Ageia's PhysX Needs a Killer App @ [H] Enthusiast

uzor said:
But that's still only considering multiplay. The reason behind the Cellfactor trailer (i.e. lan multiplay with a bunch of people "battling" eachother with junk) is that that truly is the easiest way to demonstrate that kind of physics interaction - no story needed, no special gameplay elements or setup, just stick 4 guys and a pile of crap in a room and let them go at it.

I firmly believe that the "killer app" whatever it is, is going to be first and foremost, a single player experience. As an example, even as simple as it was, who didn't think something along the lines of "Hey, now That's cool!" in HL2 when getting to the part where you have to stack up the bricks on that teeter-totter, or pull the plastic barrels down under that cage to float the ramp for the airskip.

Multiplay will be there, but I believe that it will not come into it's own right at first.

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Actually, it doesn't just apply to multiplayer. If you want a killer app where the different physics really does affect gameplay. Think farcry, HL2 and sniper elite and how much physics affected their gameplay even tho they're just single player.

kraken0698 said:
That's just the thing. With physics, there is that wow factor. If I were to look at someone playing a game that has 20 boulders crashing down a hill and then at someone else who has 10,000+ boulders crashing down the same hill, I would say wow!

The boulders are just one scenario. I mean the possibilites are endless. With fully destructible buildings, vehicles, foliage even terrain. Not to mention liquids, like water, lava etc.

But hey, that's just me. :)
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You saw the cellfactor trailer right? What hardware do you think you'll need to be able to draw all those objects at a decent framerate? The only one's who'll benefit from the PPU are the ones with the uber l33t card. So your target audience is gonna be pretty much only the l33t of the l33t. Minus the PPU, does your friend even have the hardware to draw all that decently? Lets think realistically, what's the average rig of your gaming real life game capable friends? What do you think they'll benefit more from? A new video card, or a PPU?
 
The thing is, graphics have no effect on the PPU, you could have crappy graphics but if you have the PPU, you would see the enhanced physics, no problem.
 
Xipher said:
The thing is, graphics have no effect on the PPU, you could have crappy graphics but if you have the PPU, you would see the enhanced physics, no problem.
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That's just it. The wow factor you show your friends wouldn't be there if you didn't have a video card capable of showing all the 'cool' cell factor physics would you?

If you limit the number of rigid bodies to what an average video card is capable of. The physics calculations needed to make them work wouldn't be much different from software physics.
 
Sly said:
That's just it. The wow factor you show your friends wouldn't be there if you didn't have a video card capable of showing all the 'cool' cell factor physics would you?

If you limit the number of rigid bodies to what an average video card is capable of. The physics calculations needed to make them work wouldn't be much different from software physics.
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What the heck are you talking about? The physics have NO relationship to the GPU with PhyX and Ageias PPU. If the PPU is available, the physics be same weather they have a quad SLI setup or the minimum requirement for the game. The graphics will be effected by this, but that's a completely different subject.

My biggest problem with your post btw, is this
Sly said:
If you limit the number of rigid bodies to what an average video card is capable of.
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The video card doesn't have any thing to do with the rigid bodies, all it cares about is polygons and graphics related shaders, that's it. Up until Ageia, the only thing that limited rigid bodies was system memory and the CPU.

Ok, after thinking a bit more I over simplified the GPUs responsibilities (I forgot about particals as well as a few other features) but it still doesn't have any thing to do with rigid bodies.
 
Purchase price is the primary factor for me. Say I drop $350-$450 for a semi-cutting edge video card, I am certainly not going to turn around and outlay an additional $250 for more "gee whiz". These PPU manufacturers must get the price down to the magic $99-$119 for mass sales that nVidia and ATI currently enjoy.
 
setscrew said:
Purchase price is the primary factor for me. Say I drop $350-$450 for a semi-cutting edge video card, I am certainly not going to turn around and outlay an additional $250 for more "gee whiz". These PPU manufacturers must get the price down to the magic $99-$119 for mass sales that nVidia and ATI currently enjoy.
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They should at least be PCI-E compatible too for those of us that don't have any PCI slots available.
 
