Aluminum and copper in the same loop...

[madmat]

Which is why I asked an earlier poster; Do you own a car?

Most car owners don't know how their car works. But guess what? If you don't perform regular maintenance, it breaks, and you're SCREWED! I don't hear anybody whining and saying "Damn you Ford(Or GM, or Daimler, or Honda...) for making my cylinder heads out of aluminum and my radiator out of copper and brass!". If they do, they're silenced quickly by the resounding "RTFM!"

Actually cars with aluminum heads will have aluminum radiators. Not out of any preset plan but because the auto makers started using aluminum radiators a bit before aluminum heads became more mainstream unless of course you're talking about the odd Pinto, Vega and import from the 70's-80's.

 

[BillParrish]

Adding 2%(by volume) of a corrosion inhibitor is too complex?

I hate to say it, but probally yes as far as actually doing the math goes and accurately measuring it out. Artic Silver site shows exactly how to apply its product but still we get people that spread it like peanut butter or slath the entire top of a cpu that does not use an IHS.

probally should be presentened in a chart with proper amounts to add to 1gal 1/2 gal 1qt 1pint 1cup (and corresponding metric values) to acheive the recommended concentration, whatever that is, and some easy to understand measuing device to meter it out.

But this is contrary to my previous opinion .

I'm guessing there will be a negligible difference in the cooling capability of my system. This should take the steam out of a lot of these wind bags around here.

I doubt you will be able to measure any difference given the accuracy of any typical computer thermal monitors I know of. I would be amazed if it made 1C of difference.
Dont bother on my account.

What would be interesting is if someone had the exact same block in copper and AL and in a methodical way tested the difference (if any) in performance. Anyone ever seen that done ? Ditto rads.

 

[Arcygenical]

We have been telling people about the risks of smoking and drinking for years and it has made a difference. However, a lot of people had bad outcomes and died along the way. So what's the deal, huh? The deal is that if people do stupid shit then it's on them. Not me, not the dealer, and not the manufacturer. Who can you blame if you don't bother to read the instructions? No one but yourself. Quit trying to baby the world and the world will sort itself out.

Oh... K... Of course. But, what I've said (and your reply to it) strengthens the notion that adding aluminum is harming the generally uninformed public. But now you're saying it's their own fault for not knowing the science behind it. So, because people don't heed the warnings about smoking, they deserve the inevitable bouts of emphysema, lung cancer and heart disease? Isn't that a bit callous? Their own damn fault aside, I'd never wish anything like that on anyone. I'm all for letting the idiots die out, but I certainly don't support the health harming by-products of the Tobacco industry's success... Babying the world is different from deliberately introducing a harmful element into an industry (or our bodies) when alternatives (or abstinance) is a better possibility.

I just don't see a "pro" to Aluminum these days either. It's lighter, and easier to machine... But so is delrin, hell even lucite is easier to machine, and just as durable under most conditions. Conditions where plastics are not sufficient (like a hold-down) a softer brass can easily be employed. Aluminum looks awesome, true, and I give it full credit for that, but it's also got a lower thermal conductivity rate (some components don't *need* the cooling power of copper, but these fall under the "why the hell not" category).

You might be an enthusiast, with a fairly good level of knowledge general chemistry, watercooling and computers; but I work with individuals that know (generally) none of these things. I work with the uninformed entrant who still believes Pentium 4's are king, and that green liquid MUST mean the system's fast and that the Asus Vento is the pinnacle of design engineering. These individuals do not understand the reasons behind opposing views (and sometimes refuse to accept them, in which case they DO deserve to learn the hard way) and will continue to make mistakes. Sure, we learn from our mistakes, but we also learn from other people's mistakes. Why subject someone, whoever they are, to a mistake when the companies themselves know that there are dangers involved. Same goes for the tobacco industry, they sure as hell know smoking's bad, and in my personal opinion, they shouldn't be allowed a dime for the damage they're doing to untold numbers of individuals.

Show me an instruction booklet that describes the reason behind incorporating an anti-corrosive additive? They don't! They just say "the use of any fluid other than the one included will void your warranty," the average consumer, with no back-knowledge about the dangers of mixing metals views that on the same level as a "Caution, hot coffee is hot" label and disgards it. Responsibiltiy IS on the manufacturer to either remove this point of failure, or to educate the masses over the general idea behind the prevention of this failure. if they continue to commit this potential mistake (or take the proper precautions to prevent it) then by all means, let them learn the hard way.

Using aluminum in a loop for those outside the watercooling community has absolutely NO benefits, other than machineability and looks... It might not be hurting anything, but it sure as hell isn't helping it!

 

[Top Nurse]

A lot of you guys sound like the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

 

[Ranker]

A lot of you guys sound like the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

So that means a few years down the road, everyone we'll realize we've been right all along?

Anyway, I'll take that as a compliment. You'll have to work harder to debunk/criticize Arcygenical's well written rebuttal.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

So that means a few years down the road, everyone we'll realize we've been right all along?

And right about your 1/2" campain?

btw: how tight can you tighten a block before it breaks the motherboard? Not one, not twice, not three times, but .....?

