for Low-Income Workers Lead to Higher Productivity, Peterson Institute for International Economics, January 13, 2015.

Peterson Institute for International Economics, Raising Lower-Level Wages: When and Why it Makes Economic Sense, April 2015.

David Cooper, Lawrence Mishel and John Schmit, We Can Afford a $12.00 Federal Minimum Wage in 2020, Economic Policy Institute, April 2015.

National Employment Law Project, City Minimum Wage Laws: Recent Trends and Economic Evidence, Updated May 2015.

Alan Stonecipher and Ben Wilcox, Minimum Wage Policy and the Resulting Effect on Employment, Integrity Florida, July 20, 2015

Paul J. Wolfson and Dale Belman, 15 Years Of Research on U.S. Employment and the Minimum Wage, Tuck School of Business Working Paper No. 2705499, December 2015

National Employment Law Project, Raise Wages, Kill Jobs? Seven Decades of Historical Data Find No Correlation Between Minimum Wage Increases and Employment Levels, May 2016
 

Laowai

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This is false.
How can you argue it? With studies I can counter with other studies? OK.
I am well aware that there are studies on both sides of the issue which is why I quoted economists directly. I sure as hell don't feel like reading all the studies either for or against.

Just think for a minute as if you were an employer. Remove feelings from the equation.

Would you hire somebody for X amount if they're not worth X?
Pretty damn unlikely.
 

mesyn191

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Odd. I wonder why it is that world renowned economists disagree. Friedman, Sowell, and Walter Williams come immediately to mind.
Hahaha world renowned?? Maybe for being pro-Rich to a fault.

Also quoting their propaganda books isn't proof of anything you realize that right?

Why don't you look at the study that Draax mentioned?

http://sci-hub.tw/10.3386/w23532
No its not. That is a incomplete non-peer reviewed paper and its findings so far aren't consistent with anyone elses.

There are other studies on the effects of the Seattle min. wage increases that show a completely different picture for instance.

Article by Walter Williams
Hahaha so now you're resorting to posting crap from someone who claims that modern min. wage increases are somehow inherently racist because in the 1930's there were some racist motivations for raising the min. wage??

You're overreaching pretty hard there.
 

mesyn191

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I sure as hell don't feel like reading all the studies either for or against.
Hahaha so you expect others to read, and be convinced by, your studies but if others post studies that contradict yours, no matter how good they might be, that is just too much work for you read and consider?

Come on. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Just think for a minute as if you were an employer. Remove feelings from the equation.

Would you hire somebody for X amount if they're not worth X?
Pretty damn unlikely.
Employers don't think like this.

Not now and not historically.

Employers aren't interested in paying a fair wage and will not reasonably consider or fairly judge a potential employees skills. They're only interested in paying the absolute minimum they can get away with. And if they had their way they'd re-implement the truck system (which was banned because it was de facto slavery) in a heart beat.
 

Draax

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How can you argue it? With studies I can counter with other studies? OK.
I am well aware that there are studies on both sides of the issue which is why I quoted economists directly. I sure as hell don't feel like reading all the studies either for or against.

Just think for a minute as if you were an employer. Remove feelings from the equation.

Would you hire somebody for X amount if they're not worth X?
Pretty damn unlikely.

How can I argue it? With the logic in my first post supported by every single one of the studies I linked. Employees who are making minimum wage only have so much money to spend in their local economy. If they are given an increase in their wages they have more to spend and they do. This causes an increase in demand for products and services which causes employers to hire more people.

How many times has trickle down economics failed? Horse and sparrow theory, reaganomics, and now trickle down economics. The rich horde their wealth, they do not put it back into the economy. Its not the rich who drive the economy … its the everyday working person.

There are no feelings involved in my stance … only the logic clearly presented. I would simply like for everyone to receive increased compensation (everyone wins) instead of being a proponent for a race to the bottom in which everyone loses except for the very few.
 

