Air Force Grounds F-35 Joint Strike Fighters Due To Cooling Line Flaw

[Ieldra]

They just exploit an

You are right. Repressive regimes have been very effective at containing extremists.

Just because something is effective - however - doesn't mean it is right. We can in our right minds celebrate out freedoms while asking large portions of the world to live under dictatorial rule because we need them to contain extremism for us. This is completely unethical.

Who cares about unethical, it's completely counterproductive if you *don't want * religious extremism.

It's bullshit

 

[Ducman69]

Why are Americans still mentally fighting the Cold War?

Yup, if someone asked me about penetrating Russian airspace, I'd ask why the heck we'd do that? Russia is for Russians, America is for Americans, we keep to our own, and fist bump and knock out a common foe when mutual interests converge. The expansion of communism is no longer a threat, as Marxism is by and large dead in modern day Russia and they are happy democratic capitalists just like everyone else.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

They just exploit an


Who cares about unethical, it's completely counterproductive if you *don't want * religious extremism.

It's bullshit

Our freedom is not just and it is not right if it comes at the expense of the freedom of other peoples around the world.

This concept shouldn't be so difficult to understand.

This is not the age of empires. It is not right to take from others to satisfy your own needs or wants.

This should govern everything.

 

[Ieldra]

Our freedom is not just and it is not right if it comes at the expense of the freedom of other peoples around the world.

This concept shouldn't be so difficult to understand.

This is not the age of empires. It is not right to take from others to satisfy your own needs or wants.

This should govern everything.

But it doesn't, I don't mean to open Pandora's box here but just look at Israel.

Can you blame people for hating America and its double standards when it makes feeble PR speeches condemning Israeli demolishing and settlement expansion and evictions then doing nothing.

This is just an example, but the youth of the Arab world and Middle East are disillusioned and very very bitter.

You cannot imagine how you would turn out if you were born in Gaza, or Syria, or Iraq, or Libya, or Egypt. Especially if you were born to rural poor, you cannot imagine.

 

[Shintai]

In Denmark we just bought these, despite all kinds of warnings. We call them IC35, due to the previous IC4 scandal.

 

[Ducman69]

Our freedom is not just and it is not right if it comes at the expense of the freedom of other peoples around the world.

This concept shouldn't be so difficult to understand.

This is not the age of empires. It is not right to take from others to satisfy your own needs or wants.

This should govern everything.

Huh? The argument is that we shouldn't have ANY involvement in the middle-east, and allow them to govern themselves. And the fact that there is less death, including on our side, when they choose to govern themselves under the iron fist of a dictator is simply another incentive not to mess in middle-eastern politics. Surely you wouldn't argue that the people of Iraq have a higher quality of life and are safer now that they are freed from a dictator?

We have enough problems of our own to deal with, we don't need to kick the ants nest that is the middle-east, nor import it into our own borders.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Why are Americans still mentally fighting the Cold War?

Yup, if someone asked me about penetrating Russian airspace, I'd ask why the heck we'd do that? Russia is for Russians, America is for Americans, we keep to our own, and fist bump and knock out a common foe when mutual interests converge. The expansion of communism is no longer a threat, as Marxism is by and large dead in modern day Russia and they are happy democratic capitalists just like everyone else.

Two comments about this.

1.) Russians often wind up selling their arms to regimes we wind up in conflict with. We need to design our capabilities such that we are able to challenge what potential foes are likely to get their hands on. While it is unlikely today, if we declared war on, and were in military conflict with Assad's regime in Syria - for instance - you can bet they would have Russian-made air defenses.

2.) I would have agreed with the whole "we don't need to re-fight the Cold War" line of argument up until rather recently. Then Russia started being malevolent again. Look at what they did to Georgia after Georgia tried to legally reassert control part of their own territory, South Ossetia. Look at what is going on in Ukraine. Look at how they sent operatives over the border into Estonia to kidnap a an Estonian security official. Estonia is a NATO member for crying out loud. If Russia keeps going down this track, I fear some sort of armed conflict with them is not going to be as far-fetched as many of you suggest.

 

[Ieldra]

Two comments about this.

1.) Russians often wind up selling their arms to regimes we wind up in conflict with. We need to design our capabilities such that we are able to challenge what potential foes are likely to get their hands on. While it is unlikely today, if we declared war on, and were in military conflict with Assad's regime in Syria - for instance - you can bet they would have Russian-made air defenses.

