Alex St John doesn't think Vista is a very good OS for gaming on

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by Gatticus, Mar 30, 2007.

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  1. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    And I agree. Over to you leg humpers. :)

    http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2007/032907_alexstjohn1_3.x

    Shack: Microsoft's tendency to force its users--and internal staff--into adopting their technology seems to be a common theme with the company. Many PC gamers right now feel that they're being not so much nudged, but shoved in the direction of Windows Vista. Do you see Vista as a viable gaming platform at present?

    Alex St John: Well, the PC--forget the operating system--is always a great platform. Modern PCs have superior graphics and memory and processing power to any next-gen console. I don't think Microsoft did anything to help the PC as a gaming platform with Vista, and that's a tremendous frustration because I take it very personally. If I would've been there, I would have made much more aggressive efforts to make sure Vista stayed out of the way of games. What you see with Microsoft is, without people at Microsoft who realize that the operating system does not add value to gaming, it gets in the way, they think they can add more value by adding in more shit that only gets in the way of making a good game. Unfortunately, Vista does that. Microsoft added more shit that impedes game development. It's certainly possible to make great games in Vista, it's just more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be. I think Vista is a missed opportunity for Microsoft to have done a better job in supporting PC gaming.

    Shack: What are some of the bottlenecks that you see Vista causing for games?

    Alex St John: The Vista game explorer is a dumb idea. They hard-coded a game browser that was somebody's idea, at Microsoft, for what a good user experience is for discovering games. They imposed a parental control system that doesn't work, and because it's hard-coded into the OS, you can't replace it, and you can't work around it; it has implications for the user experience that can't be fixed by Microsoft. Essentially they put a roadblock right in the center of the screen that developers and users are going to have to maneuver around.

    The biggest foolishness is Vista's security architecture. Any time someone questions Vista's security, Microsoft accuses that person of being anti-security, or is just bummed because they can't do naughty things that they otherwise wanted to do. Vista's security is weird, it's like a house made out of concrete walls but has screen doors. It's an enormously overbuilt security system with huge, gaping holes. It's extremely intrusive, and it gets in the way of the user's experience without actually being secure. It makes it even harder for consumers to download things and play games, without actually gaining any security benefits. It basically fucks up legitimate applications while leaving holes for the bad ones to just climb on through.
     
  2. zacdl

    zacdl [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hmmm... let's see.
    #1- Nobody is forcing them to switch.
    #2- It does have XP compatibility mode


    Wow, that's news to me. Microsoft was focusing on PC gaming? For some reason I thought they already had a whole other division for Gaming, they called the Xbox...
    Even that aside, Microsoft was focusing on user stupidity- not gaming.


    Again, what do you think they are going to push more? Xbox gaming, or PC gaming? Where do you think they make more money? This article makes it out to look like Microsoft had no idea what they were doing...
    Like I said, nobody is forcing them to switch. Vista has XP Compatibility mode which fixes MOST games.

    Well, this tells me alot. He sounds alot like those that say UAC is useless...
    FAN-BOY. This guy is obviously just anti-Microsoft.


    Whose fault is it they distribute porn, viruses, and malware? Microsoft's? Use common sense.
     
  3. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Microsoft has stated many times that with Vista they are once again focusing on gamers. The same BS they told us with Win95. Where's my one click button to unload all the background crap going on?
     
  4. dot_Zen

    dot_Zen Gawd

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    Who the f' is Alex St. John and why should his opinion matter to me? :confused:

    I don't, never have, never will play wild tangent games. He likes his software extra bloated and I like mine extra lean. We'll probably never see eye to eye.

    Ranting about parental controls, that do work, is a pretty useless dig @ MS.

    Nice try at more FUD. Next.
     
  5. GJSNeptune

    GJSNeptune [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Oh hell. Wild Tangent is atrocious. I'm pretty sure it pops up on spyware scanners too.

    ...DX10?
     
  6. pxc

    pxc [H]ard as it Gets

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    Who cares what that junkware vendor thinks? Anything that keeps people from installing his shovelware/spyware is a *good thing*.

    This is just a rehash of his whining from back in January anyways. :rolleyes:
     
  7. XOR != OR

    XOR != OR [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Bingo. There is one person's opinion that matters to me, and that is my own. My friends' too, to a limited extent. But some random internet bot?

    I don't think so. He's free to whine to his heart's content.
     