Xipher said:
What the heck are you talking about? The physics have NO relationship to the GPU with PhyX and Ageias PPU. If the PPU is available, the physics be same weather they have a quad SLI setup or the minimum requirement for the game. The graphics will be effected by this, but that's a completely different subject.
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It does, the main thing the people here wants to show as an example of a use for PPU is a falling building with thousands of debris falling everywhere. While physics may not necessarily be related to actual gameworld objects. In the examples they keep bringing up, it ALWAYS does.

The video card doesn't have any thing to do with the rigid bodies, all it cares about is polygons and graphics related shaders, that's it. Up until Ageia, the only thing that limited rigid bodies was system memory and the CPU.
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Each particle in that explosion that will show physics WILL HAVE TO BE DRAWN BY THE GPU! As such, in the physics that matters, GPU capability does play a large part.

Do you also have any idea the complexity of a model needed to make a decent animation? You don't actually expect objects to be simple 12 triangle boxes do you? You can't make an irregular shape with just that. Also don't forget that each new object you see flying after an explosion has it's own shader model, bumpmap, textures, etc.

You can't make a flag made up of just two triangles flap in the wind. You can probably make one with 8 double-sided triangles, but you'll need more than that to make it realistic and make a PPU worth it.

Ok, after thinking a bit more I over simplified the GPUs responsibilities (I forgot about particals as well as a few other features) but it still doesn't have any thing to do with rigid bodies.
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A rigidbody is a representation of a nondeformable 3D object for physics computations. Each object you see on your screen is represented as a rigidbody (Mesh for GPU, rigidbodies for PPU). If they're not rigid bodies, and just simple scripted animations, then what's the point of having a PPU?

Oversimplified, yes. But if you count how much of a load that 'simple' physics adds to the video card, you'll realize a single explosion worthy of a physics card can actually more than double the workload of the GPU. Yet, once the explosion subsides, after all the physics are done, the GPU still has to render whatever objects were generated by the explosion.

Please give an example of an actual game situation where you would need a PPU, without stressing the video card, and that a CPU couldn't handle. Something that a bystander the user is showing off to would be able to see the benefit of.
 
Despotes said:
They should at least be PCI-E compatible too for those of us that don't have any PCI slots available.
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Here, here. Prefer a PCIe x1 if that is possible (for those of us using mATX motherboards and a dual slot video cooler).
 
Yes, added objects do add more work for the GPU, but , you can turn the video settings down, and still see the effects of the physics on the game. You could add advanced physics to something like Quake 3, and the inclusion of the accelerator could still impact the players experience.

Come to think of it, that sounds like a fun project :)
 
I do not see the point of buying a ppu (which can apparently improve my gaming performance by taking load of the cpu, and making things look cool) if i subsequantly have to turn down the settings of my SLI system *(which in my opinion is the market for this product, due to their price).

the gpu will most certainly have to render all these new objects, and therefore with the massively ramped up detail on the screen of these cards all textured and bump mapped in order to run it there will be massive frame rate drops.

Moreover, there (in my opinion) is no point in buying this NOW other than the cool factor of having one, due to the fact that no game will have an impact on gameplay with this (like hl2's physics did for example) as so few people will have them that it will not be economical to create specific gameplay set pieces for those with physx cards...
Indeed by the time physx has created a suitably sized market for this product to make it easy for manufacturers to implement gameplay changing features which will affect the game and not merely be ooh look how that smoke is swirling and the water is moving, the engine will be vastly outdated etc. etc.

Finally sli physics, what a joke. have sli, and have one of my super expensive cards just for physics, which will be purely architecture. dum.

In my opinion, physx is a start up company who have rightly so due to extremely clever marketing procedures (i,.e. free engine as opposed to havoks 6 figure one) got a long list of titles on their books. they shall then do one of two things (pure conjecture i know)

1. Sell themselves body and soul to ATI or Nvidia to implement the physx ppu on their card, or even on a motherboard.

2. licence the tech to ati or nvidia.

reason, there is not enough space on a mobo for a ppu and two dual slot coolers and an x-fi soundcard.

