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All New Homes In Palo Alto Must Have Electric Vehicle Chargers

jwcalla said:
I had to laugh at the part in the article where they bragged about being carbon neutral. Electricity generation is not exactly a big ball of cleanliness.
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So wait, are you trying to say that hydro and nuclear power are bad for the environment?


I'm all for electric cars but the sad truth is that the manufacturing and maintenance of electric cars presents a pretty hefty carbon footprint. But it's a start.
 
It's private property and the property owner has the right to decide what features do and don't go into that property. That is the problem with the requirement.

Also, when will idiot liberals learn that electric vehicles = trading gas (cleaner) for coal (dirtier)? And when President Urkel is done with his war on coal, electricity will be so expensive that no one will be able to afford to charge an electric car.
 
potency said:
So wait, are you trying to say that hydro and nuclear power are bad for the environment?
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Combined they produce roughly 25% of our electricity. Coal on its own is double that. So, yes, generated electricity is quite carbon-producing.
 
damicatz said:
It's private property and the property owner has the right to decide what features do and don't go into that property. That is the problem with the requirement.
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Well, unless, of course, these features violate local fire/electric/plumbing/structural/etc codes. ;)
 
Stiletto said:
Combined they produce roughly 25% of our electricity. Coal on its own is double that. So, yes, generated electricity is quite carbon-producing.
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Of course, whose fault is that? We could have replaced all the coal plants with nuclear by now if not for all the "NIMBY" folks....
 
farscapesg1 said:
Of course, whose fault is that? We could have replaced all the coal plants with nuclear by now if not for all the "NIMBY" folks....
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But...Chernobyl! And...Fukushima! IT COULD HAPPEN!

I could mention Three Mile Island and other American-based nuclear plant incidents, but...that would be kind of silly since it would show how our safety systems succeeded and so further nuclear plants would probably be a wonderful idea.
 
rflcptr said:
Well, unless, of course, these features violate local fire/electric/plumbing/structural/etc codes. ;)
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Pieces of paper do not supersede natural rights. Unless they are violating the property rights of their neighbors, they have the right to do as they please.

Frankly, I wish the People's Republic of California would just sink into the ocean and take Feinswine and Peloski with it.
 
damicatz said:
Pieces of paper do not supersede natural rights. Unless they are violating the property rights of their neighbors, they have the right to do as they please.
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lol

Properly implemented and enforced building codes have a way of minimizing direct and collateral damage from natural disasters.
 
rflcptr said:
lol

Properly implemented and enforced building codes have a way of minimizing direct and collateral damage from natural disasters.
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How does requiring houses to to implement electric vehicle chargers help to protect from natural disasters? The extra high voltage wiring is a fire risk and it increases the output of coal and greenhouse gases compared to gasoline cars.
 
SonDa5 said:
Nice feature for new homes. Now we just need more electric powered cars and mandatory photovoltaic systems on new homes would be a step in the right direction as well.
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Photovoltaic systems?

Sure, lets increase the price of a home by $30,000+, when too many people are already priced out of the market. By the time you add they $30K to your 30 year mortgage, your never break even.
 
Stiletto said:
Honestly, I'm just shocked by how few electric vehicles there actually are in the US. I thought they were in the millions by now. Living in Madison...another insulating town.
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For a large sector of the country, Electric vehicles are impractical for one reason or another.

Most EV's have very short ranges compared to IC vehicles, and comparing the time it takes to recharge vs refueling, most people don't want to be bothered.

Then there is the "Battery Tax", Battery packs have a fairly short life cycle, and a very expensive replacement cost, buying a used EV is a suckers bet unless the battery has just been replaced.

Companies like Tesla have shown both the awesomeness and the awfulness of EV's all rolled into one package. eventually EV's will be great, not so much for now.
 
Stiletto said:
Combined they produce roughly 25% of our electricity. Coal on its own is double that. So, yes, generated electricity is quite carbon-producing.
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I'd be a bit surprised if your local power company doesn't offer 'clean' energy options.

Ours actually has a couple of different tiers, one option being entire "renewable" sources (which can include a wide range of options, from wind to biomass to hydro), and a second option supporting new wind production directly, although with a more conventional mix of power sources (nominally - you pay per unit of wind power $2.50 per "unit", which each "unit" representing 200 kWh, so you could look up what your actually monthly power usage is and buy sufficient units of wind power to generate that much power fully via wind).