 

[Arcygenical]

btw: how tight can you tighten a block before it breaks the motherboard? Not one, not twice, not three times, but .....?

Answer: Depends if the holddown is lucite... in which case, it'll break before the board does

*goddamn TDX*

 

[Arcygenical]

A lot of you guys sound like the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

I'm actually quite agnostic in this regard... My views don't easily align with either liberalism or conservatism... And due to the agony this has caused myself (and my friends, fans of either party) I've stopped trying to align them so definitately.

 

[Top Nurse]

And right about your 1/2" campain?

btw: how tight can you tighten a block before it breaks the motherboard? Not one, not twice, not three times, but .....?

Wow that is definitely dirty pool showing what a newbie Ranker is in water cooling.

 

[Ranker]

Wow that is definitely dirty pool showing what a newbie Ranker is in water cooling.

Oh yeah. I'm a total newbie. Pros never ever make mistakes. Gee, let me go turn in my watercooling badge right now.

Except two boards were already bad, lovely "1d" led post, (unfortunately 680i boards made by foxconn aren't exactly known for their QC) and the last board I got overzealous on the self made shim.

Anyhow, keep the personal attacks coming. It's amusing to see what the AC Goon Squad comes up with.

 

[Top Nurse]

So all you aluminum crazies won't have anything to do with aluminum in your loop right? So with your use of Laing DDC pumps do you have any corrosion problems? Since you all swear you don't I am wondering about this little tid bit I found on the Laing site concerning the wetted parts in the DDC. Now where have we heard about aluminum oxide lately?

 

[BillParrish]

Not a chemist

I am fairly certain actually what that is, is called in the lapidary trade a "synthetic ruby". I believe in this application it is used as a bearing and am fairly certain the process used to create it makes it inert for the purposes of the "discussion" here.

--or--

I am completely mistaken.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_ruby

Still tho, nice shot !

 

[Arcygenical]

Not a chemist

I am fairly certain actually what that is, is called in the lapidary trade a "synthetic ruby". I believe in this application it is used as a bearing and am fairly certain the process used to create it makes it inert for the purposes of the "discussion" here.

Still tho, nice shot !

Yes, it's the low-friction material that makes up the impeller bearing.

It's already oxidized and therefore doesn't impart the same potential as straight or anodized aluminum would.

And, it's completely isolated from the electrical mains of the case, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with it anyways. It's harder than steel, so it's not going to crack or chip, and if it does, well... it won't matter, as it's galvanic potential is already relatively null.

You can't compare an isolated piece of non-reactive metal, to the aluminum portion of a GPU/CPU waterblock which makes direct contact to the case's ground through an IHS or mounting bolt.

And I've personally killed over 4 NB chips through mounting their waterblocks, that doesn't mean I'm a noob either. I can probably say with all honesty, I've set up and planned more systems than 99% of the people responding in this thread.

 

[Top Nurse]

You guys went from saying absolutely no aluminum in your loops to now a little bit of aluminum is okay? When they hard anodize, a material called aluminum oxide is formed on the aluminum. So what your saying now is that it's okay in your loop, but not on a water block? So just how much aluminum oxide is okay in a water loop?

 

[Arcygenical]

You guys went from saying absolutely no aluminum in your loops to now a little bit of aluminum is okay? When they hard anodize, a material called aluminum oxide is formed on the aluminum. So what your saying now is that it's okay in your loop, but not on a water block? So just how much aluminum oxide is okay in a water loop?

Depends.

A coating of AL2O3 on a bare aluminum surface is one thing...

A hunk of pure AL203 is another thing.

That hunk isn't going to wear away very quickly, and even if it does, there's no galvanically active AL under it. A coating of aluminum oxide, on the other hand, can wear away with a pinpoint scratch, and cause catestrophic damage if proper conditions arn't met.

 

[Top Nurse]

Depends.

A coating of AL2O3 on a bare aluminum surface is one thing...

A hunk of pure AL203 is another thing.

That hunk isn't going to wear away very quickly, and even if it does, there's no galvanically active AL under it. A coating of aluminum oxide, on the other hand, can wear away with a pinpoint scratch, and cause catastrophic damage if proper conditions aren't met.

So if it is such a good coating for bearings (in a high wear environment) why is it all of a sudden crappola on a water block? You guys are grasping for straws here and should just let the water ooze over your heads and put yourself out of your misery.

 

[Arcygenical]

So if it is such a good coating for bearings (in a high wear environment) why is it all of a sudden crappola on a water block? You guys are grasping for straws here and should just let the water ooze over your heads and put yourself out of your misery.

No, You are the one that's grasping for straws.

I'll repeat this one last time. PURE AL2O3 has absolutely no harmfum galvanic potential!

Pure Aluminum (AL) does!

The wear of a hunk of AL2O3 does not expose any galvanically active AL, instead, it exposes MORE AL2O3. The wear of an andoized piece of aluminum exposes Galvanically reactive metal.

The bearing inside the pump is a chunk of pure anodized aluminum, with no other aluminum under it. Wearing it away does nothing but reduce the service length of the pump.

