Air Force Grounds F-35 Joint Strike Fighters Due To Cooling Line Flaw

[Megalith]

The drama for the Lightning II multirole fighter continues as a “supply chain manufacturing quality issue” has resulted in deteriorating insulation of cooling lines inside of fuel tanks. The problem affects 52 of the fighters, 42 of which are still in production. I don’t even want to see the program’s final costs.

…the Air Force on Friday announced that it was temporarily grounding 15 of the jets after it discovered that insulation was “peeling and crumbling” inside the fuel tanks. The setback is the latest for the $400 billion system, the most expensive in the history of the Pentagon. The problem comes as the program, which for years faced billions of dollars in cost overruns and significant schedule delays, had begun to make strides. Last year, the Marine Corps had declared its variant ready for combat.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Meanwhile the US military (government) keeps awarding contracts and not penalizing the few companies that make these beasts, just keep writing out blank checks for them to fill in the zeroes

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I feel like for a brand new innovative aircraft line some teething issues are pretty much to be expected.

Even the fleet of venerable F16's probably had issues back when they were first launched.

 

[ColHomer]

Problems like this one during the F-35s production cycle is probably a big reason that the Boeing/Lockheed team lost the LRSB contract.

 

[atp1916]

I feel like for a brand new innovative aircraft line some teething issues are pretty much to be expected.

Even the fleet of venerable F16's probably had issues back when they were first launched.

Totally agree, but the "baseline model" of the F16 (for example) also didn't have to implement (from the get-go) air frame design interchangeability to suite edge-case encompassing mission-centric requirements for 3 different branches of the armed forces.

 

[NExUS1g]

I feel like these stories only exist because of left-wing, anti-war, anti-defense-budget agendas. These are really non-stories. Even the F-15 (inagruably the world's most accomplished fighter in theaters of war) has gotten grounded in recent memory because there was at least one of case of it just falling apart in mid air. I think it was one of the Japanese (F-15J) that had the incident. This kind of thing is what got the F-22 cancelled, when it shouldn't have been, because of sensationalism of minor issues and conflated stories of its expense based on the entire development cost versus the planes which were made to that point which was a dishonest representation of the cost of the plane.

 

[ColHomer]

I feel like these stories only exist because of left-wing, anti-war, anti-defense-budget agendas. These are really non-stories. Even the F-15 (inagruably the world's most accomplished fighter in theaters of war) has gotten grounded in recent memory because there was at least one of case of it just falling apart in mid air. I think it was one of the Japanese (F-15J) that had the incident. This kind of thing is what got the F-22 cancelled, when it shouldn't have been, because of sensationalism of minor issues and conflated stories of its expense based on the entire development cost versus the planes which were made to that point which was a dishonest representation of the cost of the plane.

This is an oversimplification of the issue. The main problem is the way that the government awards these contracts and that the quoted price during the competition phase is weighted so heavily. If you look into the history of the F-22 you will see that this is one of the big reasons it is considered a failure as well as that is was massively mismanaged from the get go. In the aerospace world the F-22 isn't one of the programs anyone would point to as a political pawn, it has a bad rap for good reasons.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

How many years has this been now?

 

[c3k]

Time = $$$.

The aircraft design, development, production and fielding timelines are outrageous. What good is a great design if only a handful get produced, and that only after the design is twenty years old? It profits the few prime contractors capable of this tech and those generals and bureaucrats involved in the contract. Literal careers ride on single weapon systems. I won't even start on revolving doors.

Compare the current time required from fighter design to full (FULL) combat capability to that of 1945, 1965, and 1985. (Yes, modern is more capable, but see above about the utility of a few dozen 20 year old fighters.)

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I feel like these stories only exist because of left-wing, anti-war, anti-defense-budget agendas. These are really non-stories. Even the F-15 (inagruably the world's most accomplished fighter in theaters of war) has gotten grounded in recent memory because there was at least one of case of it just falling apart in mid air. I think it was one of the Japanese (F-15J) that had the incident. This kind of thing is what got the F-22 cancelled, when it shouldn't have been, because of sensationalism of minor issues and conflated stories of its expense based on the entire development cost versus the planes which were made to that point which was a dishonest representation of the cost of the plane.

Except that the Bush administration and Donald Runsfeld wanted to end F22 production as well.