However being young the 3d revolution was before my time.

Perhaps all of this conjecture about the ppu was exactly the same as what they said about this strange secondary card that did fully 3d graphics.

of course only time will tell, but i am firmly sitting on the fence for this one, as this is such a new technology, i percieve that early adopters will not be treated well with this tech.

2 cents

f
 
I'm in no way saying this is going to be a sure hit tech. I think it has potential though.
 
freddiepm61 said:
1. Sell themselves body and soul to ATI or Nvidia to implement the physx ppu on their card, or even on a motherboard.
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Interesting you mention motherboards. Ageia talked a little last year about the possibility of adding PhysX to a motherboard, but hasn't said anything on that front for quite some time. However, there's a new article on PC World where Manju Hegde(Ageia's CEO) brought the subject back up.
Hegde says, however, that it might not be long before you can have your PhysX without requiring an add-in board, too. He expects the PhysX chip to find its way directly onto enthusiast motherboards sooner rather than later.
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We know Ageia already has a business partnership with Asus. Could we possibly here about PhysX-equipped Asus motherboards in the future? E3, maybe?
 
Like I said, wait till 2nd gen, when you see what is going to realy happen.
I mean, they have done some genious marketing selling this product now, as there is no market for it. It will do nothing for the next few months, just sit there.

Also, can one overclock these boards
 
I don't think we'll see 2nd gen. I think ATI or nVidia will buy them out. I can't see a PhysX chip being something that is on the motherboard and not replaceable. I don't think we'll be socketing our PhysX chip next to the CPU any time soon either. The only logical place is on the graphics card.

I might buy a 1st gen if they make a PCIe one though.
 
I think it a good idea, however, I usually don't upgrade too often. When I do, I usually replace everything. I'd buy a $300 mobo with a PPU. If I were already wanting to get a PPU, and I could save $100 buying a mobo with a PPU built in instead of two seperate purchases, I'd do it.

If Ageia would get bought out by ati/nvidia, how much would a GPU cost if it had a PhysX chip on board? I know they're using sm3.0 cards for what they are doing now, but that's not quite the same as Ageia's PhysX.
 
freddiepm61 said:
Like I said, wait till 2nd gen, when you see what is going to realy happen.
I mean, they have done some genious marketing selling this product now, as there is no market for it. It will do nothing for the next few months, just sit there.

Also, can one overclock these boards
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????

there are already PPU apps out......limited. yes, but non-existant....no

http://physx.ageia.com/titles.html
 
My thoughts on the PPU on mobo/gpu.

We know that the PPU will be on a much longer development process than your normal motherboard or GPU. I for one do not want to have to replace a perfectly functioning PPU just to replace my mobo or gpu, especially on a gpu with its relatively short enthusiast life span. I put PPU's into the same upgrade category as a high end sound card.
 
Low Roller said:
I think it a good idea, however, I usually don't upgrade too often. When I do, I usually replace everything. I'd buy a $300 mobo with a PPU. If I were already wanting to get a PPU, and I could save $100 buying a mobo with a PPU built in instead of two seperate purchases, I'd do it.

If Ageia would get bought out by ati/nvidia, how much would a GPU cost if it had a PhysX chip on board? I know they're using sm3.0 cards for what they are doing now, but that's not quite the same as Ageia's PhysX.
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This post brings up the real issue at hand. This is like in the pre-pentium days when you had to pony up extra cash for a math co-processor. Eventually, the functionality of that was just added in to the cpu. Why should the physics processor be any different? I don't think there should be a question of whether or not Aegia needs a killer app, but rather whether or not we, the consumer, need one. I certainly don't, having more random crap kicking around in games is the last thing I neeed. Sure, it adds to the realism *some* of the time(I'm sure you don't really notice it during a firefight...), but if I had to choose between playable speeds with less "junk" or a $250 physics co-processor with full "junk" enabled, let's just say I've got better things to spend $250 on. Like a copper and magnet bracelet to cure my cancer.
 