2.) I would have agreed with the whole "we don't need to re-fight the Cold War" line of argument up until rather recently. Then Russia started being malevolent again. Look at what they did to Georgia after Georgia tried to legally reassert control part of their own territory, South Ossetia. Look at what is going on in Ukraine. Look at how they sent operatives over the border into Estonia to kidnap a an Estonian security official. Estonia is a NATO member for crying out loud. If Russia keeps going down this track, I fear some sort of armed conflict with them is not going to be as far-fetched as many of you suggest.

If you're going to talk about malevolence we should also include US covert adventures in South America

Salvador Allende anyone? Remember pinochet?

The global problem is the people in power have business interests at heart, their policy is shaped by their benefactor's agendas and the only thing we as democratic nations choose in an election is who will enact our Lords' plans. Let's not kid ourselves, and definitely don't buy into masturbatory speeches by politicians

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

If you're going to talk about malevolence we should also include US covert adventures in South America

Salvador Allende anyone? Remember pinochet?

The global problem is the people in power have business interests at heart, their policy is shaped by their benefactor's agendas and the only thing we as democratic nations choose in an election is who will enact our Lords' plans. Let's not kid ourselves, and definitely don't buy into masturbatory speeches by politicians

I'm not excusing these by any means. It is - however - tough for me to give equal weight to things that happened several years before I was born, and things that are happening now.

As a nation we have done plenty of unsavory things over the decades. We can't change what has happened in the past, but we can try to push for doing the right things now.

 

[Ieldra]

I'm not excusing these by any means. It is - however - tough for me to give equal weight to things that happened several years before I was born, and things that are happening now.

As a nation we have done plenty of unsavory things over the decades. We can't change what has happened in the past, but we can try to push for doing the right things now.

Its tough for me as well it's only natural, but to look at the middle east now, in a bubble of time so to speak, you will not understand it.

Obviously undoing 60 years of history will not solve the problem, nor is it viable, but its necessary to look at it all to understand what is going on now

If you want to look at fundamentally unethical actions taking place today in the US just take a look at Norman Finkelstein's life in the past decade. That guy was ruined simply for doing his job as an academic

I don't know about you but as engineering and science minded 24 year old I think the world is fucked and I want to found my own nation like Outer Heaven in Metal Gear lol

Nothing is more powerful than popular movements, and no army can truly stand in front of them. Look at the first intifada, that brought Israel to its knees on the international stage and made them look terrible, and it had a profound effect on public opinion.

No country in the world can suppress stone throwing children with one of the best trained trained and beat equipped armies in the world and maintain its perceived position as moral crusader against terrorism.

Look at recent developments, hamas firing those feeble rockets lol, if they're lucky they'll kill one person every 200 missiles. It's hilarious, and it's not a threat and it certainly doesn't help the cause of the Palestinians.

People who are oppressed will react violently eventually, I don't condone violence, I genuinely am averse to violence, but I *can* understand how a kid born into this mess will end up blowing himself up on a bus, or enacting a mass shooting, or going on a stabbing spree, and whether it's in the Muslim world, the US, Norway, whatever it doesn't matter

It only succeeded initially(the first intifada) because their cunt leadership was exiled to Jordan. The people in power always fuck the population over, I don't buy into the conspiracy theorist bullshit, but you've got to be blind not to see the same exact things happening in every country in the world.

 

[RottenMutt]

Why are Americans still mentally fighting the Cold War?

Russia has sold the S-400 all around the world, I use Russia only as an example, Iran has ordered the system and china has it. Stealth aircraft are a necessity to counter surface to air missiles.
An F117 was shot down over Yugoslavia, it was a blind shot, as the americans kept flying the same route over and over. Missile was basically used as antiaircraft battery.

1999 F-117A shootdown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ieldra]

Russia has sold the S-400 all around the world, I use Russia only as an example, Iran has ordered the system and china has it. Stealth aircraft are a necessity to counter surface to air missiles.
An F117 was shot down over Yugoslavia, it was a blind shot, as the americans kept flying the same route over and over. Missile was basically used as antiaircraft battery.

1999 F-117A shootdown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm by no means an expert, but why not just make a stealth drone f35? Wouldn't that be cheaper? Since it communicates with installations on land for strikes and doesnt even have to use the on board weapons...

 

[Ducman69]

Stealth aircraft are a necessity to counter surface to air missiles.