MMitch

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Why should employees make more money? Just because?
There's been a pretty big push by certain elements who are seemingly oblivious to simple economics to raise the minimum wage to $15.00. He caved before he was forced to.
The liklihood that it would hurt some employees was always very high.
You don't get something for nothing.

I'd be pretty damn pissed if it were me but nobody is forced to work for them at $15/hr or $10/hr.


He's not entitled to raise them nor is anything entitled to make more. What I meant is he went out to media and sold the idea that they were giving more employees and used this PR spin as publicity while in the end... it's not that true.
Don't get the wrong idea, I think raising minimum wage too fast would be bad. I only meant that what he did was false advertising and he should take responsibility.
 

Laowai

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He's not entitled to raise them nor is anything entitled to make more. What I meant is he went out to media and sold the idea that they were giving more employees and used this PR spin as publicity while in the end... it's not that true.
Don't get the wrong idea, I think raising minimum wage too fast would be bad. I only meant that what he did was false advertising and he should take responsibility.
Fair enough.
 

Draax

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Don Boudreaux … yikes. Here is a gem of a quote form him regarding insider trading:
"is impossible to police and helpful to markets and investors... Far from being so injurious to the economy that its practice must be criminalized, insiders buying and selling stocks based on their knowledge play a critical role in keeping asset prices honest—in keeping prices from lying to the public about corporate realities."

He wrote an entire article supporting price gouging after a disaster

Is he really someone to put trust in?
 

Gigantopithecus

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I hope the media pressure make them review their decision(s).

Over the last five years, my personal/household spending on Amazon shrank from more than $10,000 in 2014 to less than $300 so far in 2018.

Why are you waiting for the media to act? You control your own wallet.
 

Cyraxx

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Amazon's spokesperson says the increase in wages offsets and surpasses their total cash compensation of their former wages + incentive-based bonus... meanwhile some workers contradict this saying they will now earn less than before.

Right, the folks who were under-performing or doing the bare minimum were probably getting smaller/zero bonuses and are now thrilled by the increase in base wages and elimination of incentive-pay. It makes sense, they get paid even better to do the minimum amount of work. Meanwhile those who were nailing all of their performance metrics, maximizing their incentive pay, now have their wages capped along with their under-performing peers. I've been there as recently as 3 years ago, and made the decision to move elsewhere in my company, which allowed me to keep my incentive pay.

Socialism... Everyone (supposedly) works equally. Thus we all (supposedly) get paid the same. It's what the millenials wanted right?
 

SPARTAN VI

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Socialism... Everyone (supposedly) works equally. Thus we all (supposedly) get paid the same.

A bit off-topic. Amazon is privately owned, and increasing hourly wages while dropping incentive pay doesn't make them socialist.

It's what the millenials wanted right?

The majority of millennials, sure, but broad strokes like "millenials want socialism" paints a distorted picture. I'm on the older end of the millennial generation (32 years) and have been a lifelong Republican. We're probably outnumbered 2-to-1, but there are still a lot of votes in my generation that can swing things the (R)ight way.
 

Cyraxx

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Personally I prefer to have bonuses if I work harder than everyone gets the same pay. Because... well someone doing the bare minimum gets paid the same as someone been a hero on the floor..
Stupid and counter-productive because said "hero" will just slack off and you lose overall output.

Also, now, there's 0 incentive to innovate or work harder.

I like to be compensated for my ideas and hard work and I think this should be the norm. You work the minimum you get X. You bring new ideas and train others, you get YZ.
It's not true that because you have the same job title that you do the same amount of work, this should be recognized and years of work isn't the way.

Yeah but there are 2 sides to the coin. The ole dangling the carrot makes sense for driving hard work - BUT that shouldn't come at the cost of say... working excessive hours, not taking time off, etc... You shouldn't have to give up raising a family on the prospect of getting a promotion... But thats what it has become as people keep having kids at later and later ages.... until the point where it's so late they can't have any and have to pay a surrogate or something

This is what our salary system has become... You work hard (60+ hour weeks) all on the PROSPECT of becoming promoted and getting a good raise / bonus. But not everyone gets what they want still.... Yet they always continue to dangle that carrot and insinuate you need to work more.