It had more to do with the perception that in a post Soviet Union world, the F22 was an excellent weapon to fight an adversary that no longer existed, and that it was not relevant in more modern conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Production issues and costs - of course - figured in, but in the grand d scheme of things it was simply an assessment by the DoD that there were entered ways to spend the same.money on the military than the F22 program given the threats we face in the modern world.

 

[RottenMutt]

This was a simple problem of insulation coming off the PAO lines which route thru the fuel tanks. PAO is a liquid cooling loop similar to what we use to cool our computers. This was a supplier problem, NOT a engineering problem. The JSF program has been tremendously successful and its capability is unmatched.
Remember the next world war will be over in a week, we will not have the opportunity to develop weapon systems.
Temporary Suspension of Flight Operations Announced for a Limited Number of F-35A Aircraft | F-35 Lightning II

 

[Ducman69]

Remember the next world war will be over in a week, we will not have the opportunity to develop weapon systems.

World war with which country? Right now, we spend money on new military technologies that we sell to other countries, who, like Israel, then decide they can make a quick buck by selling the plans to China and others to then copy.

Its like the TU-4 all over again.

And in the information age, do we really think that the Russians or Chinese would be coming up with secret new fighters without us even having a clue about it? You could spend a tiny fraction on espionage just to make sure they aren't developing an F-35 type aircraft, than creating your own to distribute around the world and have copied.

Otherwise, you're inventing a solution to a non-existent problem, and we could have far greater useful military projection power investing those funds in more numerous existing tech, like say a bigass fleet of AC-130s so that we have 24x7 ground support in theaters where air superiority is a non-issue like fighting ISIS.

 

[westrock2000]

Today Syria accused the United States of doing an air raid on Syrian forces for the benefit of ISIL. Considering that ISIL does not have an Air Force and jets did in fact bomb the Syrian Army, that doesn't leave too many places to point the finger.

They might want to get those jets back in service jjuuuuuuust in case.

 

[Ducman69]

Today Syria accused the United States of doing an air raid on Syrian forces for the benefit of ISIL. Considering that ISIL does not have an Air Force and jets did in fact bomb the Syrian Army, that doesn't leave too many places to point the finger.

They might want to get those jets back in service jjuuuuuuust in case.

I'm sure we did, the question is if it was fratricide, or another attempt by the Obama administration to spark a war with Russia.

And its so ironic, as the same people that seem to be doing everything they can to go to war with the world's second largest military super-power, Russia, are the ones claiming Trump will start WW3 when Trump is the one talking about cooperation against mutual enemies like ISIS. *shakes head*

I'm just trying to understand how we can benefit from making Russia our enemy, and can't think of a downside of working with Russia on shared interests... Hopefully Hillary doesn't win, and we won't have to worry about the former.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I'm sure we did, the question is if it was fratricide, or another attempt by the Obama administration to spark a war with Russia.

And its so ironic, as the same people that seem to be doing everything they can to go to war with the world's second largest military super-power, Russia, are the ones claiming Trump will start WW3 when Trump is the one talking about cooperation against mutual enemies like ISIS. *shakes head*

I'm just trying to understand how we can benefit from making Russia our enemy, and can't think of a downside of working with Russia on shared interests... Hopefully Hillary doesn't win, and we won't have to worry about the former.

It might have been a message to the Russians. If you can have "accidents" and hit moderate rebel groups we support in the area, we can have "accidents" too.

IMHO, I'd be all for us intentionally taking out Assad's helicopter and air bases.

The fact that Assad is still in power is sickening after all the gruesome shit his forces have done.

 

[Motley]

We don't need a $40 Billon F35 fighter jets when our enemies are hiding under rocks.

 

[xX_Jack_Carver_Xx]

The Future .... is not rocket science.

A fleet of unmanned Fighter/Bombers, which can out perform anything with a human pilot, go where ever because we made plenty, they are cheaper, and we don't give a shit if it ends up shot down.

Especially if you make smaller ones, where 500-1000 fit on an Aircraft carrier, and 780's can be built to act as Airborne Aircraft Carriers, packing 50 unmanned fighters to reach into any country on Earth.