Completely stealth aircraft don't exist though. You just have a smaller radar signature, not an invisible one, and populated areas render it moot due to cell towers that can be used to triangulate air disruptions.

We went through this before, where so much was invested in low flying aircraft to get under radar, and that was rendered moot overnight thanks to advances in missile tech.

Expendable drone warfare is the future, as that way you're basically pitting economy vs economy, and foes like ISIS can't hope to compete, and larger militaries like US vs Russia vs China wouldn't want to get into that kind of competition since its a lose-lose situation. It'd be mutually assured destruction in the economic sense (or at least big hits on each side), and wars are generally fought for economic reasons, negating that option.

And as leldra said, you can use stealth drones instead, that have greater operational range and much longer flight times (three times as long from what I've read), and a single person could operate a a whole wing, flying a lead bird in a set of various formations, and deploying weapons from each as needed and switching between aircraft as is useful. If one gets shot down, there's no international incident trying to get the pilot back, and you could even program it to self-destruct if desired. And no more worries about the limits of human endurance on g-forces either, so in theory you could do some crazy pre-programmed evasive maneuvers.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Completely stealth aircraft don't exist though. You just have a smaller radar signature, not an invisible one, and populated areas render it moot due to cell towers that can be used to triangulate air disruptions.

We went through this before, where so much was invested in low flying aircraft to get under radar, and that was rendered moot overnight thanks to advances in missile tech.

Yeah, the general population seems to think the concept of "stealth" is a binary thing, when really all "stealth" technology is, is reducing the radar signature so you are less vidible, not completely invisible to radar. The most you can hope to gain against a well equipped foe, is a shorter range of detect-ability.

Expendable drone warfare is the future, as that way you're basically pitting economy vs economy, and foes like ISIS can't hope to compete, and larger militaries like US vs Russia vs China wouldn't want to get into that kind of competition since its a lose-lose situation. It'd be mutually assured destruction in the economic sense (or at least big hits on each side), and wars are generally fought for economic reasons, negating that option.

And as leldra said, you can use stealth drones instead, that have greater operational range and much longer flight times (three times as long from what I've read), and a single person could operate a a whole wing, flying a lead bird in a set of various formations, and deploying weapons from each as needed and switching between aircraft as is useful. If one gets shot down, there's no international incident trying to get the pilot back, and you could even program it to self-destruct if desired. And no more worries about the limits of human endurance on g-forces either, so in theory you could do some crazy pre-programmed evasive maneuvers.

Yeah, it probably isn't far off. Right now, I think the concern is having communication to the unmanned aircraft cut off, and that the pre-programmed logic isn't yet up to snuff to operate completely independently. Probably won't be long before this is no longer the case, and that time will come with it's own set of ethical quandaries, like "when is it OK for a machine to decide to kill a human being, without human input"?

 

[Skripka]

Russia has sold the S-400 all around the world, I use Russia only as an example, Iran has ordered the system and china has it. Stealth aircraft are a necessity to counter surface to air missiles.
An F117 was shot down over Yugoslavia, it was a blind shot, as the americans kept flying the same route over and over. Missile was basically used as antiaircraft battery.

1999 F-117A shootdown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or here's a wicked thought...why not stop trying and failing miserably at "fixing" the world?

The number of military operations which involved air cover...that worked out positively for both the locals living in the country, AND for US relations and regional stability since WWII...well I can count offhand on ONE hand.


Maybe the US should try fixing itself before continuing to struggle implementing 60 years of failed proxy war and proxy state foreign policy. We broke Iraq back in the 1950s by getting Saddam Hussein elected in the first place (thanks CIA). Our South American drug and violence problem is the direct result of "Better Dead than Red" foreign policy in the 1950s too. So is Iran BTW. So is Afghanistan....the list of places the USA BROKE and left in ruins is longer than your arm.

And the USA is somehow so monumentally ignorant of their own foreign policy to not understand any of it-and be so naive as to think the answer are aircraft whose cost per unit exceed the GDP of entire countries.

 

[ColHomer]

I'm sure we did, the question is if it was fratricide, or another attempt by the Obama administration to spark a war with Russia.

And its so ironic, as the same people that seem to be doing everything they can to go to war with the world's second largest military super-power, Russia, are the ones claiming Trump will start WW3 when Trump is the one talking about cooperation against mutual enemies like ISIS. *shakes head*

I'm just trying to understand how we can benefit from making Russia our enemy, and can't think of a downside of working with Russia on shared interests... Hopefully Hillary doesn't win, and we won't have to worry about the former.

