Am I being plagued by the Capacitor Plague here? (a few photos to show)

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DaRuSsIaMaN

[H]ard|Gawd
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Apr 22, 2007
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Check out a few shots of my MoBo:






These are the bottom 3 caps from reverse angle:



Larger versions of the above can be seen 1.here, 2.here, and 3.here.


Yes, this is an old motherboard, Socket A, in fact. Is this really the infamous "capacitor plague" that I am witnessing with these caps? The odd thing is that this motherboard works! I have not done strenuous testing but so far it boots every time; seems to have no problems. I spent a lot of time screwing around with BIOS settings. I even flashed the bios and installed WinXP on a freshly plugged in hard drive (all before I noticed these caps). And I never got any shut downs, no random reboots, no instability problems or other weirdness as far as I remember. So, if these really are failed capacitors, why is the mobo still working? Am I going to experience problems later if I continue using it? Like if I start playing games? Or is it safe to say that it will continue working perfectly if I haven't had any issues yet?

This mobo is the Gigabyte GA-7N400 Pro, by the way. Thanks.
 
Looks like failing caps to me. In fact the two black ones in the third pic looks ready to go anytime. I hope you've backed up your data.
 
I've had boxes with bulging caps that haven't exhibited any symptoms. It will start failing eventually. You should recap the board before the capacitors burst which could permanently damage the board. If you've got a soldering iron then decent caps should only be maybe $15 or less to recap the board.
 
The board in this pic was not only running fine when I took the pic but it ran for about 3 months longer until I replaced it. It never did fail...

a7m266caps.jpg
 
Yes those are bulging caps in the OP's pictures. They are bad. As for the pics of the leaky caps, I've seen boards that look like that and still worked, but I'd never use a processor/ram I liked in one. :D
 
Those are definitely failed capacitors, and you should stop using the motherboard immediately. You might not notice any stability problems, but it is very possible that your CPU is being slowly damaged. Unless of course you don't care if that happens, in which case it doesn't really matter either way...
 
I'd be willing to guess those caps serve as power filtering (hence the reason the mobo still works). The more blown caps you have the more likely a minuscule power surge will take out everything on the board. Even having one blown cap is pretty risky with regards to the cpu.
 
Bulging caps are never a good sign.

I just replaced the caps in my LCD display. The filter caps on the power supply were bulging. The display didn't work any longer. I recapped the power supply, and the LCD is back to life.

Sadly there are a lot of bad cap makers out there.
 
Now that's what I call a double-whammy :eek: Those caps are not part of the capacitor plague, per-se, which was caused by the flood of board makers moving to cheap taiwanese caps (Elite, OST, Tayeh, Fuhjyyu, Chhsi being some of the most well known brands). Most of those in the pics are Nichicon HM or United-Chemi Con KZG series caps (both well-reputed japanese brands). The nichicon HM & HN had problems with overfilled electrolyte from the factory, so the venting occurs with most all those used with a date code from 2002-2004 (my old A7N8X had vented HM). UCC KZG series have problems with operating in electrically demanding/high-temp applications, even though they are specified for use in high-frequency power supply filtering (smps) applications. It has been documented on several occasions over at badcaps.net that several motherboards that had vented caps replaced with KZG had failed later, including some boards that originally came with KZG as well. OvrrDrive's pic is in fact of an A7N8X, which is similar to how my board's caps looked before I replaced them.

If you do keep using that board, you'll probably end up with something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vp6_blown_capacitor.jpg
One day, the mobo will either go up in smoke, or it will just stop working. And if you're lucky, it won't corrupt whatever files you're working on first ;)
 
Possibly they are counterfeit parts? Or are these known manufacturing issues?
 
I might try using the board lightly for a couple months until summer arrives if I don't find the time to work on this now. But, well I definitely want to try and replace the caps. If not right now then later. In any case it seems like it won't be terribly difficult. Where do you guys buy the capacitors for this?

http://www.capacitorlab.com/ has some suggested sites to buy from, but maybe anyone knows better?
 
DigiKey and Mouser are the big guys that are pretty nice to people with small orders, at least in North America. Unless you have a friendly local shop that carries this stuff (if you're in a large city there probably is, but you might not get a lot of choice on manufacturer/value/series), anyway.
 
I've always used mouser myself, and digikey for anything mouser didn't have. I tend to stick with Rubycon MBZ caps for the VRM (>1000uF, 6.3/10/16V), and Rubycon YXG for the lower-priority/smaller filter capacitors dispersed around the board (typ. 1000uF 6.3/10V types) which I buy on ebay; certain UCC, Nichicon, Panasonic, Samxon and Sanyo series will work equally well (must be high ripple current/low ESR types for the larger caps, used in the VRM). Some of these brands will not have an identical part to replace what you have (in terms of matching voltage/capacitance/size), so you need to check datasheets beforehand.