And even smaller ones, brought along with the Armored and Infantry divisions that take off from Trucks on the battle field. Smaller cheaper and unmanned is the Future ... not F35's

 

[EvilWays]

This was a simple problem of insulation coming off the PAO lines which route thru the fuel tanks. PAO is a liquid cooling loop similar to what we use to cool our computers. This was a supplier problem, NOT a engineering problem. The JSF program has been tremendously successful and its capability is unmatched.
Remember the next world war will be over in a week, we will not have the opportunity to develop weapon systems.
Temporary Suspension of Flight Operations Announced for a Limited Number of F-35A Aircraft | F-35 Lightning II

JSF program, in regards to the F-35, sucessful my ass. The program has been filled with issues, over budget and years behind schedule with the current software package not making the aircraft anywhere near fully combat ready and dealing with grounding aircraft due to QC issues, performance across the board is "meh" and the amount of stuffed requirements from each branch under the JSF umbrella for this aircraft makes this a dud. These are the same morons who killed off the SR-71 and are continuously trying to kill off the A-10. Nothing like hearing some Marines bitch about the F-35Bs (the joys of contract work at the base the Marines train on the F-35Bs). A multi-role JSF aircraft is a pipedream.

 

[nysmo]

The F-35 is an upgraded F-16 with some stealth like characteristics and thats it. There is nothing particularly useful about this plane that could not have been incorporated into existing planes. The F-15/16/18 are all perfect war birds for every operation we need. The F-22 was designed to counter possible future attack jets from Russia. Now that that is basically a non-issue this idea to port elements of the F-22 into the F-35 is just a waste of time. We dont need a cheaper, slower, less stealthy version of the F-22. We should have one super jet and the rest are just workhorses for their respective branch of the military. Too much secret handshaking from members of the military industrial complex to keep their businesses printing money by building unnecessary weapons.

 

[c3k]

USAF T-X program (new trainer) has been in gestation since the early '80s. The current dual fleet of T-37 and T-38 has been in operation for almost 50 years. So...about 30 years ago, the USAF said it needed new trainers. Simple aircraft with benign flight characteristics. This is NOT rocket science. (Okay, it is aeronautical science. ) Now, in 2016, a new RFP is being addressed by 4 contractor teams. The planned "win" date is set for sometime in 2017, after a flyoff and some other tests. (Like, who slips the most cash under the table???) Let's say they choose the next T series plane in 2018. After all, the losers always contest the award and the whole process gets delayed and jammed.

So...winning design chosen in mid 2018. The PLANNED operational date is....2024. WTF?!?!

Why does it take 7 years (based on planned win announcement of 2017 and planned operation date of 2024) to produce and field these??? These are SIMPLE aircraft. (Oh, and, we all know that 2024 won't happen. It'll probably be closer to 2026-2028.)

Just another in a long list of ripoffs.

The F-35 is magnitudes worse. Chilled fuel? Check. Why? Because, as hinted at in the above article, the fuel acts as a heat dump to cool all the electronics. (This minimizes openings for airflow, an important aspect of stealth.)

This single biggest driver should be fielding a system within a tight schedule. There's no reason a brand-new fighter cannot be designed, developed, and fielded within 5 years.

A training aircraft should take no more than 2 years from design to fielding.

Time = $$$

 

[westrock2000]

This single biggest driver should be fielding a system within a tight schedule. There's no reason a brand-new fighter cannot be designed, developed, and fielded within 5 years.

Is there a precident to that? I know in WW2 we saw that kind of progress (The Mitsubishi Zero was considered top of the line in 1940 and was archaic by 1943). But going into the jet age, I'm not seeing that kind of progress. Not even the simpler fighters like the F4 or A-10. Have Blue maybe fits that time frame, but your talking the golden era of black budget, literally no holds barred.

My only hope is that there still is a "skunk works" and that the JSF really isn't the best thing we got. Not because the JSF is a bad airplane, but because it's not badass like what Skunk Works has put out throughout the decades.

 

[dgingeri]

This should definitely be a cost shouldered by the manufacturer.

 

[Ducman69]

IThe Mitsubishi Zero was considered top of the line in 1940 and was archaic by 1943

Totally different world.

Today its all about electronics and missiles, where aircraft link together and share data along with radar installations on the ground, ships, and air, and whoever sees the other guy first gets to launch his missiles first, well beyond visual range or any need for maneuvers.

You can update electronics packages and missiles without the need for changing the aircraft carrying them, as long as the aircraft has somewhat decent performance.