Ya let's elect the guy that has gone on record saying he wants to hand out nukes like candy, Japan gets nukes, South Korea gets nukes! And for good measure lets dismantle NATO while were at it.....

 

[bos]

I feel like these stories only exist because of left-wing, anti-war, anti-defense-budget agendas. These are really non-stories. Even the F-15 (inagruably the world's most accomplished fighter in theaters of war) has gotten grounded in recent memory because there was at least one of case of it just falling apart in mid air. I think it was one of the Japanese (F-15J) that had the incident. This kind of thing is what got the F-22 cancelled, when it shouldn't have been, because of sensationalism of minor issues and conflated stories of its expense based on the entire development cost versus the planes which were made to that point which was a dishonest representation of the cost of the plane.

lol, then conservatives should stop complaining about taxes and big government. Because that's exactly what this is, I mean a fucking trillion dollars...for real. It's a grade A fuck up of epic proportions. Reality we don't need these aircraft, just like we have hundreds of tanks we don't need because of bullshit political give aways. Not to mention the asshats in charge of "science" in congress on the right who are barely able to read.

The failure of concurrency
The F-35’s problems are at least partially the result of allowing Lockheed Martin to pursue concurrent flight design and active deployment. The idea behind concurrency was that Lockheed Martin could begin building an aircraft while still fine-tuning various aspects of its design. In theory, applied to much simpler vehicles, it might have worked, especially if the F-35 had been a modest evolution of an existing aircraft.

Applied to the F-35, concurrency has been a disaster. Right now, every single F-35 already built will need to be extensively overhauled to meet its minimum performance targets. It’s one thing to overhaul a ship or aircraft to improve its baseline capabilities, and something else entirely when the aircraft as delivered can’t execute its mission.

 

[ColHomer]

I'm by no means an expert, but why not just make a stealth drone f35? Wouldn't that be cheaper? Since it communicates with installations on land for strikes and doesnt even have to use the on board weapons...

Yes and a stealth drone is already being made. Search for J-UCAS since I can't post links yet. As for the F-35 vs a stealth drone, you have to keep in mind that these weapons platform awards are done years often more than a decade before that weapon platform is considered combat ready. In the case of the F-35 that contract was awarded in 2001.....

 

[Ducman69]

Ya let's elect the guy that has gone on record saying he wants to hand out nukes like candy, Japan gets nukes, South Korea gets nukes! And for good measure lets dismantle NATO while were at it.....

Hey, that looks like fun! I want to make up stuff too. Uhmmm, coconuts are mammals because they have hair and produce milk. True fact!

Put down the Huffington Post, and step away from the internet... *facepalm*

 

[DejaWiz]

The Pentagon Wars is a perfect movie to explain exactly why government overspending of defense exists.

Cutting back the military is not the answer...smarter spending with actual checks and balances is the answer.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Hey, that looks like fun! I want to make up stuff too. Uhmmm, coconuts are mammals because they have hair and produce milk. True fact!

Put down the Huffington Post, and step away from the internet... *facepalm*

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump didn't say these things?

Maybe you need to broaden your source of news a bit. This is not just some vast left wing conspiracy to make Trump look bad on Nato.

 

[RottenMutt]

Expendable drone is a Cruze Missile, not cheap.
A Drones which has the same capabilities as the jsf will be nearly as expensive, so put a pilot in is so you have a lower loss rate. I can see automonous drones which follow manned aircraft, which would increase the capability of the manned aircraft.

 

[Ducman69]

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump didn't say these things?

Maybe you need to broaden your source of news a bit. This is not just some vast left wing conspiracy to make Trump look bad on Nato.

Just curious, are you lying on purpose hoping no one will call you on it, or are you unintentionally obtuse? Lets break down the lies, even though I'm sure you won't apologize:

on record saying he wants to hand out nukes like candy, Japan gets nukes, South Korea gets nukes!

Look at your own source:

Trump: "We are better off if Japan and South Korea protect themselves."
Host: "You are fine with them having nuclear weapons?"
Trump: "No, not nuclear weapons, but they have to protect themselves."

Trump is referring to the fact that we pay for the military protection of South Korea and Japan, and Trump wants those allies to either pay for American protection fully, or to protect themselves. Either way, they shouldn't be getting a free ride at this point in 2016, and either option are viable, which he has repeated and is a logical approach that I agree with fully.