I'll go ahead and tell you that those large KZG are 10mm diameter, the tall Nichicons are 8mm and the shortest one (near the ram slot) appears to be 6.3mm (can't tell but it could be 8mm). The diameter->lead-spacing conversion is standardized across the brands so you just need the diameters to find a size match. Also, the nichicon HM/HN problems have long since been fixed, so there's no reason to hesitate in considering them; do not, however, buy UCC KZG/KZJ caps, they're still the same as before.

Some replacements for the Nichicon HM are: Panasonic FJ/FL, Rubycon MBZ/MCZ, Nichicon HM/HN/HZ or Sanyo WG. There are likely others, but you'll have to examine the datasheets to make sure the replacement is roughly the same or better in terms of ripple-current and ESR (at the same measurement temp), for replacements of equal or slightly greater capacitance/voltage. KZG can be replaced with anything similar to the HMs. Last but not least, you must replace all of the caps that are the same brand/series as *any* of the vented ones if you don't want to be doing it again down the road (or have stability issues from non-vented caps that have gone bad).

Some potentially useful links:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=613 - worldwide sources
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7944 - replacement discussion
http://www.badcaps.net/pages.php?vid=31 - cap replacement tutorial
 
I'd not bother with fancy caps you can't just buy anywhere like Rubycon and Sanyo. Panasonic, Nichicon and UCC are probably the easiest to get. Since PM650 says the problems with those Nichicon series are fixed, I'd probably just go with direct replacements, Mouser carries the line. I've heard that fake caps are very common on eBay (at least audio types, anyway), so I'd be wary of buying there just to get a particular series.

Curious where Panasonic FJ/FL come from, they're not listed on Panasonic's site, probably old models. FC/FM/FK/FR (are FK and FM perhaps replacements for FJ/FL?) are the types that should be comparable, any of them should work, FR is extra long life.

Also something you may want to factor into your purchase is the reliability rating.
 
keenan said:
Curious where Panasonic FJ/FL come from, they're not listed on Panasonic's site, probably old models. FC/FM/FK/FR (are FK and FM perhaps replacements for FJ/FL?) are the types that should be comparable, any of them should work, FR is extra long life.

Also something you may want to factor into your purchase is the reliability rating.
Click to expand...

The FJ/FL option came from recommendations in a thread on badcaps (2nd link in my last post). Evidently, those lines were only sold directly to OEMs, so availability will only be overstock being sold off in rare cases; I probably shouldn't have included those in retrospect (guess I should've said 'possible replacements' in that list).

The rubycons I bought were from american sellers with several other brands for sale, so I'm fairly confident in them being authentic. I know some badcaps members buy their favorite brands/series from certain chinese ebay sellers and had no problems, but I agree that it's best to avoid this if an alternative is readily available at mouser/digikey - I bought mine on ebay since I was buying several dozen and it ended up being cheaper.
 
Hey everyone. Sorry about leaving this thread to rot for a while. I was super with college and couldn't find the time to get started on this capacitor business... But now I'm ready!

So, first off, thanks for the detailed help so far, especially PM650. But now I'm confused about navigating/shopping Mouser. I'm here:
http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/_/N-5g7r/

Then what? Which category do I need? I thought it's the first one, "Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors" but then there's 4 sub-categories after that; is the "Leaded" subcategory the right one? Sorry if it's a dumb question but I don't know what the technical name of these types of computer caps is. I also thought the "replacement capacitors" category might be right, but... there's a very small selection there so that seems wrong.

Thanks!
 
Aluminum Electrolytic -> Leaded (this just means 'standard 'lytic cap' and 'with leads, not surface mount or screw on'), then select the paramaters you know of the caps you are replacing (critically capacitance and diameter/lead spacing). You'll still end up with dozens of choices, from those you need to select suitable ones based on the use they'll see.

Since we know little about the specifics of the motherboard design, it's best to match these up with the existing devices. Either with direct replacements (e.g. Mouser carries the Nichicon KZG series you're replacing here), or by looking at the datasheets and looking for ESR of a similar magnitude and ripple current rating at least as good as the originals. As a general rule, any of the low-ESR high-reliability series' mentioned here so far are suitable for use in the vregs on a motherboard.
 
Ok do both diameter AND height have to be exactly the same as the one I'm replacing?? They don't have a filter only for diameter; everything is diameter x some length. But I thought the length/height is not important but only the diameter is...

Also, do all motherboard caps fall in certain diameter categories? Is it 6.3mm, 8mm, 10mm? Because one of the categories listed on Mouser is 8.13mm. I'm sure I would not be able to tell the difference with just a ruler whether it's 8mm or 8.13mm. So... can I be sure that mine is 8mm rather than 8.13mm?
 