And this has been true for a LONG time.

For example, in the Israel vs Syria air battle, none of the Syrian jets (that were tremendous performers) ever even saw a single Israeli jet before they were shot down. The Israeli had better radar and better missiles, and that was all it took.

That's why drones are the future, because you don't need crazy dog fighting skills, you just need an aircraft that can fly high and carry the radar and ordinance to deliver on target.

A herd of fifty cheap drones spread out in formation and shooting missiles at identified targets is the way to go, but the air force is fighting this because they would be putting themselves out of a job, and it would require a cultural revolution where the future warrior is a fat half-bald guy in his 40s with orange cheeto fingers guiding and troubleshooting a drone formation from halfway across the world.

We went through the same thing with the introduction of longbows and basic firearms, where the warrior class of swordsmen and knights on horseback were overly expensive and obsolete, when a peasant could take them down from a hundred yards away with cheap projectiles.

 

[Gorankar]

The Future .... is not rocket science.

A fleet of unmanned Fighter/Bombers, which can out perform anything with a human pilot, go where ever because we made plenty, they are cheaper, and we don't give a shit if it ends up shot down.

Especially if you make smaller ones, where 500-1000 fit on an Aircraft carrier, and 780's can be built to act as Airborne Aircraft Carriers, packing 50 unmanned fighters to reach into any country on Earth.

And even smaller ones, brought along with the Armored and Infantry divisions that take off from Trucks on the battle field. Smaller cheaper and unmanned is the Future ... not F35's

It very well may be among the last of the advanced manned multi-role fighters. I think we still need it currently, but in 10-20 years? Prolly not. They will be flown autonomously, with the occasional as needed manually controlled flight by geeks in bunkers.

 

[westrock2000]

It might have been a message to the Russians. If you can have "accidents" and hit moderate rebel groups we support in the area, we can have "accidents" too.

IMHO, I'd be all for us intentionally taking out Assad's helicopter and air bases.

The fact that Assad is still in power is sickening after all the gruesome shit his forces have done.

Syria is a sovereign nation and they are allies with Russia. They can bomb and attack whoever they want within their borders, just as we can within ours. If we want to "remove" Assad from power through the use of arms, then we need to declare war on them. Blowing up someones military is not a "strong message", it's an act or war.

"Gruesome shit" is par the course for that part of the world (and most parts of the world). Unless you plan on taking out half the countries in the world, you will have to find a better reason. I would assume that you are referring to the use of Sarin gas, but there still isn't any conclusive proof on who did it. When you are talking about war crimes and invasions, you need to be conclusive. On the other hand I do not see the White House or State Department condemning Saudi Arabia for dropping American made cluster bombs on Yemenese towns. Again, this goes back to par the course for that part of the world.

 

[westrock2000]

It very well may be among the last of the advanced manned multi-role fighters. I think we still need it currently, but in 10-20 years? Prolly not. They will be flown autonomously, with the occasional as needed manually controlled flight by geeks in bunkers.

Hopefully within my lifetime

 

[Ieldra]

Syria is a sovereign nation and they are allies with Russia. They can bomb and attack whoever they want within their borders, just as we can within ours. If we want to "remove" Assad from power through the use of arms, then we need to declare war on them. Blowing up someones military is not a "strong message", it's an act or war.

"Gruesome shit" is par the course for that part of the world (and most parts of the world). Unless you plan on taking out half the countries in the world, you will have to find a better reason. I would assume that you are referring to the use of Sarin gas, but there still isn't any conclusive proof on who did it. When you are talking about war crimes and invasions, you need to be conclusive. On the other hand I do not see the White House or State Department condemning Saudi Arabia for dropping American made cluster bombs on Yemenese towns. Again, this goes back to par the course for that part of the world.

As culturally "Western" 20 something year old who grew up in the middle east, I would strongly advise against bombing anyone at all. 60 years of western meddling have brought nothing but more problems; stop backing saudi arabia, stop backing israel,

 

[Ducman69]

As culturally "Western" 20 something year old who grew up in the middle east, I would strongly advise against bombing anyone at all. 60 years of western meddling have brought nothing but more problems; stop backing saudi arabia, stop backing israel,

With shale oil, there's really no need to. We have massive global overproduction of oil, and the only thing stabilizing gas prices somewhat is an increase in taxes.