Those options have existed for a LONG time in Oregon, so I've been long able to give a big ol' "F U" to coal. Disgusting, toxic stuff. Lot of family in W Va, PA, and a few other spots in the Appalachians - I've had plenty of fairly close experience with it. It's just awful, awful crap. Monstrously destructive mining processes, incredibly filthy in use, and then you've got all those millions of tons of toxic fly ash you need to store afterwards.
 
dderidex said:
I'd be a bit surprised if your local power company doesn't offer 'clean' energy options.
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I was talking about actual usage. But yes, my power company does offer that, and I don't feel like paying more when my electric bill is already gutting me.
 
I would much rather the government protect the commons and leave people's private property out of legislation. Let market demands control whether or not a developer thinks it's in his best interest to put EV chargers in homes.

Now, if the government wants to influence the market (which they do already), then they should pass tighter legislation on emissions, or even state that all vehicles have to be zero emissions. This way they protect our common resource, the roads and air, and essentially say that all cars have to be electric or find a way to clean their own emissions before the exhaust leaves the car.

Why do people accept the government telling them what they can do with their private property? It's ridiculous.
 
I like the idea, I also like the idea of electric cars. I HATE that it is required by the government, enough big brother all ready
 
Stiletto said:
Combined they produce roughly 25% of our electricity. Coal on its own is double that. So, yes, generated electricity is quite carbon-producing.
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On top of that though, what I was trying to humorously say is that we still have no idea what to do with spent uranium. We will be shutting down San Onofre here in So Cal pretty soon, and as far as I know all the uranium will just sit right next to the decommissioned reactors indefinitely. Which is a pretty ill-conceived solution to say the least. And hydro power often negatively impacts local ecosystems.

But given the choice, I'll take electric cars over gas just for the fact that they may hopefully reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.
 
damicatz said:
Pieces of paper do not supersede natural rights.
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What natural rights do you think that you have regarding property?

This whole thing, isn't about property rights, this is about making a statement that all new buildings in "this" city shall be made with these accommodations. There are no owners of a house yet that does not exist. Feel that strongly about it, remove that circuit breaker the minute your close escrow and move in.
 
nutzo said:
Photovoltaic systems?

Sure, lets increase the price of a home by $30,000+, when too many people are already priced out of the market. By the time you add they $30K to your 30 year mortgage, your never break even.
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With population increasing the world has to learn to make the most of the energy on earth and photovoltaic systems are a step in the right direction.
 
potency said:
So wait, are you trying to say that hydro and nuclear power are bad for the environment?
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Nuclear power, definitely. Especially when there's an accident.

Frankly we should be preferring gasoline for vehicles from what is available right now because it is the best source of energy.
 
farscapesg1 said:
I don't really see a problem with it. Just part of building a house there. I view it as being equal to neighborhood restrictions (keeping the yard mowed for example, which if you hire someone to do it will cost you a lot more in the long run than even retrofitting an older house). Or I guess more like my neighborhood requirement of maintaining 2 trees in the front yard (yeah, sounds really stupid doesn't it). If one of them dies... according to the deed restrictions you are responsible for removing it AND replacing it with a new tree. All just part of buying a house here. If you don't like it, there are plenty other areas to buy homes and live...
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Ah yes...the HOA nazis. Even worse than local government most times.

This is my first covenant bound neighborhood and it will be my last. I understand it's goal to keep standards high, but the detail they get into and the people running it are unreal. Seems to be those who no longer have power and are trying to regain it in some way (retirees) or those whose only lives they could control are gone (empty nest housewives).

I attended one HOA meeting and swore I'd never attend another after it devolved into a shouted argument over fencing heights.:rolleyes:
 
mandating that every new house be wired to accommodate charging stations
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So, require that new houses have the wiring/plug for a charging station put in at time of construction.

I'm just going to say this: If I was building a new home today - I would absolutely put the wiring for 240v service in my garage - I'd probably put one for every "car space". To not do so would be foolish and likely hurt the value or be a negotiating point of a future buyer. It would cost me next to nothing during construction, and likely a decent chunk of change if done after the fact.

How many people here while spending a weekend stringing Cat6 throughout every bowel of the house have thought "I wish network cable to every room was a requirement of new construction".

Current NEC code for normal interior outlets is:
Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
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Why is no one screaming about this? How dare the government require I put 120v outlets in my home! And every 12 feet at that! This is going to cost a fortune! ;)
 
damicatz said:
Pieces of paper do not supersede natural rights. Unless they are violating the property rights of their neighbors, they have the right to do as they please.

Frankly, I wish the People's Republic of California would just sink into the ocean and take Feinswine and Peloski with it.
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And this guy would probably be the first to sue his city for not inspecting properly if, say he purchases a house and finds out the house wasn't grounded right and it later catches on fire.