DaRuSsIaMaN said:
Ok do both diameter AND height have to be exactly the same as the one I'm replacing??
Click to expand...
Well, the dimensions don't explicitly matter, but the caps have to fit in the same places as the old one, and if you have a bunch of capacitors all clustered together, they probably won't fit if you use larger diameter ones than the originals. But if they're spaced out enough and you have sufficient clearance, you can use larger-diameter caps, and the same goes for height.
 
really that is an older system. i wouldn't bother trying to fix, you can pick up amd quad cores + boards from frys for between $100 and $150 that will be much better in every way than what you have.
 
$100 to $150 is at least 10x as much as he would have to spend to repair it. Geeze, we already replace things far too frequently and throw out way too much junk.

Ok do both diameter AND height have to be exactly the same as the one I'm replacing?? They don't have a filter only for diameter; everything is diameter x some length. But I thought the length/height is not important but only the diameter is...
Click to expand...
What Zero said. However be careful of the lead spacing, it's important that this is the same. I've always hated Mouser's cap search filters because they lump all the dimensions and don't have a lead spacing filter either.

Also, do all motherboard caps fall in certain diameter categories? Is it 6.3mm, 8mm, 10mm?
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Diameter? Not necessarily, there are some standard ones but no reason to conform to them. Lead spacing almost certainly will follow the standard pattern.
 
Thanks a lot, guys.

So what about this lead spacing? Are there some standard categories for computers? After I applied the proper capacitance and voltage filters in DigiKey I was left with 3.50mm and 5.00mm choices for lead spacing. I measured mine with a ruler by flipping the motherboard over, and it looks to me like ~3.75mm. Can I assume that it's 3.5? Is that a standard size?

**************************

By the way, here are the caps I want to replace:



I can't figure out exactly what they are. It does say GSC on them. After a little perusal of search hits, it sounds bad. Is that a really bad cap company? Well even so, the point is I don't know what series they are and how to get any other information about them concerning their ESR and stuff.

The only things I found on DigiKey that match the capacitance/voltage rating and that are potentially acceptable replacements are the UCC KY series and the Nichicon HE. These two are listed on a sticky at badcaps.net about which caps to buy. They are listed as second and third, respectively, which means their ESR is not very low. Not knowing the ESR of these ones that I want to replace, I'm not sure if those options on DigiKey will be good enough or not.

Thoughts?

P.S. This is a different motherboard, not the one in my OP. This is asus A7V8X-LA. I got it from my friend, and I want to practice on it first.
 
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Never heard of GSC. They're probably crap, as you suspect. I really doubt they have good specs, if they even meet them. Replacing with a quality low-ESR cap should be fine.

Both HE and KY are low-ESR, just no the lowest, so either should be fine, their specs are nearly identical. If you want a lower ESR cap, Mouser has a better selection of Nichicon parts and some of the ultra low ESR series are available in this size/value.
 
DaRuSsIaMaN said:
But now I'm confused about navigating/shopping Mouser. I'm here:
http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/_/N-5g7r/

Then what? Which category do I need? I thought it's the first one, "Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors" but then there's 4 sub-categories after that; is the "Leaded" subcategory the right one? Sorry if it's a dumb question but I don't know what the technical name of these types of computer caps is. I also thought the "replacement capacitors" category might be right, but... there's a very small selection there so that seems wrong.
Click to expand...

Fractions of a mm differences in lead spacing or body diameter won't matter.

You want radial lead, 105 Celcius, aluminum. If you get too specific with any dealer's online capacitor picker, the website may exclude many suitable choices.

Do NOT get Chemicon (Nippon Chemicon, United Chemicon) KZG or KZJ series capacitors because they're known to fail prematurely. Instead get Sanyo WG or Nichicon HN or HZ, Rubycon MCZ or MBZ, or Panasonic FJ or maybe FM for those Chemicons. OTOH Chemicon KZE is OK. For most stuff, Nichicon HM is good enough (like Chemicon KZE).

Another dealer is B&D enterprises, BDent.com. They sell mostly Sanyo but also have some Nichicon and Chemicon. The only bad thing about this dealer is their polymer caps are expensive.
 
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On a similar note, this is an Asus M2N-X board (Socket AM2) I bought in 2007. The system was properly ventilated and the fans (CPU fan & 120mm rear fan) are working fine. It was little dusty inside, but nothing terrible.

Top View:
dsc00384m.jpg


Side View:
dsc00387.jpg


It started crashing a few days ago and I pulled the board out to have a look. I'm guessing a lot of the caps are bad even though only two are bulging, pretty annoying. I thought the capacitor plague ended a long time ago.
 
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caps.JPG


Failing caps on my old A7N8X-Deluxe Socket A board.

ASUS replaced it in like 2 weeks



I don't have a picture but I had a Gigabyte GA-7VAXP (similar era to your board, just a VIA KT400 chipset) and it had bad caps as well
 
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