And not only does the US, once the world's largest oil importer and now an oil exporter, have massive amounts of shale reserves, but China is said to have nearly as much. Once China becomes an oil exporter as well, supply will exceed demand like never before, especially if European countries are starting to mandate entire electric vehicle fleets.

So stay out of the middle-east, because we're not longer dependent on their resources, and adopt a policy of containment and quarantine.

What I've learned about the middle-east is that secular dictators are good.

The only thing that kept the violent Islamists in check in Iraq for example was Saddam. Same in Egypt and elsewhere. Remove that Muslim oppression, and you end up with ISIS, The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, and the dozens of other names that these religious zealots go by. Iran in the 70s for example was quite a liberal enlightened place, but Islamism spread and look at the state of Iran now. Something to think about the next time we think its going to somehow help the region to remove a cruel dictator that is oppressing the Muslim population.

 

[RottenMutt]

A training aircraft should take no more than 2 years from design to fielding.

Really!
Lets assume the configuration is known. Design the structure and computer systems, design and order forging, design and build detail tooling, design and build assembly tooling, build aircraft, complete durability and static testing, complete air worthiness testing and avionics testing.

Back to JSF, try penetrating Soviet s-400 air defenses without stealth! I volunteer all of you naysayers children to fly f16,15, and 18's to penetrate Russian airspace.

 

[RottenMutt]

Problem with the Middle East is that there are many Muslim religions, they hate each other more then they dislike western civilization.

 

[Ducman69]

Problem with the Middle East is that there are many Muslim religions, they hate each other more then they dislike western civilization.

Or they just love to hate.

Muslims hate gays (thrown off buildings), women (oppression, rape), western culture (kaboom, like just happened again), atheists (jailed or put to death in Egypt), buddhists (Thailand suffers constant attacks from Muslims on the Southern border), hindus (see Pakistan/India conflicts), other muslims... there's a trend.

Of course people will justify this escalating jihad, saying that the Europeans launched the crusades so everyone is equally bad, ignoring history.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, so IMO get out of the middle-east, wall around it, and practice a policy of defense and containment to protect Western civilization and focus resources on technological advancement and trade to increase per capita GDP and quality of life.

 

[Ieldra]

With shale oil, there's really no need to. We have massive global overproduction of oil, and the only thing stabilizing gas prices somewhat is an increase in taxes.

And not only does the US, once the world's largest oil importer and now an oil exporter, have massive amounts of shale reserves, but China is said to have nearly as much. Once China becomes an oil exporter as well, supply will exceed demand like never before, especially if European countries are starting to mandate entire electric vehicle fleets.

So stay out of the middle-east, because we're not longer dependent on their resources, and adopt a policy of containment and quarantine.

What I've learned about the middle-east is that secular dictators are good.

The only thing that kept the violent Islamists in check in Iraq for example was Saddam. Same in Egypt and elsewhere. Remove that Muslim oppression, and you end up with ISIS, The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, and the dozens of other names that these religious zealots go by. Iran in the 70s for example was quite a liberal enlightened place, but Islamism spread and look at the state of Iran now. Something to think about the next time we think its going to somehow help the region to remove a cruel dictator that is oppressing the Muslim population.

Lol, the middle east is a clusterfuck and has been for decades, you can't point the finger at ISIS now and say 'see what happened after we removed the dictator', oppression breeds extremism of all kinds. Wahhabist ideology was spread thanks to the wealth and influence of the Saud family as a means of consolidating it's power over the Muslim world, now they are losing control of it, because it's a dangerous game. Don't be fooled into thinking there's anything remotely religious about the Saud family.

To talk about these kind of issues with any kind of depth you need to go back by almost a century...

The middle east is fucked because the population is poor as shit, treated like shit and the youth have absolutely nothing positive to look forward to in their lives.

ISIS was birthed by the remains of Saddam's Baath party.

On the 28th of January 2011, when the police forces 'collapsed' and retreated in the face of protests in Cairo, Egypt prisons were broken into en masses and thousands of prisoners (many religious extremists) escaped.

The fear allowed the military to step in as some kind of heroic savior. Lol. Theatrics, smoke and mirrors man.