 

[BillParrish]

You guys went from saying absolutely no aluminum in your loops to now a little bit of aluminum is okay? When they hard anodize, a material called aluminum oxide is formed on the aluminum. So what your saying now is that it's okay in your loop, but not on a water block? So just how much aluminum oxide is okay in a water loop?

A diamond is 100% Carbon. Changes in the lattice structure of the molecular alignment make a 100% Carbon diamond and a 100% Carbon lump of charcoal two completely different things but both are 100% Carbon. Just try roasting a Hot Dog over a hot bed of diamonds, its a pure T bitch to start the fire.

Did NO one pay attention in HS chemistry ? Hell I made a D in chem 101 and I get this.

Just like the carbon example above alumum oxide can exist in several forms. In the pump it is a synthetic ruby, if you chip it you have a chip of ruby. In plating if a piece of it chips you have an inert chip of anodization (disregarding what is underneath which take us back to "Go".)

(this assumes solvents capable of dissolving the materials are not present. A safe bet in a watercooling loop)

 

[Arcygenical]

Give it up , a diamond is 100% carbon Changes in the lattice structure of the moluclar alignment make a 100% carbon diamond and a 100% carbon charcoal make them two completely different things 100% carbon. Just try roasting a Hot Dog over a hot fire of diamonds.

Mmmmm 796c BBQ. Plasmadog?

 

[Top Nurse]

Anyhow, keep the personal attacks coming. It's amusing to see what the AC Goon Squad comes up with.

Please note that I am not intending to implicate any of our [H]ardForum regulars here in this cult. Most of our regular members here have their own views and are quite articulate in presenting their views and we appreciate that. What we don't appreciate are cultists that try and brow beat others and taking others out of context in an effort to spread their misguided views of the world.

Well now we have Ranker and his buddies from Xtreme Systems flying their true colors. So what is the definition of a cult? I used the Wikipedia to look up some of the various definitions. Some of the more notable definitions are that these kinds of groups revel in their own definition of what is right, have a place for them to meet and carry on with their definition of the way they see the world turning, they glorify certain members that keep the faith, and they also tend to restrict information they deem as oppositional to their views.

As far as some of the cult leaders you can see who they are by checking out this thread, just scroll down to post #2 for particulars. You'll see that Ranker is prominently listed there as an Anti-Aqua Computer Activist for the sole reason that AC uses aluminum in some of their products.

Some of the things Ranker has come off with regarding aluminum use and other water cooling concepts have left me wondering where he could of got such crazy information. With the [H]ardForum being down lately I had the opportunity to visit the Xtreme Systems Water Cooling Forum. While I was there I perused their FAQ's and found where he has been getting some of his erroneous information.

I created a thread called "What's up with the Aquaduct" there that was a simple exploration of this outstanding Aqua Computer external water cooling product. The Anti-Aluminum Forces/Cult (hereinafter known as the AAC) totally destroyed that thread without any mod so much as making a comment to keep down the AAC flames.

Later on another thread was created that showed the real world use of bare aluminum (no anodizing of any type) in a water cooling circuit for several years. This thread was also trashed by the AAC again without any mod intervening. The mod did intervene however after some more astute members of XS began posting their favorable real world use of aluminum and copper in their loops by locking the thread.

Are you starting to see a pattern here by the AAC? I did too and posted Aluminum Censoring: An open letter to Xtreme Systems in their water cooling forum. This thread got locked down even faster (only a few minutes after Ranker asked the mods to do so). Personally I didn't care about the thread in question that got locked, but I was deeply disturbed by the mods belief that censorship "just makes good sense."

I'm not looking to start any inter-forum rivalries here as Xtreme Systems does have some other great forums, but we need to stay ever vigilant of the AAC as they try to thwart and censor information that is needed to make an informed decision about using aluminum in a water cooling circuit.

P.S. Don't be surprised if they delete some of these links once they realize they have been exposed.

 

[Erasmus354]

What we don't appreciate are cultists that try and brow beat others and taking others out of context in an effort to spread their misguided views of the world.

You mean people taking things out of context like someone in post 146 of this very thread?

Something about people in glass houses comes to mind...

 

[Ranker]

While [H] was down, Top Nurse, R1ckCa1n, and fellow AC cultists begin to cause a ruckus on XS boards with their propaganda: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148934

It's basically the same stuff we see here: Someone initiates a topic, TN/R1ckca1n begin flaming and flame baiting, ruins whatever civilized conversation was being carried out in the name of the AC religion.

The number of thread locks has more than shot up 5 times while [H] was down and Top Nurse/R1ckCa1n graced the boards. One can only hope someone at [H] makes someone like Arcygenical or Erasmus a moderator so they can clean up whatever antics transpire on here.

On top of that, she gives the usual hard sell to everyone in the forum about AC products to the point that people get so annoyed they try to preempt her sales pitch: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149199.

Face it Top Nurse, members of both boards find you not only annoying but harmful to either community.