Second lie:

And for good measure lets dismantle NATO while were at it

Look at your own source again:

Host: "Can the members of Nato count on the United States to come to their military aid if attacked by Russia?"
Trump: "Have they fulfilled their obligation to us? If they fulfill their obligation to us, the answer is yes."

What does Trump mean by that? Nato members are getting free US protection without paying the minimum amount they are required to in the treaty. If they are in violation of the treaty, then the US does not need to abide by that treaty. This is common sense, and again the goal is the same as with South Korea and Japan. Trump wants them to PAY their fair share.

 

[N4CR]

To the poster with 15 posts saying the capabilities are unrivalled, tell that to an A10 which has a far longer loiter time, far higher weapon load and survivability than an F35 for ground attack missions, which lets face it, are the main use of airpower today. We are never going to see WW3 because the jewry/bankers who started WW2 shat bricks when that nearly ran out of control and destroyed their own back yard.
Not to mention WW3 would bring out the real weapons, quantum/scalar EM systems, which make most conventional systems and nuclear weapons absolute paper weights.

In a time of increasingly effective and capable infrared imaging systems plus long wave radar systems, short wave 'stealth' is an absolute load of bullshit. Notice how no one else really gives a shit - because they don't feel the usefulness is worth the high cost. They'd rather have 10 planes vs 2 SW stealth planes.

All the stealth in the world and a cheap microbolometer array with some decent 'glass' can spot it from kilometres away... all mounted on a on a rapidly approaching missile.

 

[Gorankar]

Just curious, are you lying on purpose hoping no one will call you on it, or are you unintentionally obtuse? Lets break down the lies, even though I'm sure you won't apologize:

Look at your own source:

Trump: "We are better off if Japan and South Korea protect themselves."
Host: "You are fine with them having nuclear weapons?"
Trump: "No, not nuclear weapons, but they have to protect themselves."

Trump is referring to the fact that we pay for the military protection of South Korea and Japan, and Trump wants those allies to either pay for American protection fully, or to protect themselves. Either way, they shouldn't be getting a free ride at this point in 2016, and either option are viable, which he has repeated and is a logical approach that I agree with fully.

Second lie:

Look at your own source again:

Host: "Can the members of Nato count on the United States to come to their military aid if attacked by Russia?"
Trump: "Have they fulfilled their obligation to us? If they fulfill their obligation to us, the answer is yes."

What does Trump mean by that? Nato members are getting free US protection without paying the minimum amount they are required to in the treaty. If they are in violation of the treaty, then the US does not need to abide by that treaty. This is common sense, and again the goal is the same as with South Korea and Japan. Trump wants them to PAY their fair share.

Since most NATO members have not kept up their end of the bargain it would mean they would be on their own. It must be nice to not have to spend money on national defense.

Which NATO members are not pulling their weight?

 

[Skripka]

The Pentagon Wars is a perfect movie to explain exactly why government overspending of defense exists.

Cutting back the military is not the answer...smarter spending with actual checks and balances is the answer.

Yes it is. We spend hundreds of billions of USD on military bases in countries that are our allies, on continents full of our allies. Unless there's an active military front in the UK or Germany or Spain or Italy.... etc..... that I don't know of. Why do we even have FIVE branches of military with massive equipment and capability overlap nevermind duplicative overlap? Why do we have Marines AND an Army? Why have naval aviators and Air Force aviators and marine aviators when they do fundamentally the same thing? Our military is a gigantic bloated pig of bureaucracy that was NEVER made the way it was intentionally or with forethought.

When "Marines" proper were boarding troops aboard Tall Ships, and the Army had cannons and horses it made sense. That was back when Ships of the Line were the primary expression of naval power, which ceased being a long time ago.




Folks are too busy looking at the forest to notice the trees....instead of going "well that is what happens when you want an airframe with 5 variants for 5 service"....they should be asking....why the hell do we need different aircraft for 5 services....and why do we have 5 services? The military of the USA was always about penis measuring for bureaucratic importance and appropriations---NOT about sound and reasoned bang for the buck.

 

[firas]

Or they just love to hate.

Muslims hate gays (thrown off buildings), women (oppression, rape), western culture (kaboom, like just happened again), atheists (jailed or put to death in Egypt), buddhists (Thailand suffers constant attacks from Muslims on the Southern border), hindus (see Pakistan/India conflicts), other muslims... there's a trend.