Dictators are the root of the problem, and you fucking Americans, as well as us fucking Europeans caused this mess by being fucking hypocritical and supporting these people.

Man some Saudi Prince had a male sex slave he beat to death in an elevator in England I believe.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

As culturally "Western" 20 something year old who grew up in the middle east, I would strongly advise against bombing anyone at all. 60 years of western meddling have brought nothing but more problems; stop backing saudi arabia, stop backing israel,

I'd argue that the problem is that we have traditionally allowed economic and resource considerations, as well as historically our fear of the Communist east, override our values, and have thus allied ourselves with various repressive regimes.

Then when those repressive regimes do things like attack civilians with their army, we are partially responsible for it, unless we speak out in the harshest of terms and thereafter cancel our support if they don't stop.

The fact that we have not more harshly spoken out against Saudi Arabia's strikes on civilians in Yemen, Egypt's new dictatorial rule, Erdogan's political cleansing and mass arrests in Turkey and yes, taken stronger action against Assad's forces after they started attacking civilians is the real problem.

We need to stand of the side of freedom and at the very least not support regimes trying to kill their own people, and stop allying ourselves with repressive regimes.

We need to ally ourselves only with liberal democracies which share our values.

 

[Ieldra]

Or they just love to hate.

Muslims hate gays (thrown off buildings), women (oppression, rape), western culture (kaboom, like just happened again), atheists (jailed or put to death in Egypt), buddhists (Thailand suffers constant attacks from Muslims on the Southern border), hindus (see Pakistan/India conflicts), other muslims... there's a trend.

Of course people will justify this escalating jihad, saying that the Europeans launched the crusades so everyone is equally bad, ignoring history.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, so IMO get out of the middle-east, wall around it, and practice a policy of defense and containment to protect Western civilization and focus resources on technological advancement and trade to increase per capita GDP and quality of life.

Yo, Christians hate gays, or rather the Bible teaches you to hate gays, and treat women as second class citizens, no abortion, blah blah. It's the same shit, the only difference the population in the middle east is royally fucked.

People exploit religion for political gains, and the population is susceptible because they are hopeless and desperate and uneducated.

Isis pays well, did you know that? Sure there are brainwashed kids from Europe going to join them, but the actual Syrians and Iraqis? They get paid, if you don't work your family dies.

Everything you are saying is superficial as hell

 

[Ieldra]

I'd argue that the problem is that we have traditionally allowed economic and resource considerations, as well as historically our fear of the Communist east, override our values, and have thus allied ourselves with various repressive regimes.

Then when those repressive regimes do things like attack civilians with their army, we are partially responsible for it, unless we speak out in the harshest of terms and thereafter to cancel our support if they don't stop.

The fact that we have not more harshly spoken out against Saudi Arabia's strikes on civilians in Yemen, Egypt's new dictatorial rule, Erdogan's political cleansing and mass arrests in Turkey and yes, taken stronger action against Assad's forces after they started attacking civilians is the real problem.

We need to stand of the side of freedom and at the very least not support regimes trying to kill their own people, and stop allying ourselves with repressive regimes.

We need to ally ourselves only with liberal democracies which share our values.

We need to actually support these people, instead of donating weapons build schools for the love of god.

There will always be violence if people are born under this shameful style of government WE support because of our own interests.

An Italian student (who was digging into political shit, honestly he was stupid and careless) was murdered by the state in Egypt.

Italy didn't do shit, they're trying to make it blow over because natural gas extraction contracts.

Fuck these people

 

[Ducman69]

Lol, the middle east is a clusterfuck and has been for decades, you can't point the finger at ISIS now and say 'see what happened after we removed the dictator', oppression breeds extremism of all kinds.

I agree with you that the middle-east has been a backwards place for many many decades, but I am pointing at ISIS as just one example of what happens when a "containment force" (in multiple cases secular dictators) are removed. Lets remove opinion though and look at facts:

List of Islamist terrorist attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the 1980s to 2000, a 20 year period, you have less attacks than you have in a year lately. Clearly you see the exponential curve of Islamic attacks around the world, so something is changing. That change is the "Arab spring", where all around the Muslim world, secular dictators were being overthrown. And if the argument is that without these dictators in place, that Islam would be peaceful and would not be engaging in jihad conquest to exert the influence of the Islamic faith and make people fearful of criticizing Islam, then how do you explain the hundreds of years of history under Muslim theocracies that attacked relentlessly wherever they could reach?