  8. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Considering you don't even know who he is and obviously didn't read the article your opinion is completely irrelevant.

    p.s. he is the guy that gave us DirectX, doh!
     
  9. crashthenet44

    crashthenet44 Limp Gawd

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    What a lame BS worthless article. Like others have said, who is Alex St. John to be running his mouth. Sounds to me like a guy whos worried that UAC will stop people from installing his POS software on their PC's.
     
  10. zacdl

    zacdl [H]ard|Gawd

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    I would like to see where they said that. Microsoft has never focused on gamers. The OS came about first- and then the games. I think Microsoft can care the heck less about games right now and more about preventing stupid users from doing stupid things.

    What's ironic, is you don't realize what you just said works the same exact way the other way around.
    I have never heard of this guy in my life either. And his comments on UAC and Parental Controls virtually eliminate any credibility he had.

    I don't know about what this software of his is, but doing a quick search, it does look like it is a pile of crap program that will get sucked up by most Malware scanners.
     
  11. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Wow! You should really step away from the keyboard now.
     
  12. zacdl

    zacdl [H]ard|Gawd

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    I see you don't offer anything more than an insult, so you really aren't helping your claim.
     
  13. jstnomega

    jstnomega [H]ard|Gawd

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    Kids these days. That's like asking, "Who the f is Les Paul & why should his opinion re elecetric guitars matter to me?"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_St._John

    If it wasn't for Alex St. John, pc gaming in W's would still be the DOS configuration nightmare from which he freed us all w/the development of DirectX.
     
  14. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/wi...-outlines-future-of-interactive-entertainment
    Microsoft Corp. Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates recently staked the claim that the Xbox 360 system will have a 10 million-unit head start by the time the competition enters the market and more than 160 games by the end of the year. Gates went on to outline the company’s bold new vision to connect millions of Xbox 360 gamers with hundreds of millions of Microsoft Windows-based PC and mobile gamers from around the world through the Xbox Live online entertainment network. Gates made the announcements at a press conference to open the Electronic

    http://www.themoneytimes.com/articl...ing_extends_xbox_live_to_vista-id-103097.html
    MS steps towards 'anywhere' gaming, extends Xbox Live to Vista
    by Shubha Krishnappa - March 14, 2007 - 0 comments
    MS steps towards 'anywhere' gaming, extends Xbox Live to Vista

    Microsoft on Wednesday announced that its Games for Windows - Live service, which is set to launch in North America on May 8, will be available in every country and region supported by Xbox Live, a move that would bring together the most popular online console game service with the most popular games platform in the world.

    Games for Windows - Live brings Xbox Live features to Windows and connects Windows gamers to over six million existing Xbox 360 console gamers.

    Microsoft’s latest move that comes nearly a year after company Chairman Bill Gates said the company's vision was for 'anywhere' gaming that would link video game consoles, cell phones and computers is apparently a key step towards achieving that goal.


    http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-US/Pages/default.aspx

    http://www.windows-vista-update.com/Windows_Vista_computer_games.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/28/nmicro128.xml
    Nearly two months after Microsoft launched its latest version of Windows, computer users are still struggling to get their PCs and laptops working properly, it emerged yesterday.

    The internet is buzzing with complaints that the Vista operating system - designed to be more robust and more secure than previous versions of Windows- is causing havoc with games, printers, cameras and other peripherals.
     
  15. zacdl

    zacdl [H]ard|Gawd

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    Some pretty pathetic arguments, considering Microsoft hasn't even released these services yet.
     
  16. bbz_Ghost

    bbz_Ghost 2[H]4U

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    St. John is the one person most directly responsible for DirectX getting off the ground many years ago (you kids crack me up sometimes... "Who the hell is this guy?"). Without him and his position as "Technology Evangelist" in the past, DirectX wouldn't have made it to the light of day - many times he went toe to toe and fisticuffs directly with Bill Gates himself over what DirectX could mean to Microsoft if they were allowed to do it the right way. By "they" I mean St. John's development team which he spearheaded.

    So for those that don't know who he is, the only thing you really need to know is: he's the guy that basically created DirectX, he worked in the trenches at Microsoft for many years, and compared to some industry "pundit" like John C. Dvorak (who never designed anything, never built anything, never ran anything, was never responsible for anything except being a pundit), St. John knows his shit, and Windows, like not many other people alive today actually do.
     