Instead, we need better regulation to limit everyone to 40 hours (Anything else MUST be paid time and half REGARDLESS of being salary or not)... That tells you who is TRULY productive and who is not.
 
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Anemone

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I'm finding it interesting that the "wage" wasn't the only part of the compensation equation. So by complaining and gaining public support for "wages" being too low, they did not at all discuss the stock or other bonuses. This seems to be rather smart on Amazon's part because they did point out that the arguments being made to the public weren't the whole story. So now, you have a wage only compensation covering the employee base with the removal of any incentives for performance or company ownership. Wonder how long it'll be till they ask for it back the old way.
 

Cyraxx

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A bit off-topic. Amazon is privately owned, and increasing hourly wages while dropping incentive pay doesn't make them socialist.



The majority of millennials, sure, but broad strokes like "millenials want socialism" paints a distorted picture. I'm on the older end of the millennial generation (32 years) and have been a lifelong Republican. We're probably outnumbered 2-to-1, but there are still a lot of votes in my generation that can swing things the (R)ight way.

I wasn't indicating that it makes them socialist. I think it's catering to the incompetent fools that are pushing the socialist movements though I guess is my point.

Everyone knows that when stupid kids start getting older and actually earning money and actually paying taxes instead of receiving from other people's taxes - they are much more likely to turn conservative. It's what happens when you start working instead of taking.

Thankfully though apparently Generation Z is supposedly coming out conservative at a young age instead of their millennial counterparts. Time will tell though.
 

seanreisk

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Would you hire somebody for X amount if they're not worth X? Pretty damn unlikely.

You just put up your own fallacy. If I had a business that required employees because I couldn't do all the work myself, and if after paying my employees I enjoyed a substantial profit, then it doesn't matter how stupid the work is or how stupid I think the employee is. If I want that money, I have to hire the employees.

If I have a business that requires employees, and requires me to pay my employees a substandard wage in order to keep the doors open, I have a failed business.

If I pay my employees so poorly that they qualify for subsidies, food stamps and other government benefits while I take an upper-middle class wage out of that business, that makes my business a tax-subsidized business. If my business is subsidized by the government, then local, state and federal governments have a right to pass laws concerning how I compensate my employees.

Economics 101.
 

wareyore

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The biggest long term winner to any significant minimum wage hike is the government. Poverty levels shift over time and a nice bump across the line moves people off the benefits roles while increasing the tax base.

CA knows how to play this game. They are mimicking the feds by letting local municipalities enact their own while maintaining a lower state min wage. Sanctuary cities and min rate increases custom fit for each area - which will CA prosecute an employer for violating?

During tough economic times it's hard for the government to push with out direct blow back. In better times, no one even talks about them. Just all the chatter about corporate greed and socialism.
 

sirmonkey1985

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Yeah but there are 2 sides to the coin. The ole dangling the carrot makes sense for driving hard work - BUT that shouldn't come at the cost of say... working excessive hours, not taking time off, etc... You shouldn't have to give up raising a family on the prospect of getting a promotion... But thats what it has become as people keep having kids at later and later ages.... until the point where it's so late they can't have any and have to pay a surrogate or something

This is what our salary system has become... You work hard (60+ hour weeks) all on the PROSPECT of becoming promoted and getting a good raise / bonus. But not everyone gets what they want still.... Yet they always continue to dangle that carrot and insinuate you need to work more.