PS TN. I'm anti anything that puts out sub par products, unethically spreads misinformation about their products (See Koolance inserting foot in mouth: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148286), etc.. In essence, I'm anti Koolance, AC, Thermaltake, Zalman when it comes to watercooling components.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

While [H] was down, Top Nurse, R1ckCa1n, and fellow AC cultists begin to cause a ruckus on XS boards with their propaganda: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148934

Are you freaking on crack? Who exactly started that thread? Oh yeah, neither of us. Clearly it was started because that forum has a tendancy to catch on fire.

Here is what one of the top members of the FORUM, not just the liquid cooling forum says about you guys

Exactly.

Sometimes the elite-ism and closed minded opinions expressed in the liquid cooling forums is, at times, pretty disappointing.

There is room in the market for many different types of water cooling solutions. I've run every type of water cooling set up known to man for the last 5 years, not to mention countless vapor change systems, and there is NEVER a single best solution for all situations. On one machine I run a nice custom kit, while the machine sitting next to it has an exos II on it. The third machine runs swiftech gear. Each set up is being used for a reason.

Seems to me that Victor (a VERY repsected XS member) has shared with us some nice cooling results with a Koolance kit. Let's all just deal with it. Like Fugger said, it looks like a decent kit. I'm sure there are applications where the kit makes a good choice.

Some folks need to get over themselves. Seeing Victor be attacked over this thread is nonsense.

It's basically the same stuff we see here: Someone initiates a topic, TN/R1ckca1n begin flaming and flame baiting, ruins whatever civilized conversation was being carried out in the name of the AC religion.

Just like the "same old configuration" threads at XS....... Funny thing is some of the most respected members have already admitted to wanting to try smaller tubing because of Cathar's post.

BTW: why do you think Cathar made that post?

The number of thread locks has more than shot up 5 times while [H] was down and Top Nurse/R1ckCa1n graced the boards. One can only hope someone at [H] makes someone like Arcygenical or Erasmus a moderator so they can clean up whatever antics transpire on here.

And you have been warned by members of XS members about your obsession with TN just as many times there.......

Face it Top Nurse, members of both boards find you not only annoying but harmful to either community.

It only takes five minutes of searching on XS to figure you out. Everything you have is based on a "recommendation" instead of actually trying things out (can you say two RD-30's bought and not used?). 95 percent of your posts are either 1) kissing someones ass 2) talking out your ass 3) or quoting Cathar/Marci. It is clear you can't make your own data and must rely on others to do the thinking for you. Wheather it is you not being able to mount a waterblock without breaking three or four motherboards or simply not knowing how to make a loop, it is clear what you really are. My suggestion is to obtain some real data, meaning actually trying something, and then see how your posting habits change. Maybe then you can bring something to the community other than quotes of others data?

PS TN. I'm anti anything that puts out sub par products, unethically spreads misinformation about their products (See Koolance inserting foot in mouth: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148286), etc.. In essence, I'm anti Koolance, AC, Thermaltake, Zalman when it comes to watercooling components.

Sad that you can't see past the haze because this looks very sub par......

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149108

 

[Top Nurse]

While [H] was down, Top Nurse, R1ckCa1n, and fellow AC cultists begin to cause a ruckus on XS boards with their propaganda

You are really stretching here if you think I had anything to do with that thread being created. If you read the first sentence you will see that the guy (a very respected modder and water cooler from the UK) was taking pity on me because the Anti-Aluminum Cult (AAC) had trashed my What's up with the Aquaduct thread and had "...spoilt enough without my contribution so it gets its own thread." BTW, are you calling Coolmeister an AC Cultist? Why don't you go back there and tell him that to his face where he has a chance to defend himself. Isn't it interesting how the AAC thinks everyone is also a cult who opposes their views? The Wikipedia also said that was a commonality about cults.

It's basically the same stuff we see here: Someone initiates a topic, TN/R1ckca1n begin flaming and flame baiting, ruins whatever civilized conversation was being carried out in the name of the AC religion.

AC Religion is it now? If you had bothered to even read the AC thread and it's predecessors you would see that we praise where deserved and get the hickory stick out when needed.

The number of thread locks has more than shot up 5 times while [H] was down and Top Nurse/R1ckCa1n graced the boards.

Yes they have been quite expeditious about closing down pro aluminum threads. So what else is new? Cults often try to stop the spread of information. Also I have to mention that lying isn't very becoming for you, but you AAC types just gotta do what you gotta do to spread misinformation don't ya? 5 times? The only threads locked there in the time frame you specified was the two mentioned in my post and the other one got locked down because of more AAC nonsense.

On top of that, she gives the usual hard sell to everyone in the forum about AC products.

The hard sell? I usually just ask what their intents and desires are in water cooling and move on from there. Your the one who goes right for the throat and recommends a cooling solution that rarely varies and then flaming anyone else preemptively that might suggest another solution.

Face it Top Nurse, members of both boards find you not only annoying but harmful to either community.

Who cares? The voice of change and reason is quite often vilified by the masses.

I'm anti anything that puts out sub par products, unethically spreads misinformation about their products. In essence, I'm anti Koolance, AC, Thermaltake, Zalman when it comes to watercooling components.

Didn't you forget about the other evil aluminum manufacturers like Alphacool, Innovatek, and Watercool? So who do we have left but the ones the AAC recommends? Dude you need to get reprogrammed so you don't keep spouting all this AAC trash your cult is espousing.