  17. LstOfTheBrunnenG

    LstOfTheBrunnenG [H]ardness Supreme

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    I fail to see how parental controls and UAC impede game development anyway....:confused:

    They may impede people trying to play a game, if the game is written so that it triggers UAC prompts and you're playing on a computer with parental controls enabled, but the development process?
     
  18. LstOfTheBrunnenG

    LstOfTheBrunnenG [H]ardness Supreme

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    All the "background crap" in physical memory is shifted to swap space or simply discarded if you start using a memory-intensive application (read: a game) that takes needs the extra space.

    Or maybe you'd rather alt-tab out when memory gets low, press your coveted button, and then alt-tab back in?

    Look, I don't know about other games, but my performance in CS:S is as good as or better than in XP.
     
  19. dot_Zen

    dot_Zen Gawd

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    I guess my attempt at witty humor fell on deaf ears. You can spare me the history lesson on what he's done in the past. All that ever matters is what YOU are doing now. And right now, at this second, he's fearing UAC and parental controls because they may block a good source of his inflated income.

    And since none of you -- or me -- worked at MS 'back in the day', than there's absolutely no way to know that DirectX rest solely on one man's shoulders. I'd love to hear one of you, state absolutely, that no other person could have ever made an API similar or better than DX.

    UAC, the Games explorer, nor parental controls are perfect. But, they're a damn good step in the right direction and I still fail to see how they are the doomsday of PC gaming.
     
  20. duby229

    duby229 2[H]4U

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    You ever hear that old saying, "Too many chiefs and not enough indians"?

    If you have then you'll know it has a negative meaning. In that people need someone to lead them, but if you have too many leaders they become followers with no leaders, and then nothing gets done.

    You got to have someone direct the chaos.
     
  21. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm talking about Windows Defender, AV software, the Gadgets, unnecessary services etc. I seem to remember reading that Vista Ultimate would have a one click button to shut all that stuff down for game mode. I see no one commenting on that feature so where is it? I don't have Ultimate so can't check for it myself.
     
  22. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well, he never said they are the doomsday, he said they impede a good gaming OS.
     
  23. The Donut

    The Donut 2[H]4U

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    thedonut thinks Gatticus is Alex St John
     
  24. InorganicMatter

    InorganicMatter I Don't Know How to Make Threads

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    Vista does all that for you when you launch a game. :)

    Believe it or not, there's more to this new OS than Aero and the UAC. :p
     
  25. CptFalcon

    CptFalcon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Actually the OS pushes everything to the side automatically just so that it can focus on that application. So yeah, you got your button but you can actually see it. It's automatic, ooh! ;)
     
  26. feek

    feek Limp Gawd

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    This thread is retarded. You guys keep saying "dumb article, who is this guy??" when it's explained who he is in the first fucking page. It's a great article, very interesting.

    Those of you that are concerned about his WildTangent stuff should find out more next week when the next part of the interview is published which focuses on that, I believe.
     
  27. Catweazle

    Catweazle 2[H]4U

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    True all that, and a great reminisce. Until, of course, we arrive at your final sentence. You've implied there that because the fellow is a legend in his field his every utterance must necessarily therefore be golden. Sorry, but when you begin talking shit you're talking shit. Doesn't matter who you are. And, in the extract above at least, the bloke is talking shit because his reasonings completely miss the point.

    Saves me from saying it.

    UAC brings implications for some existant game-related activities. Deal with it. Whining is a waste of time and energy. St. John's whinings above are reminiscent of the next generation console related whinings of Carmack. It's a more complex working environment now. Get used to it! Longing for the past won't get you anywhere!


    The Games Explorer and Parental controls are 'Mum and Dad' gaming related. They're an irrelevence to a discussion like this. Hardcore 'gamers' aren't going to use them, so why dwell on the things? It's a waste of page space to do so.

    The real concern for gaming on the PC isn't security. It isn't Mum and Dad features. It's stability. Pure and simple. System stability issues are what drive a lot of people away from gaming on the PC. Crashes. Patches. All the fiddling around to get things working. And it's been the most basic principles underlying the interaction of harware, games and the OS which has caused the situation to be what it is.

    Vista takes a giant stride to redress the situation. The brave decision has been taken to basically address hardware manifacturers and say "Fuck all this! Play fair together or don't play at all!" DX10 and the new driver model says that quite clearly. It's a brave decision because it 'breaks' a lot of what we had, but it's a decision we should embrace if we want to see gaming on the PC with any semblance of a future.