Instead, we need better regulation to limit everyone to 40 hours (Anything else MUST be paid time and half REGARDLESS of being salary or not)... That tells you who is TRULY productive and who is not.

yup i learned the hard way years ago trying to do more gets you absolutely jack shit, instead they just expect you to work the extra hours anyways because you did it before.. and fuck salary jobs, companies have way to much freedom on dictating work hours.. i'll never touch a salary job again. i'm perfectly fine with making less money knowing i work 40 hours a week and no more than that unless i agree to work overtime.
 

potency

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Years ago I worked at a place that promised all pay increases would be merit based. They even instituted an extensive program to evaluate all employees using not only manager and peer input, but other productivity metrics as well. So when I found out from someone who had helped crunch the numbers that I was tied with one other guy for most highly rated programmer/analyst, I was thrilled. Then I discovered that everybody got the same percentage increase and I was pissed. There were a few people there that everybody knew were lucky to keep their jobs, and a lot more that only deserved a COLA. The turnover got bad after that, and 6 months later I was working somewhere else too. So yeah, Socialism sounds good, but doesn't work because when people work harder (or better), they expect to get more in return. It's human nature.

So the 'merit-based' pay was bullshit? Sounds like typical corporate games, not socialism.

But yeah, in too many places, sadly, the reward for working hard is more work, not more pay.
 

exlink

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Hmm, this turned out better than I expected to supplement for the increased minimum wage. I was fully expecting layoffs and increases in automation at their facilities.
 

Laowai

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You just put up your own fallacy. If I had a business that required employees because I couldn't do all the work myself, and if after paying my employees I enjoyed a substantial profit, then it doesn't matter how stupid the work is or how stupid I think the employee is. If I want that money, I have to hire the employees.

If I have a business that requires employees, and requires me to pay my employees a substandard wage in order to keep the doors open, I have a failed business.

If I pay my employees so poorly that they qualify for subsidies, food stamps and other government benefits while I take an upper-middle class wage out of that business, that makes my business a tax-subsidized business. If my business is subsidized by the government, then local, state and federal governments have a right to pass laws concerning how I compensate my employees.

Economics 101.
Easy fix. Get rid of the welfare State.
 

seanreisk

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Easy fix. Get rid of the welfare State.

That's dumb. So you're saying that you'd prefer civil war and the murder of all the wealthy elites, followed by a new socialist government controlled at the federal level? Because that's what happens with your 'easy fix'. Once people can no longer acquire the basic necessities like food, shelter and medical care civil war happens and the state is overthrown. Happened in France, Tajikistan, Russia, Ireland, El Salvador, Cambodia, Vietnam, Spain, China (many times), Sierra Leone, Cuba, Germany, many counties in India. Poverty has its roots in so many conflicts, it's one of the reasons we created a DEMOCRACY so that the rule of THE PEOPLE would out weigh the rule of the wealthy and prevent things like this from happening.

It's ok, the wealthy do it to themselves. The rich are famous for making a hundred times the pay of the working poor but complaining that the poor are eating them alive. The sad thing is, the middle class who are supported by the wealthy will back the wealthy until it's too late. But humans are stupid, we never learn from past mistakes.


P.S. I'm a pro-business Republican. But I'm not a pro-rich Republican sycophant. The Trump tax cut was the biggest farce ever pulled on the middle class in this country, but I know people who make less than $40k a year who talk about it like it was a great achievement.
 
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Way to spin a cost cut Bezos -- save money by raising the minimum wage. (y)

Hey, the money's gotta come from somewhere.
And why should Bezos have to foot the bill?

He's running a business. Not a charity...
 

Laowai

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ROFL! Please, tell me someone else sees the irony here!
I know you think you're being clever, but there isn't any irony there.

Anyway, you can feel free to pretend that the worst-case scenario is exactly what would happen just because feelings.
Civil war...
Mass-murder.....
Nobody can get a job....
Socialist gov't.....

Your earlier comment is one appeal to fear after another.
Then you threw in a Trump tax-cut remark for....random reasons.

You're silly.
 

strikeout

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Should the majority be getting a bonus over the minority? If the majority is getting a bonus over the minority is it then a bonus? Is it then an award for performance or is it an intrinsic change?