Reference:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

HERBERT SPENCER

 

[ikellensbro]

I would post more often, but I really don't care that much any more. I honestly long for the 2.4c/1700+ Thunderbird/ 2500+ Barton days, when people were coming up with new discoveries, doing stuff themselves, and trying to be original while remembering to use their brains. Water has been effectively dead since a little after the G5 came out (more the date, not because of the G5). When there's not much left to do but discuss existing products, then pissing matches are expected.

TN/R1ck and Ranker: You guys (and gal) don't the other one(s). Fine, don't waste bandwidth and time out of people's lives to express your passionate hatred of each other and their ideas. You can have an opinion (as long as it doesn't "advocate" "drugs" at school ), just don't make yourselves sound like console fanboys. Examples:

1. Cathar releases new information showing that in a loop with a DDC or simlar power pump, push fits will leak.
Bad response from Ranker: 'And AC keeps hurting their customers by using these in theri products. Not to mention a certain someone <insert TN/R1ck snippet here> who advocates them. Sigh, trying again to hurt the water cooling community.'
Acceptable: 'Well, push fits may have worked for low flow loops, but in higher performance, high flow loops, barbs are still the best bet. I prefer barbs anyway, but that's just my personal taste.'

2. A 120.3 Aquaduct is able to perform as well as a PA120.3 + DDC with the same blocks.
Bad TN/R1ck response: 'AC has been doubted and put down by all of you, so now what? Just going to stick your thumbs up your asses while you stick your heads in the sand like stubborn ostriches who don't want to face the facts?'
Good TN/R1ck response: 'I never doubted the Aquaduct's ability, but thanks for providing solid testing data. While a DDC + PA120.3 loop may be less expensive, I think the Aquaduct's looks, integrated Aquero, and easy external installation make up for the added cost.'

If you couldn't tell, I was exaggerating there. Those hypothertical scenarios may or may not be proved to be true (if even tested), but the bad responses are what the majority of the posts by the three of you sound like to the rest of us. You can have any opinion you like, right or wrong, just don't force it on anyone. When someone wants to make a $200 loop, they usually mean they have $200 to spend, so no Thermochills/Aquastreams.

To put in my personal requests for the 3 of you:

TN: When someone states most of their wishes and requests for a loop, and you "just ask what their intents and desires are in water cooling and move on from there," yes, it does sound like you're trying to preach AC a bit. And aluminum - yes, with a corrosion inhibitor, it's fine. There's too many stupid people, and aluminum doesn't perform as well as copper, so most people should use copper for cooling, and delrin/etc. when copper is too heavy.

Ranker: Yes, you learned everything you know from XS. If you want to really learn the history and innovation of water cooling, read damn near every water article on Overclockers.com. There's plenty of familiar writers and great examples of people being innovative and creative. Don't regurgitate the same thing every time, remember that you can (gasp) get a radiator for $30, $20, $10, or even less with some work (and it'll perform pretty close to a PA, especially if you upgrade other components with the money you save). You don't like AC, we get it. Try to be known more for helping out newbies than defending high flow and copper every chance you get.

R1ck: Yes, you've had a lot of experience with water cooling, including the chance to try out a lot of parts. Not everyone has as much time and money as you do, so don't make yourself sound like a prick. Ranker had some troubles with his first loop(s), because he jumped in water cooling off the high board, but we all have to start somewhere. Saying he broke mobos with a NB block doesn't matter as long as he's not performing surgery on me. Yes, AC and low flow can cool well. As well as higher flow with superior blocks and radiators? No - maybe a lot, maybe a little, but when two things coolers are effectively the same, the one that cools is giving a better value.

All of you: Congratulations, thanks to the hundreds of useless posts among the 3 of you, there are plenty of opportunities to take cheap shots at each other. Stay on topic, or keep it to PMs. And we could care less if you did something stupid on another forum, just show it if it's that vital to thread. We don't need to keep track of 13 past feuds and threads, just tell us what they said and keep the fluff to a minimum if it's useful and pertains to the actual point.

[sidenotes]
1. In a study of 80,000 different ostriches over more than 100 years, none ever stuck their heads beneath the sand.
2. If an Aquaduct performed very close to a DDC/D5 + 120.3 loop, a logical and simple explanation is that the Aquaduct is external, so it has cooler ambient air to cool with, compared to the (likely internal) 120.3. AC isn't the first to benefit from this; Koolance and Corsair's products owe a lot, if not most of their competetitiveness to their external advantage.
[/sidenotes]

 

[Ranker]

Just like the "same old configuration" threads at XS....... Funny thing is some of the most respected members have already admitted to wanting to try smaller tubing because of Cathar's post.

Not sure what point you're trying to prove other than him specifically stating that 3/8" is ideal with minimal, but still evident gains past that. I've tried it as well and rigged up one of my UFO's with a 3/8" line for the non essential components where performance doesn't matter.

And you have been warned by members of XS members about your obsession with TN just as many times there.......

Sure, the members that came over from [H]? The majority of XS, including the mods support my view on the matter and find you and TN to be a pest.