    St. John might well have been a PC gaming pioneer. But let's not forget that the road he drove through was built on pretty bloody unstable foundations!
     
  28. bbz_Ghost

    bbz_Ghost 2[H]4U

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    Oh my, it's the pot calling the kettle black! With exclamations!

    Joe Average, consumer that happens to own a computer, is Microsoft's target audience, not hardcore gamers. Someday all of you will finally come to realize this and then realize that the miniscule sub-.5% of total personal computer owners (the hardcore gamers) is a minority of the highest order and no amount of barking is going to change that.

    You want stability? Go buy a fuckin' console based on a platform architecture that doesn't change every other time Newegg has a "HOT DEAL!!!" on a new video card or a bigger hard drive. PCs are nearly infinite in their possible platform architectures. The basic components of a CPU, RAM, hard drive, optical storage, etc... that's as stable as it's going to get.

    In a disk based OS, there is no true stability. Everytime you boot the machine you're dealing with a different OS. Hell, there's no true stability on any platform of any kind that can be guaranteed 100%, that's just another myth. Myth I tell you! ;)

    Bleh. All this gets people absolutely nowhere and only prolongs the execution date of such threads.
     
  29. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yep, and Catweazle is really B. Gates and bbz_ghost is really S. Balllmer.
     
  30. Gatticus

    Gatticus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yea, and it makes my coffee for me in the morning and wipes my bum after I take a dump. :)
     
  31. zacdl

    zacdl [H]ard|Gawd

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    Put excellently! Just like the UAC thread- Microsoft is looking at the average users, not the tiny amount of Unix users. Not gamers.
    Heck, Microsoft has already done a ton for gamers- the Xbox. It only makes logical sense they don't care about PC games much.
    From a business standpoint- Microsoft makes a buttload more money selling Xbox consoles and games than PC games (virtually nothing).

    Microsoft, in my opinion, has done a great thing with Vista. People have been complaining nonstop about the incompatible hardware.
    Well, it is time for a change.
    I think drivers and compatibility have been the greatest downfall of Windows. Trying to be compatible with too much old, outdated, buggy programs and hardware.
    Microsoft is actually making hardware vendors make some quaility componets now, software vendors to write good programs.

    I am amazed at how much people are scared of change. Just today I was talking to a friend of mine about some things (not computer related), and people are just so scared of change. Either you adapt and move on, or get left in the dust crying about it.
     
  32. InorganicMatter

    InorganicMatter I Don't Know How to Make Threads

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    Be as satirical as you like, you know I'm correct.
     
  33. odoe

    odoe Madministrator Staff Member

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    That third person speak is going to stop. It's threadcrapping and annoying, so cut it out.
     
  34. duby229

    duby229 2[H]4U

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    Your kidding right? This coming from the OS that has the worse hardware support, and software support then any other OS in recent memory?

    What is so quality about not being able to run the hardware or the software you prefer?
     
  35. CptFalcon

    CptFalcon [H]ard|Gawd

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    I do hope that your kidding, b/c MS is the only company that actually releases good stuff. Now granted that they aren't the best but still. Linux = volunteers, Mac = too expensive. It's late so I can't really think straight so I bid all of you good night.
     
  36. Stupac

    Stupac [H]ard|Gawd

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    As the drivers get better I bet Vista will equal or outperform XP.

    i wonder who will win in the DX10 benchmarks?:D
     
  37. duby229

    duby229 2[H]4U

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    Its not MS, and this isnt a comparison of other OS's... XP was awesome, and worked very ewell..... The problem is simply limited to Vista. It does have the worse hardware and software support in any OS in recent memory.
     
  38. jimmyb

    jimmyb 2[H]4U

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    Very interesting read. Thanks for the linkage.
     
  39. Martyr

    Martyr 2[H]4U

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    ok, lets compare the hardware support to linux...burn

    lets try osx....ok that didnt even get a chance to start.


    software support? do you have your head completely up your ass? im not even going to discuss this one.



    you are an amd fanchild, and you also hate on the microsoft. do you just hate on whoever is the market leader?
     
  40. nigerian_businessman

    nigerian_businessman [H]ard|Gawd

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    To quote you, do you have your head completely up your ass?

    As of this point, Ubuntu has Vista beat on hardware support.
     
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