Do you have a dryer? or a deep freezer? then you have a 240v connection in your house. A charger is $500 and dropping the way things are going it will be a plus when you sell later on similar to how homes that were 'Cable Ready' were popular in the 80s.
 
Problems:
1. There is no standardized charging interface between car manufacturers. This forces a 220VAC outlet which will then be attached to some sort of plug adapter for the car.

2. The average cost of installing a 220VAC outlet in the garage is roughly $125->$500 (depending on run length and new construction)

3. You'll never recover the additional cost of the batteries in electric cars versus the base price increase and gas cost savings before the battery (and likely the car) will have to be replaced.*

4. Even in off peak hours, there isn't enough total capacity extra to charge cars. Right now it sits about 50% of available off peak capacity in the best markets. In the worst markets it's only 7% extra capacity. That means only 15->50% of cars could be charged before juice runs out. This also assumes that power companies will run at 100% capacity 24/7 which is unreasonable because power companies take generators off line at night to maintain them. They need that "off-peak" time.

* This is based on all plug car models available vs an equivalent ICE/ICE Hybrid design, assuming free electricity and gas at $4.00/gallon and a 200,000 life to the batteries. (All very generous assumptions in favor the electric)
 
I don't really understand electric cars. All you're doing is moving the source of fossil fuel away from the vehicle itself and onto the local power plant. If everyone plugs in their cars to charge overnight, that's a massive drain on the power grid. It's just shifting the source of the drain from the gas station to the utility.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
In what way?

Short range, far more pollution in production and disposal than most gas cars will ever produce, extremely expensive to maintain, overpriced, obnoxiously long charge times compared to filling up a gas tank..Oh yes..so much better. :rolleyes:
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The "far more pollution in production and disposal" yes. But they make up for it over the life of the car. (The biggest "study" on this compared a Hummer to a Prius, based on the false assumption that the Hummer was "good" for 300,000 miles, while the Prius only good for 100,000.)

"Extremely expensive to maintain," Uh, what? I have never heard of *ANY* expensiveness to maintain any electric vehicle. They are *SIMPLER* to maintain.

"Overpriced" - Some are, absolutely. Some are absolutely priced as 'fad vehicles'. But there are reasonably priced ones. (And yes, even 'reasonably priced' cost more up front than a gasoline car, but they save more than that over the life.)

Obnoxiously long charge times - that's what this proposal is to help eliminate. Build in the infrastructure for fast charging everywhere. With high-power chargers, recharging to a high percent can take about the same amount of time as filling up with gas. And multiple companies (most notably Tesla) are developing automated battery swap stations which will take LESS time than filling up with gas. (Although that will be expensive, at least at first.)
 
Terpfen said:
I don't really understand electric cars. All you're doing is moving the source of fossil fuel away from the vehicle itself and onto the local power plant. If everyone plugs in their cars to charge overnight, that's a massive drain on the power grid. It's just shifting the source of the drain from the gas station to the utility.
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I also don't understand everyone's beef with electric cars. I leased a chevy volt for $264 a month (after taxes with only $200 down) it reduced my gas expense from $300 down to $75, my electric bill went up about $30. The car nearly pays for itself, its nice to drive -- no engine noise or vibration, lots of torque. Also, there is some sense of satisfaction plugging the car in when you get home versus having to stop for gas every few days.

From a pollution standpoint, it will continue to become more efficient as the grid is upgraded -- were as a fossil fuel car degrades as it wears out. It reduces our dependence on foreign oil, i sleep better knowing I am lining the pockets of my local power company rather then foreign oil.

Anyone who thinks electric cars is a fad needs to open their eyes. Electric cars are the only option of us ever leaving fossil fuels for transportation. The infrastructure is in place, no other technology has this major advantage. Gas is not going to get cheaper long term, do you still want to drive your gasoline car when its $6 a gallon, $8, or $12 ?
 
I think the ultimate reason behind this is safety, in the terms of keeping the do-it-yourselfers who think they know what they're doing but really do not ("I watched a Youtube video, man, I got this...") from attempting to add a 240V line to a breaker box that doesn't have any room for one.

240V lines to the garage may seem silly now, but 20 or 30 years from now, such policies could save lives and money. And remember, this is only on new home builds when doing so will cost $50 or less, in a particular city where EVs are popular and new homes are not being built for less than $1 million; nobody's going around forcing people to put these in retroactively.
 
Just so people understand... There's really only one way a new house gets built in Palo Alto... Someone buys an old house, knocks it down, and builds a new one.