It only takes five minutes of searching on XS to figure you out. Everything you have is based on a "recommendation" instead of actually trying things out (can you say two RD-30's bought and not used?). 95 percent of your posts are either 1) kissing someones ass 2) talking out your ass 3) or quoting Cathar/Marci. It is clear you can't make your own data and must rely on others to do the thinking for you. Wheather it is you not being able to mount a waterblock without breaking three or four motherboards or simply not knowing how to make a loop, it is clear what you really are. My suggestion is to obtain some real data, meaning actually trying something, and then see how your posting habits change. Maybe then you can bring something to the community other than quotes of others data?

You're funny. So, one should purchase things blindly to see for oneself? There are things that should be researched ahead of time and there are things one can experiment with. I've purchased two RD-30's and use 1 of them and gifted the other one to a friend. Is that such a crime? You seem to have an obsession with RD-30's as it seems. I've purchased things on posted results and purchased stuff on my own to experiment. I was the first on XS to have purchased the D-Tek Fuzion GPU blocks. I've owned/purchased 4 different sets of GPU blocks within the past 3 months just to satisfy my curiosity. As much as I'd like to throw money around on my hobby, I prefer not to waste it on sub par products. Mind you, I was also once the "newbie" and owned a Koolance Exos, a Zalman Reserator 1, a TT Bigwater, and even a Kingwin kit (try searching for those these days). People learn from their mistakes... at least the smart ones do. You'll continue to champion companies as long as they support your agenda rather than objective reasons.

Arcygenical has admitted to killing 4 NB chips due to over tightening and he's probably had more experience than either you or TN in watercooling. I suppose this makes his recommendations and expertise null and void? Funny thing is that I didn't even kill the boards as I had first thought and instead received defective boards as verified by the EVGA techs upon RMA'ing them. Feel free to do a search on "1d" post errors. It's generally easier to trust someone who's willing to admit mistakes and ask for help than to trust people like you and TN who claim to know all and to have never made any sort of mistakes. Should we all bow down now?

AC Religion is it now? If you had bothered to even read the AC thread and it's predecessors you would see that we praise where deserved and get the hickory stick out when needed.

People definitely see it that way when every thread is spammed about how awesome AC is and how AC can do no harm. It's gotten to the point where members have preempt your sales pitches with stuff like: "please recommend me something, and no Top Nurse, I don't want AC". Kinda funny considering you got active there recently with [H] being down and you've already garnered a reputation as an AC sales person and a flame baiter.

Yes they have been quite expeditious about closing down pro aluminum threads. So what else is new? Cults often try to stop the spread of information. Also I have to mention that lying isn't very becoming for you, but you AAC types just gotta do what you gotta do to spread misinformation don't ya? 5 times? The only threads locked there in the time frame you specified was the two mentioned in my post and the other one got locked down because of more AAC nonsense.

The mods understand that I contribute regularly to the boards and have the best interests of the forums and the community in mind. I have no allegiances to any company and rather have them compete against one another to put the best product out. I suggest you search through the threads regarding the GTX and the Stealth and see how I was one of the antagonists that called for Gabe to answer himself to the community. You may think otherwise, but the community sees you as recommending Aqua Computers at every step regardless of the situation. AC has its place in the community, but until it nails the performance crown or the price/performance crown, many will find it obnoxious when people recommend it left and right without justification.

Who cares? The voice of change and reason is quite often vilified by the masses.

So now you think you're 2nd coming of Christ, or better yet Joan of Arc? The delusion is starting to set in..

 

[Ranker]

Ranker: Yes, you learned everything you know from XS. If you want to really learn the history and innovation of water cooling, read damn near every water article on Overclockers.com. There's plenty of familiar writers and great examples of people being innovative and creative. Don't regurgitate the same thing every time, remember that you can (gasp) get a radiator for $30, $20, $10, or even less with some work (and it'll perform pretty close to a PA, especially if you upgrade other components with the money you save). You don't like AC, we get it. Try to be known more for helping out newbies than defending high flow and copper every chance you get.

I'm a member and a participant of those boards as well. There's a lot of info on there, but it's degenerated into ego/math contests for the past year and I haven't enjoyed it as much as I used it. I decided to rejoin XS in the wake of flame wars that started on Overclockers. However, I do agree it's a great resource and I learned much from it over the years.

I don't recommend Thermochill radiators all the time. If you scan my posts on other boards, you'll see I often recommend Swiftech/Cooling Works radiators as they're the best for price/performance without the noise levels of heatercores/high RPM setups.

The only reason I defend high-flow/copper setups is due to the overbearing and almost militant behavior of Top Nurse/R1ckCa1n. Somewhere along the line, I got dragged into this mess by trying to offer balance with high flow suggestions rather then letting this forum get drowned out by Top Nurse's "alu is good, low flow is king, AC or die" mantra.

Anyhow, I appreciate your commends and will take your suggestions to heart. I find you, Erasmus, and Arcygenical as the few members that have the best interests of this forum in mind.

 

[Top Nurse]

Everything I need to say was said right on my Aluminum Censoring post. Live with it...