Of course people will justify this escalating jihad, saying that the Europeans launched the crusades so everyone is equally bad, ignoring history.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, so IMO get out of the middle-east, wall around it, and practice a policy of defense and containment to protect Western civilization and focus resources on technological advancement and trade to increase per capita GDP and quality of life.

do you know that the number of Muslims in either Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh alone is more than the total population in all these combined: Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, UAE, Jordan, Palestibe, Lebanon, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain (~150 million).

do you know that you will find the opposite of the information you mentioned in any of these countries constitutions, culture, TV channels, etc. even in KSA the "sharia" law is mostly on paper, and as Ieldra mentioned the royal family is not really religious.

all I'm saying is, don't throw the classic list of Islam quotes (that always has rape lol) when talking about "ARABS" or "MIDDLE EASTERNS" because they're completely different. though yes, they tend to suddenly become muslims when shit hits the fan, just like when Sadam, who I'm sure never knew about the "thrown off buildings" thing you mentioned said some "Islamic words" when he was on the hang rope.

What I've learned about the middle-east is that secular dictators are good.

bags of rotten money in bathrooms was found in Ben Ali (president of Tunisia) palace after he was thrown, similar crazy things was found about Mubarak of eygypt, Saddam, insane Gadhafi, Ali Saleh of Yemen, etc. some of them and some of the current others literally cannot speak the native language (lots of funny youtube videos about this).

dictator, non-muslim, , black, from the moon, people in the middle east just like anywhere else needs a good regime and after that they'll go out to the street to protect it just like what happened in Turkey a while back, not to kill each other and scream death to America (the evil scarecrow that corrupt regimes use to tell their people they're saving them from).

 

[Dr. Righteous]

I feel like for a brand new innovative aircraft line some teething issues are pretty much to be expected.

Even the fleet of venerable F16's probably had issues back when they were first launched.

True, first prototypes crashed. The criticism was "damn thing won't even fly" Same with the F104 Starfighter, F15 Eagle, and the F4 Phantom. All now are legendary aircraft. While cutting edge for their time none are as technically advanced as the JSF.

 

[verbatim81973]

This should definitely be a cost shouldered by the manufacturer.

+1

 

[Ducman69]

do you know that the number of Muslims in either Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh alone is more than the total population in all these combined: Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, UAE, Jordan, Palestibe, Lebanon, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain (~150 million).

Why does that matter? And regarding rape, you realize the international incident where Chinese news warned its citizenry (and defended it) about the Pakistani rape gangs in the UK and to avoid certain areas because of it, which then sparked controversy because we found out that while the Chinese were certainly politically incorrect in being so blunt about it, there actually ARE hundreds of rapes that were suppressed by the local government and police department, out of fear that acknowledging that there were Muslim rape gangs would cause too much political controversy and accusations of Islamaphobia.

This Pew data addresses the mainstream beliefs of "moderate Islam" globally. And yes, I have been to Malaysia (lived in Singapore), and do know about their constant attacks on Buddhists on their Northern border to assert Islamic dominance. They leave Singapore alone only because Singapore is run by a dictatorship (they say there are elections, but its a sham, the same party has been in power for many many decades), with craptons of secret plains clothes police and its illegal to assemble more than five people without a government permit, so they are able to ensure order. As was said, dictatorships keep the violent Islamists in check to maintain the peace, even though its obviously not ideal. Western democracies simply aren't able to deal with the threat, as evidenced in Europe with the unceasing attacks.

bags of rotten money in bathrooms was found in Ben Ali (president of Tunisia) palace after he was thrown, similar crazy things was found about Mubarak of eygypt, Saddam, insane Gadhafi, Ali Saleh of Yemen, etc. some of them and some of the current others literally cannot speak the native language (lots of funny youtube videos about this).

Well, duh, dictators act selfishly and do bad things, and Saddam was no exception (more his family than anything else), but point was that Western powers overthrowing these guys only makes a bad situation worse.

Sometimes you have to pick the lesser evil, and recognize that a hands off policy is better for everyone. Not all cultures are ready for democracy.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Since most NATO members have not kept up their end of the bargain it would mean they would be on their own. It must be nice to not have to spend money on national defense.

Which NATO members are not pulling their weight?

Exactly. This is a real problem, and we should be pressuring non-compliance NATO members to do their part and pay their share.