It depends on the metric. Lots of companies have department or facility wide metrics which gauge how much of a bonus the workers will get. If the metric is no workplace injuries for a year for the fulfillment center, then yes everyone contributed. Now if the metric is, everyone who doesn't call in sick for a whole quarter gets a $500 bonus, then no. Only the ones who achieve it should receive it. So that question gets another question. Are we playing tennis or football?
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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Remove feelings from the equation.

Would you hire somebody for X amount if they're not worth X?
Pretty damn unlikely.

they can't...

as for this min wage crap it is all working towards giving all people the same income regardless of what they do....
 

bigsnyder

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If a union gets into amazon.....all the workers will pay union dues and make even less.

Not necessarily. I worked in a unionized factory and membership was voluntary. Of course non-membership means that one does not qualify for many of those benefits.
 

seanreisk

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I know you think you're being clever, but there isn't any irony there.

Sure there is. Cathy Newman is a liberal who is famous for debating without offering factual counterpoints or functional ideas. We're talking about you.

Anyway, you can feel free to pretend that the worst-case scenario is exactly what would happen just because feelings.

Cathy, I'm not 'pretending', and that is not 'my feelings', that is historical precedent. Both in the reality of the events I described, and the desire of our forefathers to craft a government that would avoid recreating the tragedies of our Revolutionary War allies, the French. And might I say, Cathy, good job on failing to debate the point, but instead using a reverse of our positions and accusing me of not being on topic because of 'pretending' and 'feelings'.

Civil war...
Mass-murder.....
Nobody can get a job....
Socialist gov't.....
Your earlier comment is one appeal to fear after another.

Cathy, those are not fears, those are realities from history. They are historical fact. Poverty based wars and riots are something the World Bank (and UN, supposedly, but not really as far as I can tell) have been working to avoid. Whats interesting is that the economists who chair the World Bank (those PhD eggheads who have studied this shit their whole life) are constantly comparing American poverty to international poverty and using the United States as a model for poor development decisions made towards a stable economy. Our economy swings violently because we do not have controls on our markets. Our nation is compressing wealth faster than any nation in the world, all without an increase in standard of living for the middle class or the poor.

These are facts, and facts are those regrettable, boring things that wrong-thinking people deny so they can continue to do whatever they want.

Then you threw in a Trump tax-cut remark for....random reasons.

No, I threw in the Trump tax cut because it's a prime example of what I've been talking about (and you've been avoiding talking about). Wealth compression and the damage it causes to an economy. 15 countries downgraded US bonds when that tax cut was passed. Why? Because they thought the US economy was weakened by those cuts.

Lets not forget we're sitting on a ton of debt. Nations don't go bankrupt, but they do implode.

You're silly.

Yes, I am. I'm quite silly. If I could, I would choose to live my days in blithe silliness. Silliness is sublime.
 

MMitch

Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
807
Yeah but there are 2 sides to the coin. The ole dangling the carrot makes sense for driving hard work - BUT that shouldn't come at the cost of say... working excessive hours, not taking time off, etc... You shouldn't have to give up raising a family on the prospect of getting a promotion... But thats what it has become as people keep having kids at later and later ages.... until the point where it's so late they can't have any and have to pay a surrogate or something

This is what our salary system has become... You work hard (60+ hour weeks) all on the PROSPECT of becoming promoted and getting a good raise / bonus. But not everyone gets what they want still.... Yet they always continue to dangle that carrot and insinuate you need to work more.

Instead, we need better regulation to limit everyone to 40 hours (Anything else MUST be paid time and half REGARDLESS of being salary or not)... That tells you who is TRULY productive and who is not.


Well yeah.. but I don't recall saying workers should be slave too lol.
I like my 37.5hours/w paid by the week and every OT is paid and I decide when to do it but again, I'm not in the same business as an amazon warehouse employee.
I think people should be paid for a week and if they do OT, well pay the OT.

I also think people should be rewarded based on their work (Doing OT can show employee is flexible but I agree, making a family shouldn't block but that person should be able to find another way to make up for the lack of flexibility, like out of box thinking?)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we try to say the same thing... I think the sweet spot is in the middle but people tend to focus on both extremes...
 
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