 

[Top Nurse]

[sidenotes]
1. In a study of 80,000 different ostriches over more than 100 years, none ever stuck their heads beneath the sand.
2. If an Aquaduct performed very close to a DDC/D5 + 120.3 loop, a logical and simple explanation is that the Aquaduct is external, so it has cooler ambient air to cool with, compared to the (likely internal) 120.3. AC isn't the first to benefit from this; Koolance and Corsair's products owe a lot, if not most of their competetitiveness to their external advantage.
[/sidenotes]

Item 1: I know this because I spent a long time looking for a pic recently. It only happened in cartoons and one heavily orchestrated movie. However, it does convey a nice picture in most peoples minds.

Item 2: I don't seem to recall anyone ever saying that because there aren't a lot of them around. I took mine apart to do some modding, R1ckCa1n's is also in parts at the moment, and theseeker is off on some foreign job and doesn't seem reachable right now. The only comment around is R1ckCa1n's and both loops weren't even in a computer case so they both benefitted from cooler air.

 

[ikellensbro]

Item 2: I don't seem to recall anyone ever saying that because there aren't a lot of them around. I took mine apart to do some modding, R1ckCa1n's is also in parts at the moment, and theseeker is off on some foreign job and doesn't seem reachable right now. The only comment around is R1ckCa1n's and both loops weren't even in a computer case so they both benefitted from cooler air.

Oh, I know, I was just giving an explanation if a performance comparison was made. Hell, my heater core sits on top of my case, so it's technically "cheating" or using the same advantage as Aquaducts, Exos, Nautilus, etc.

[/ot]

 

[Cathar]

I have my radiator mounted in a custom-built radiator box, and it draws in cool air-flow from the floor. Typically this means 2-3C cooler air into the radiator than with the radiator at a more typical 4-5' height, as in/on a PC on a desk.

The only issue is dust build-up on the radiator intake, but I just vacuum it every 2 months or so. Can get quite a thick visible buildup of dust on the radiator before water temps starts to be affected by even 0.1C, so I employ a policy of whenever it looks bad, vacuum it, with no real need to be pedantic about it.

As for both camps liking to pull my name into their online fights. I like to explore what the implications are of design decisions, and then try to explain it where possible, so people can make their own choices on what trade-offs they're prepared to accept, rather than continue on fighting without information. I guess that it's fair enough that people will still manage to find a way to fight over what is in a nutshell the argument of: "What trade-offs should I accept?". I try to keep out of it as much as possible, 'cos each to their own I say.

I personally don't trust aluminium, but I also understand that it is possible to use corrosion inhibitors and with regular maintenance, it's a bit like asthma. Sure, it can be really bad if it's not managed properly, but overall it can be kept at a level where it's not a major issue. If people want to stand by their use of aluminium, and are happy to accept the management overhead, then they're free to do so. I personally don't recommend it (or the use of acrylic/polycarbonate for that matter), and I don't feel that it's worth the bother, the risk, or even the performance trade-off, but that's my choice. I'll say that if I'm asked (i.e. Ranker quoting my PM reply to him after he asked me vi PM), but I'm not going to ram it down anyone's throat.

Meh. If anyone wants me, I'll just be over here on this patch of neutral ground. I won't force my beliefs on you, if you don't force yours on me. I'll only arc up if what people are saying is blatantly untrue and misinformed.

Other than that, don't let me get in the way of a good brawl.

 

[grinchy]

I have my radiator mounted in a custom-built radiator box, and it draws in cool air-flow from the floor. Typically this means 2-3C cooler air into the radiator than with the radiator at a more typical 4-5' height, as in/on a PC on a desk.

The only issue is dust build-up on the radiator intake, but I just vacuum it every 2 months or so. Can get quite a thick visible buildup of dust on the radiator before water temps starts to be affected by even 0.1C, so I employ a policy of whenever it looks bad, vacuum it, with no real need to be pedantic about it.

As for both camps liking to pull my name into their online fights. I like to explore what the implications are of design decisions, and then try to explain it where possible, so people can make their own choices on what trade-offs they're prepared to accept, rather than continue on fighting without information. I guess that it's fair enough that people will still manage to find a way to fight over what is in a nutshell the argument of: "What trade-offs should I accept?". I try to keep out of it as much as possible, 'cos each to their own I say.

I personally don't trust aluminium, but I also understand that it is possible to use corrosion inhibitors and with regular maintenance, it's a bit like asthma. Sure, it can be really bad if it's not managed properly, but overall it can be kept at a level where it's not a major issue. If people want to stand by their use of aluminium, and are happy to accept the management overhead, then they're free to do so. I personally don't recommend it (or the use of acrylic/polycarbonate for that matter), and I don't feel that it's worth the bother, the risk, or even the performance trade-off, but that's my choice. I'll say that if I'm asked (i.e. Ranker quoting my PM reply to him after he asked me vi PM), but I'm not going to ram it down anyone's throat.

Meh. If anyone wants me, I'll just be over here on this patch of neutral ground. I won't force my beliefs on you, if you don't force yours on me. I'll only arc up if what people are saying is blatantly untrue and misinformed.