Unilaterally failing to support them, or giving our foes the impression that our support is in question would be extremely detrimental to the alliance and likely completely end it's viability all together. It'd only value is as a deterrent, because of the impression that we will all come to each other's aid in a time of need. If that impression disappears, the NATO alliance isn't worth the paper it's written on, and as such is void.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

To the poster with 15 posts saying the capabilities are unrivalled, tell that to an A10 which has a far longer loiter time, far higher weapon load and survivability than an F35 for ground attack missions, which lets face it, are the main use of airpower today. We are never going to see WW3 because the jewry/bankers who started WW2 shat bricks when that nearly ran out of control and destroyed their own back yard.
Not to mention WW3 would bring out the real weapons, quantum/scalar EM systems, which make most conventional systems and nuclear weapons absolute paper weights.

In a time of increasingly effective and capable infrared imaging systems plus long wave radar systems, short wave 'stealth' is an absolute load of bullshit. Notice how no one else really gives a shit - because they don't feel the usefulness is worth the high cost. They'd rather have 10 planes vs 2 SW stealth planes.

All the stealth in the world and a cheap microbolometer array with some decent 'glass' can spot it from kilometres away... all mounted on a on a rapidly approaching missile.

The A10's and AC130's are definitely much more effective at local air to ground bombardment, which is most of what we do these days.

If you ever have to approach from a distance - however - having faster capabilities to cover a long distance, get in, strike, and get out before the target moves is important though.

You could steadily envision a circumstance where a tiff with countries in the region means we lose access to an airbase and have to approach from a more distant air Base or carrier group.

That, and unless you have effectively taken out any real surface to air defenses and have already established air superiority, the likes of A10's or an AC130's are sitting ducks.

 

[ColHomer]

Hey, that looks like fun! I want to make up stuff too. Uhmmm, coconuts are mammals because they have hair and produce milk. True fact!

Put down the Huffington Post, and step away from the internet... *facepalm*

Nice, just call everyone a liberal that is anti-Trump that doesn't make you look biased at all.... I didn't make it up look it up he said those things, those words came out of his mouth.. All the Trump supporters can go straight to the "your a liberal" card all they want but it will never change the fact that Trump is unqualified and lacks the basic temperament to be President of this country. Just because liberal Clinton supporters say it too doesn't make it any less true. Oh and just for the record Hills Clinton should probably be in jail.... Welcome to presidential politics in 2016.

 

[westrock2000]

I'm by no means an expert, but why not just make a stealth drone f35? Wouldn't that be cheaper? Since it communicates with installations on land for strikes and doesnt even have to use the on board weapons...

Who needs planes at all?

Kinetic bombardment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Nice, just call everyone a liberal that is anti-Trump that doesn't make you look biased at all.... I didn't make it up look it up he said those things, those words came out of his mouth.. All the Trump supporters can go straight to the "your a liberal" card all they want but it will never change the fact that Trump is unqualified and lacks the basic temperament to be President of this country. Just because liberal Clinton supporters say it too doesn't make it any less true. Oh and just for the record Hills Clinton should probably be in jail.... Welcome to presidential politics in 2016.

I guess Glenn Beck is a liberal now

 

[ColHomer]

Just curious, are you lying on purpose hoping no one will call you on it, or are you unintentionally obtuse? Lets break down the lies, even though I'm sure you won't apologize:

Look at your own source:

Trump: "We are better off if Japan and South Korea protect themselves."
Host: "You are fine with them having nuclear weapons?"
Trump: "No, not nuclear weapons, but they have to protect themselves."

Trump is referring to the fact that we pay for the military protection of South Korea and Japan, and Trump wants those allies to either pay for American protection fully, or to protect themselves. Either way, they shouldn't be getting a free ride at this point in 2016, and either option are viable, which he has repeated and is a logical approach that I agree with fully.

Second lie:

Look at your own source again:

Host: "Can the members of Nato count on the United States to come to their military aid if attacked by Russia?"
Trump: "Have they fulfilled their obligation to us? If they fulfill their obligation to us, the answer is yes."

What does Trump mean by that? Nato members are getting free US protection without paying the minimum amount they are required to in the treaty. If they are in violation of the treaty, then the US does not need to abide by that treaty. This is common sense, and again the goal is the same as with South Korea and Japan. Trump wants them to PAY their fair share.

Here is the problem with quoting Trump from one source, sure he said it this way here but he sure didn't say it that same way days or even hours earlier... But go ahead keep defending a Billionaire that thought it was a good idea to bilk poor people out of tens of thousands of dollars. Or is Trump University a vast left wing conspiracy too? Look it up you might be surprised....