I love how the leftist propaganda machine just calls it "truck attacks" or a "pressure cooker with wires attached" or "ax attacks" and so forth, being very careful not to mention what they all have in common, and keep parroting "the motives of the attacks are as of yet unknown" even when they are shouting "Allah Akbar" during the attack, and even asking if victims are Muslim before killing them and at protests and the like screaming and holding signs up "behead those that insult Islam". I don't know how much clearer a message you can get. My point is, message received, quarantine, and never interact with the Islamic world again and just keep our area safe and secure.

 

[Ieldra]

Man I lived the Egyptian revolution, it was theatrics. The fucking army was literally firing into the air with a big fucking machine gun on an apc throughout the night to 'scare off prisoners and criminals'.

We were fucking shitting ourselves, armed with bats and table legs and crowbar and shit.

They just wanted people to freak the fuck out and accept another police state solution, and it worked in the end

 

[Ieldra]

I agree with you that the middle-east has been a backwards place for many many decades, but I am pointing at ISIS as just one example of what happens when a "containment force" (in multiple cases secular dictators) are removed. Lets remove opinion though and look at facts:

List of Islamist terrorist attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the 1980s to 2000, a 20 year period, you have less attacks than you have in a year lately. Clearly you see the exponential curve of Islamic attacks around the world, so something is changing. That change is the "Arab spring", where all around the Muslim world, secular dictators were being overthrown. And if the argument is that without these dictators in place, that Islam would be peaceful and would not be engaging in jihad conquest to exert the influence of the Islamic faith and make people fearful of criticizing Islam, then how do you explain the hundreds of years of history under Muslim theocracies that attacked relentlessly wherever they could reach?

Okay, but the reason the country explodes after you remove the dictator is because they allow it to explode, plus there are no alternative political parties due to repression during their rule. Look at Mubarak, once he was gone lol, 'revolutionary groups' didn't have a clue what to do next. The only organization with grass roots power was Muslim brotherhood.

Meh, I don't agree with your view at all, but I'd much rather you stay out than keep messing with it.

I guess I'm being pedantic, but jihad conquest is an oxymoron. A war of conquest is not jihad by its very definition, but in my eyes all religions are equally dumb, and they all say the same shit.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I agree with you that the middle-east has been a backwards place for many many decades, but I am pointing at ISIS as just one example of what happens when a "containment force" (in multiple cases secular dictators) are removed. Lets remove opinion though and look at facts:

List of Islamist terrorist attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the 1980s to 2000, a 20 year period, you have less attacks than you have in a year lately. Clearly you see the exponential curve of Islamic attacks around the world, so something is changing. That change is the "Arab spring", where all around the Muslim world, secular dictators were being overthrown. And if the argument is that without these dictators in place, that Islam would be peaceful and would not be engaging in jihad conquest to exert the influence of the Islamic faith and make people fearful of criticizing Islam, then how do you explain the hundreds of years of history under Muslim theocracies that attacked relentlessly wherever they could reach?

I love how the leftist propaganda machine just calls it "truck attacks" or a "pressure cooker with wires attached" or "ax attacks" and so forth, being very careful not to mention what they all have in common, and keep parroting "the motives of the attacks are as of yet unknown" even when they are shouting "Allah Akbar" during the attack, and even asking if victims are Muslim before killing them and at protests and the like screaming and holding signs up "behead those that insult Islam". I don't know how much clearer a message you can get. My point is, message received, quarantine, and never interact with the Islamic world again and just keep our area safe and secure.

You are right. Repressive regimes have been very effective at containing extremists.

Just because something is effective - however - doesn't mean it is right. We can in our right minds celebrate out freedoms while asking large portions of the world to live under dictatorial rule because we need them to contain extremism for us. This is completely unethical.

 

[Skripka]

Really!
Lets assume the configuration is known. Design the structure and computer systems, design and order forging, design and build detail tooling, design and build assembly tooling, build aircraft, complete durability and static testing, complete air worthiness testing and avionics testing.

Back to JSF, try penetrating Soviet s-400 air defenses without stealth! I volunteer all of you naysayers children to fly f16,15, and 18's to penetrate Russian airspace.

Why are Americans still mentally fighting the Cold War?