Other than that, don't let me get in the way of a good brawl.

spoken like a true gentleman!

 

[Buntz]

I will like to know what is the performance gain copper has over aluminum. Is it 1degree, 2 degrees, 5 degrees, 10 degrees cooler if you run copper. Right now I am running a Koolance Exos 2 external water cooling system[aluminum rad] and a Danger Den RBX A64 copper water cooling block. I have been running this system for 6 months and have no signs of corrosion yet. Right now I am in a second story Apt. bedroom with no AC in N.J.. The temps outside is 92 degrees with about 50% humidity,I have a fan running in the window that it. IT HOT! My computer is running 40 to 42 degrees at idle/49 degrees with Folding @ home running and surfing the web. Yesterday I run Orthos for 30 hours it got up to 85 degrees outside during the day time , but the computer stayed at 51 to 52 degrees. I am running the a AMD X2 4400 @ 2736 MHz at 1.5 volts

 

[R1ckCa1n]

The only reason I defend high-flow/copper setups is due to the overbearing and almost militant behavior of Top Nurse/R1ckCa1n. Somewhere along the line, I got dragged into this mess by trying to offer balance with high flow suggestions rather then letting this forum get drowned out by Top Nurse's "alu is good, low flow is king, AC or die" mantra.

Funny thing is I'm not running one peice of AC hardware right now yet you constantly make it sound like it is all I do. Watercooling is a hobby and part of my nature is to understand how things work. Why else would I mix an Aquaduct with a Fuzion or better yet buy a Storm G4 from Cathar and apply 6mm plug n cool connectors on it? Funny part is the block performed very well even with small tubing and a quality pump. Purely to understand how well it will work.

Ultimately there is no canned solution for most users and to tell them the same exact parts list just doesn't cut it in my books. Thus is the reason I will continue mix all different manufactures products to see what does work and what won't. Hell check out Victor at XS out overclocking 90 percent of that forum with Koolance equipment.

Bottom line is don't constantly drag me into your personal agenda. I'll make you a deal, I won't either.

 

[BillParrish]

I will like to know what is the performance gain copper has over aluminum. Is it 1degree, 2 degrees, 5 degrees, 10 degrees cooler if you run copper. Right now I am running a Koolance Exos 2 external water cooling system[aluminum rad] and a Danger Den RBX A64 copper water cooling block. I have been running this system for 6 months and have no signs of corrosion yet. Right now I am in a second story Apt. bedroom with no AC in N.J.. The temps outside is 92 degrees with about 50% humidity,I have a fan running in the window that it. IT HOT! My computer is running 40 to 42 degrees at idle/49 degrees with Folding @ home running and surfing the web. Yesterday I run Orthos for 30 hours it got up to 85 degrees outside during the day time , but the computer stayed at 51 to 52 degrees. I am running the a AMD X2 4400 @ 2736 MHz at 1.5 volts

No one can tell you that, it will depend on the quality of construction, size, airflow etc etc. If you had a high quality copper and high quality alum rad with the same physical dimensions and mounting (shroud, fan clearance etc.) and the same fans there would probally not be more than a 3C difference if even that.

Considering your ambient conditions, those are pretty decent temps !

Frankly I would suggest a small window air conditioner installed tightly and good dark curtains or dark shade to keep the sun out. I have seen people even glue styrofoam to the crappy pull out panels that make the AC fit in the window and duct tape does wonders for cracks air might get in. Might as well make yourself comfortable and the machine too.

 

[Cathar]

Hell check out Victor at XS out overclocking 90 percent of that forum with Koolance equipment.

Yeah. Check out Victor's "reviewer's special" CPU in a process stepping of which very few people currently have access to.

 

[Top Nurse]

Yeah. Check out Victor's "reviewer's special" CPU in a process stepping of which very few people currently have access to.

So what? How does that take away from the OC or the cooling ability? There is always someone who get first crack at anything. If he would have been using Swiftech equipment then I think there would have been considerably less controversy...

 

[Cathar]

So what? How does that take away from the OC or the cooling ability? There is always someone who get first crack at anything. If he would have been using Swiftech equipment then I think there would have been considerably less controversy...

Uh, if I have a new CPU stepping that no one else has access to, that out-overclocks CPU's of an earlier stepping type by 500MHz or so, then I ask you: "Can we state that it is the cooling and not the CPU that's responsible for the resultant overclock?"

If someone did that on Swiftech gear, everyone would be saying "Nice CPU!". It becomes controversial when some like to claim "Nice cooling! It's not the CPU".

 

[n00btard]

Didn't you forget about the other evil aluminum manufacturers like Alphacool, Innovatek, and Watercool?

Watercool uses alu!? I thought their products were only Stainless Steel and Copper(except for the fins in their HTF3 rads)!

 

[R1ckCa1n]

If someone did that on Swiftech gear, everyone would be saying "Nice CPU!". It becomes controversial when some like to claim "Nice cooling! It's not the CPU".

No, everyone would be pounding their chest how great Swiftech product is and without this 1/2" high flow system it wouldn't be possible....... That is what is funny about this conversation (Victors overclock).