You know, I'd rather add something that would play my games faster than make it look better and possibly slower (seen some tests with the pc version of graw being slower with the physx card). With the latter case, I'd probably end up lowering my graphics thus making the whole physx card moot anyways.

250 bucks for a game to look better and possibly run slower making me lower my graphics settings
250 bucks which puts my rig into SLI mode making it run faster which will allow me to increase detail/graphic settings.

One makes a difference with games designed specifically for it.
The other makes a difference in most games.

For me, this is an obvious choice. The PhysX card does not do enough to be worth 250 bucks. Hell, our Monster 3D from 3dfx was only 50 bucks, but that provided 3D acceleration on top of our 2D card.

Question: Has anyone tried this on an SLI system? I'm reading this article at pc perspective, but they don't list the system specs.
 
Lets face it people Ageia PhysX is the right idea but it has a huge slippery hill to climb. Until it gets it's "killer ap" there is no reason to shell over $250 for one. None at all. Once the games start flooding in that take advantage of it and developers get time to implement things fully it will be very popular but that is months away if not a year away. By then the PhysX 2 card will be right around the corner. I'll get that one :D @ that time (when games actually take advantage of it)

The PhysX card handles much more physics than any current processor could ever dream of and way more than a Dual GPU solution can handle but this means nothing until they are more affordable and there is actually a reason to have one in your pc. I vote wait.

If they come down to $150 I'll be honest, I might bite then :D
 
qkool said:
250 bucks which puts my rig into SLI mode making it run faster which will allow me to increase detail/graphic settings.
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Umm, the best SLI supporting card I can find for under 250 (on newegg), is a 7600 GT, and don't forget, you have to match the GPUs. If you already have a better card, you have to spend more then 250 for the second card)
 
Seems I may have to refute my own statement! I ask "Do we need a killer app?" And for some, the answer may be yes. Not a game, but think of this; As a structural engineer, if you need to load test a building or a bridge(or some other structure), would you not need a highly parallel processing engine to make a simulation like that act in real-time? With that, you could apply arbitrary loads and forces etc and see the changes in real-time. We've all seen the "bridge builder" programs out there, but they don't figure nearly the complexity needed. Talk about a 50-story building and it's a whole 'nother ball game.

Another area I can see the physics card perhaps showing prowess is in fluid-dynamics simluation. The main point is that while there are computers and software to do this sort of thing, they certainly don't cost $250. $250 for games physics is a bit much for me, but maybe this card will find more use in workstation machines?
 
Spewn said:
Seems I may have to refute my own statement! I ask "Do we need a killer app?" And for some, the answer may be yes. Not a game, but think of this; As a structural engineer, if you need to load test a building or a bridge(or some other structure), would you not need a highly parallel processing engine to make a simulation like that act in real-time? With that, you could apply arbitrary loads and forces etc and see the changes in real-time. We've all seen the "bridge builder" programs out there, but they don't figure nearly the complexity needed. Talk about a 50-story building and it's a whole 'nother ball game.

Another area I can see the physics card perhaps showing prowess is in fluid-dynamics simluation. The main point is that while there are computers and software to do this sort of thing, they certainly don't cost $250. $250 for games physics is a bit much for me, but maybe this card will find more use in workstation machines?
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I am sure there is a gazzillion(neat word eh? ;) *L) way to use the PPU for other stuff than gaming.
Most beeing uses that no one has thought of yet as we speak :)

Terra...
 
I think what they need is a way to use it for common applications. Like aqua 2 now you can smack you aim client silly to shut it down and it will move real time.
 
Spewn

The Ageia API for physics, which takes advantage of the PPU, does not come close to a real-world physics simulation. Like all gaming-oriented physics engines, it makes large numbers of approximations in order to effectively simulate multiple interactions.