FYI a guy I used to work with has seen this happen to 2 houses in the last year within a block of his house. The cheapest of which sold for just under 6 million dollars.

Palo Alto is a different world. They can do whatever they want there.
 
I'd also guess the Tesla Model S per capita in Palo Alto is higher than just about any other city. I routinely see a dozen or two Teslas a week and I "slum it" in upper middle class San Ramon --> Milpitas corridor.
 
I'd charge my car if it was dual engine. Electric to the front wheels and gas to the rear wheels. Kinda like the new Evo XI Hybrid concept , 0-60 in 4.5s
 
I'm not sure exactly what they mean by wired.

But if its every house needs to be wired with line that is capable of carrying a higher amperage load then that's fine. That's Neighborhood safety and long run cost savings so they don't have to rewire the neighborhood to accommodate higher loads.

To force them to install the receptacle is another story.
 
buttons said:
I also don't understand everyone's beef with electric cars. I leased a chevy volt for $264 a month (after taxes with only $200 down) it reduced my gas expense from $300 down to $75, my electric bill went up about $30. The car nearly pays for itself, its nice to drive -- no engine noise or vibration, lots of torque. Also, there is some sense of satisfaction plugging the car in when you get home versus having to stop for gas every few days.

From a pollution standpoint, it will continue to become more efficient as the grid is upgraded -- were as a fossil fuel car degrades as it wears out. It reduces our dependence on foreign oil, i sleep better knowing I am lining the pockets of my local power company rather then foreign oil.

Anyone who thinks electric cars is a fad needs to open their eyes. Electric cars are the only option of us ever leaving fossil fuels for transportation. The infrastructure is in place, no other technology has this major advantage. Gas is not going to get cheaper long term, do you still want to drive your gasoline car when its $6 a gallon, $8, or $12 ?
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#1. Lease is synominous with Fleece.
#2. What you are driving is a GLORIFIED Chevy Cruze. $17,150 starting price. The volt is $41685 before tax credit. And I'm not giving you the credit because that money must be paid back to the China and every else with interest.
#3. In Hybrid mode on the highway, the Volt gets WORSE gas economy then the Cruze.

Nothing personal, but I would never have you as my financial advisor.
 
buttons said:
From a pollution standpoint, it will continue to become more efficient as the grid is upgraded -- were as a fossil fuel car degrades as it wears out. It reduces our dependence on foreign oil, i sleep better knowing I am lining the pockets of my local power company rather then foreign oil.
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The grid isn't being upgraded. It's being repaired, yes, but not upgraded. Good luck tearing up those hundred year old decrepit structures in areas like NYC to actually upgrade their power systems—not to mention adding things like modern insulation.

As for foreign oil dependence, we provide 40% of our own oil (with centuries more available under the ground in areas where environmentalists oppose exploration), with another 35% coming from Canada and Latin America combined.

You actually are doing nothing to reduce dependence on something that we aren't dependent on in the first place.
 
buttons said:
I also don't understand everyone's beef with electric cars. I leased a chevy volt for $264 a month (after taxes with only $200 down) it reduced my gas expense from $300 down to $75, my electric bill went up about $30. The car nearly pays for itself, its nice to drive -- no engine noise or vibration, lots of torque. Also, there is some sense of satisfaction plugging the car in when you get home versus having to stop for gas every few days.
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You must have had a pretty inefficient vehicle or been commuting a long way on stop/start roads to have that sort of gas expense.
 
Maybe they should install solar panels while they are at it as well, reduce the coal being burned to charge the sodding car.
 
Who killed the electric car?

Oil companies, that's who.

Oil companies that probably pay big money to lobby our government to get their way.
Oil companies that probably pay big money to buy the newest battery technologies and then destroy them.
Oil companies that probably pay the car manufacturers big money to design rather inefficient hybrids that still rely on gas.
Oil companies that probably pay the car manufacturers big money to keep full EV models underfeatured, uncomfortable, impractical for most, and overpriced for almost all.

What I'd like to see is a full EV with a 1 or 2 cyl high efficiency diesel engine turning a generator...a generator that puts out enough juice to power every light, feature, function, and electric motor in that car simultaneously while also providing some level of charging to the battery(/y +ies). We have had the generator and diesel engine technologies readily available for a long time now, so why the hell aren't they being used? Probably because of big money coming from the oil companies to hinder things in the EV design and implementation dept.

When it comes to the subject of electric vehicles, I miss living in Germany....electric buses, electric street trains/trolleys, electric subways, electric above ground trains, etc. They have one hell of a superior power delivery system and a fantastic public/mass transportation system.
 
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