 

[ColHomer]

I guess Glenn Beck is a liberal now

I know right! Again I'm not a liberal but wasn't a big Glenn Beck fan because of some of his crazy theories, but lately that guy is making a lot of sense.... Watch if Trump loses, and he could very well win, but if he loses don't be surprised if we see Trump TV shortly after...

 

[Ducman69]

Here is the problem with quoting Trump from one source, sure he said it this way here but he sure didn't say it that same way days or even hours earlier... But go ahead keep defending a Billionaire that thought it was a good idea to bilk poor people out of tens of thousands of dollars. Or is Trump University a vast left wing conspiracy too? Look it up you might be surprised....

The source is the only one I am aware of, and I follow the God Emperor Trump (praise be His name, in KEK we trust) religiously. It is very unlikely I have missed a speech or interview, and that is the only one where MSM opponents created a headline that was not supported by their actual interview, hoping that some people would be too lazy to actually hear what he said and just read the headline and get outraged... which is what I bet you did, and you won't find a mythical source you insist exists.

And yes, I am intimately familiar with Trump university, and there is no wrongdoing found. The timing of the litigation was very suspect, and the background proves its a nonsensical case:

• Former student Tarla Makaeff, the original plaintiff in the litigation, not only completed multiple surveys rating Trump University’s three-day seminar “excellent” in every category, but also praised Trump University’s mentorship program in a glowing 5 plus minute video testimonial. When asked “how could Trump University help to meet [her] goals”, she simply stated “[c]ontinue to offer great classes.” Once the plaintiffs’ lawyers realized how disastrous a witness she was, they asked to have her removed from the case. Over my lawyers’ objections, the judge granted the plaintiffs’ motion, but allowed the case to continue.

• Art Cohen, a lead plaintiffs in the litigation, completed a survey in which he not only rated Trump University’s three-day seminar “excellent” in virtually every category, but went so far as to indicate that he would “attend another Trump University seminar” and even “recommend Trump University seminars to a friend.” When asked how Trump University could improve the seminar, Mr. Cohen’s only suggestion was to “[h]ave lunch sandwiches brought in” and make the lunch break 45 minutes.
  
  
• Former student Bob Giullo, who has been critical of Trump University in numerous interviews and negative advertisements from my political opponents, also expressed his satisfaction, rating Trump University’s programs “excellent” in every category. When asked how Trump University could improve its programs, Mr. Giullo simply asked that students be provided “more comfortable chairs.”

Trump University had a generous full refund policy, and an over 98% positive feedback rating on surveys, which is above the industry average. Here are the facts: Home Page

Any more FUD inventions you want to spread, or are you done now?

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

The source is the only one I am aware of, and I follow the God Emperor Trump (praise be His name, in KEK we trust) religiously. It is very unlikely I have missed a speech or interview, and that is the only one where MSM opponents created a headline that was not supported by their actual interview, hoping that some people would be too lazy to actually hear what he said and just read the headline and get outraged... which is what I bet you did, and you won't find a mythical source you insist exists.

And yes, I am intimately familiar with Trump university, and there is no wrongdoing found. The timing of the litigation was very suspect, and the background proves its a nonsensical case:

Trump University had a generous full refund policy, and an over 98% positive feedback rating on surveys, which is above the industry average. Here are the facts: Home Page

Any more FUD inventions you want to spread, or are you done now?

Except the review scores were optioned through coersion and intimidation...

That 98% means absolutely nothing when the instructor who will be grading you is breathing down your neck and looking over your shoulder while you are filling it out.

 

[NKD]

I'm sure we did, the question is if it was fratricide, or another attempt by the Obama administration to spark a war with Russia.

And its so ironic, as the same people that seem to be doing everything they can to go to war with the world's second largest military super-power, Russia, are the ones claiming Trump will start WW3 when Trump is the one talking about cooperation against mutual enemies like ISIS. *shakes head*

I'm just trying to understand how we can benefit from making Russia our enemy, and can't think of a downside of working with Russia on shared interests... Hopefully Hillary doesn't win, and we won't have to worry about the former.

intentionally going to war with russia? LMAO wtf. So Trump will go to bed with russia but blow up the entire world? Call out japan and tell all our allies to fuck off, somehow that is good?

I think its delusional thinking that Obama secretly wants to go to war with russia after sending kerry to negotiate a cease fire for humanitarian efforts? This is where conspiracies are born, when people cook up random shit that is not there.