There are already a lot of different products to simulate real-world physics for builders and architects, including high-fidelity APIs with their own dedicated hardware-- basically specialized supercomputers. They're rather more expensive than $250 for a good reason-- real-world physics are a lot harder to program and simulate than the kind of approximations used in gaming.

Basically, the hardware and software already exist, have existed for a long time, and the Ageia chip is not going to be useful in that regard.
 
Good to know.

In that regard, with the issues that have been raised regarding server speed and lag between clients in multiplayer games, what will this card actually be good for?
 
^^^^^theres a killer app right there.all we need is a full retail version of cellfactor with a good single player campaign and we have ourselves the next hl2 :cool: .then everyone will want a physx card.
 
Mashie; That's one corner of one area. The server has to calculate the physics for all that, no? Could it handle that sort of thing if it was happening all over a Q3A map during a 4on4 or 5on5 even?

On the other hand, if you're implying that it's good for making $250 screenshots, well, I guess I can't argue with that :D
 
RAMMAN said:
^^^^^theres a killer app right there.all we need is a full retail version of cellfactor with a good single player campaign and we have ourselves the next hl2 :cool: .then everyone will want a physx card.
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A bunch of crap flying around in the air doesn't make a game good.
 
Sly said:
Please give an example of an actual game situation where you would need a PPU, without stressing the video card, and that a CPU couldn't handle. Something that a bystander the user is showing off to would be able to see the benefit of.
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There isn't really, at least now how people are thinking that physics are all about. People who believe that physics = eyecandy are going to be very disappointed. You can either have your great graphics or your 100 boxes flying around, pick one because you can't have both. When the latest games come out and people with thier top of the line hardware complain that they can barely eek out 30fps how do you think adding all this debris is going to get rendered? The PPU is going to render it on your screen for you? No, it's not.

People are going to have to realize exactly what physics is. It's an unseen force that affects the world and objects around us. You can't see it; only the results of it. The real benefits of physics will be in things we can't see that affect the way games are played. Everyone loves a good fps, so what would happen if we used physics to do things like realisticlly track the way bullets behave. Things like windage, bullet drop, penetration of surfaces, ricochets. How about being able to throw a grenade that acts like a grenade instead of a rubber ball, realistic behaviour of shrapnel. Smoke grenades that make smoke that's affected by the room it's in, wind, vents, etc and not just static sprites? That will be the real benefit of physics and not gimmicky nonsense like extra boxes or pipes or barrels flying through the air.
 
mashie said:
Well, with 4 bots it's quite interesting because you normally pick out enemies due to motion in a static environment. Here it is anything but static so to see a bot before it "see you" among the flying/moving rubble makes it a lot more difficult than Q3A. If I had more computers with PhysX I would have a LAN party here.

This is a view of 90% of the map.

Regarding need for PPU on the server, quite likely.

The card is also good for $250 videos. :D
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That map would have a REALLY hard time fitting 10(5on5) people. Try showing me a map around the size of "frag like an egyptian" or Map 4 in the RA3 map pack(the castle map, forget what it's called). Sorry, I know you can't because you've only got the tech demo. But that's my point, I'm skeptical because all I've seen are some bad results(GRAW) and a small tech demo(Cell Factor). My question regarding the server requiring a PPU is this; If you imagine a CS map such as Dust 2, and you've got TONS of stacks of boxes everywhere, and you're simulating explosions using particles, at what point will it become too much for the card? You don't have this issue with video because the server doesn't have to render every client's frames, but in the case of server-side object handling, the server is required to track the position, linear and angular velocity of each collidable object. That cellfactor demo is tiny, I'm sure a single PPU could handle it. "Frag like an egyptian"(RA3) would be at least 4 or 5x the size of the map you posted a screenie of.

Something that can fit 16-20 people comfortably, with stuff flying everywhere, and the server NOT crapping out, would be nice to see. Right now, I'm skeptical, and given what we've seen from Aegia I think I have every reason to be. I can only believe what I've seen so far, and what I've seen so far as led me to believe that this is nothing more than a corporate railroad on the way to selling more products.
 
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