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westrock2000
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2005
- Messages
- 9,433
It all started in the mid 90's when a friends older brother was making a killing in what we later called the Dot Com Bubble. He was in his early 20's and bought lots of cool stuff, a Toyota Supra Turbo, a Pentium computer and a pair of big Martin Logans (either SL3's or reQuest's). As an impressionable teenager, they changed my life and my love for music. I told myself I would own a pair of ML speakers someday. Along the way I have owned 2 pair of Magnepan's, mostly because of price. But I always had my eyes set on at least the ML Aerius model for many years. I even came close to getting a pair of Carver Amazing AL-3's at one point which used the Bohlender Graebener ribbons. A beautiful speaker.
Maggies are awesome for the price, but they do have major beaming issues and they are very fragile due to the thinness (tipping over) and cloth covering the membrane (I got 3 small kids). So I sold the maggies a couple years ago. I periodically check on Martin Logan's a couple times a year just to dream and I saw Best Buy was doing a deal where you got a free Dynamo 700 subwoofer with the purchase of the electrostatic speakers. I thought this was too good a deal to pass up, it's not the first time they have done it, but it doesn't happen often. They also were clearancing old Denon recievers, which I had a Denon receiver already and I was impressed with the Audyssey calibration and all inputs to HDMI conversion. I was gonna get the AVR-X3300 on clearance at $699, their system said they had 2 in stock, but they couldn't find them. So the Magnolia manager ended up letting me get the current AVR-X3400h for the same price, $300 off!
They didn't actually have any of the Martin Logan's in stock (not the electrostatic models at least), so I got to play with the receiver for several days on my old set up.
Anyways, the Martin Logans are fantastic. It's a hard price to swallow...I don't know if I will really ever be in a position to drop thousands of dollars on speakers instead of other things, but I figured now was as a good time as any and my wife has been dealing with my dreams for 14 years, so she gave the final approval....she doesn't know much about audio brands, but she has known what Maggies and Martin Logans are for a while
The Dynamo 700 really seals the deal. It feels out the bottom very well. It has wireless capability (came with transmitter too), but I don't think I'll ever use it. It's one of those "micro" subs that are common in the high end now (not quite a Sunfire True sub, but only 1 cubic foot in size). This is a quality sub, not sure if I would pay $700 on my own accord, but I'm very thankful it came with the package, and it makes the Electostatics sound like bonafide full range. They ended the deal the next day after I bought them, so just under the gun. It uses, I believe, what is called in the DIY world a Linkwitz Transform. Martin Logan has some other name for it, but it sounds like a Linkwitz Transform filter, as do many of the high end micro sealed subs. A Linkwitz Transforms amplifies the signal going into the amp at the opposite volume that the subwoofer normally would drop off on the low end due to the size of the enclosure. So it allows for a small tight sealed subwoofer that goes very low. The trade-off is higher power requirements and increased travel (X-max) of the driver.
I did have a unique experience with these speakers. I have used the Audyssey MultiEQ set up on both the previous receiver and this new receiver with no issues. That's where you use an included mic and it measures everything and sets all the levels for you. I got the ML's and sub hooked up and re-calibrated. The Dynamo 700 is connected to the pre-amp outs of the front channels to be a front sub exclusively, I already have a Parts Express subwoofer for the LFE channel. Well I noticed that the stereo image was fucked up. The singer always seemed to come from the left. Familiar with the Maggies beaming, I messed with toe in, but that didn't fix it. I then jacked up the channel level on the right to compensate. The singer still sounded like they were coming from the left, and the right speaker just sounded like it was trying to over power the left. So I scratched my head for a couple days and then I tried the "Pure Direct" mode and suddenly I got dead center imaging. Turns out one of the speakers was shown as 1 foot closer to me in the Audyssey distance settings. One was 9.2 feet and the other was 10.2 feet. I set them both to 9.2 feet and voila, beautiful imaging. I have never had that be a problem before on other speakers. And I know the front left and right have never been matching distance in there before. Not sure if this was an issue with the fast responsiveness of the panel or the dipole doing something different.
Electrostatic's are magic, and they certainly have some drawbacks, but sound ain't one of them. Martin Logans are probably the cheapest entry. Quad and Sanders might be the next most known brands of ESL's and your looking at $5K to $10K easy. I have considered for several years to make my own ESL's, but you have to make them flat, and Martin Logan's big appeal is the curved design (curvilinear) they use to reduce the beaming issue. I didn't see any realistic or practical way to do that in DIY.
Set up as follows:
Front: Martin Logan Electromotion ESL
Center: Martin Logan Motion 4 and Klipsch Reference RC-62ii
I need 2 center channels because the TV is so big if you put a center either above of below, it doesn't sound like it's coming from the mouths, it just sounds like it's coming from above or below. And that horn tweeter is actually amazing for center channel dialog...it is bright, but it works in center channel applications.
Rears: In ceiling, 8" 2-way's, forget the brand actually, but they do their job and aren't easily visible....about 15 feet behind the couch, so it does sound like it's behind and not above.
Reciever: Denon AVR-X3400h
Digital: Denon DVD-2910 HDCD / DVD-Audio / SACD universal player
Video: AppleTV
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-A100 (more for nostalgia, it plays Sega games too! But I can whip out The Matrix if needed)
Multi-Channel Amp: Harmon Kardon PA5800 (this is also about 20 years old...been in continuous usage all that time and refuses to give me problems.....very well made and has 12V trigger).
Ideally I would pull the electrostatics out further from the wall, but 2 feet was about the most I could safely manage before other things like kids start becoming a problem. 2-3 feet was about what I had the Maggies at. It does become VERY obvious if you get too close, like 12". The sound quality becomes very flat as low-mid frequencies get canceled out.
So far my biggest surprise was being able to play this song The Singularity by Big Giant Circles. There is a certain point at 2:37 where every thing I have played it on gets distorted (headphones or speakers). It sounds like clipping. I had considered that the composer actually made it sound like that, but I couldn't imagine a reputable artist doing that. The Martin Logans took it like a pro. No distortion. Not to say other things couldn't do this, but I appreciate benchmarks like that.
I know this is mostly a "headphone" group here, and headphones can be very clear, but they can't emulate the effect of a stereo image with width AND height imaging out in front of you. But they are a hell of a lot cheaper than ESL's (relative) and I can certainly appreciate that.
Thanks for listening to my story, chase your audio dreams!
Maggies are awesome for the price, but they do have major beaming issues and they are very fragile due to the thinness (tipping over) and cloth covering the membrane (I got 3 small kids). So I sold the maggies a couple years ago. I periodically check on Martin Logan's a couple times a year just to dream and I saw Best Buy was doing a deal where you got a free Dynamo 700 subwoofer with the purchase of the electrostatic speakers. I thought this was too good a deal to pass up, it's not the first time they have done it, but it doesn't happen often. They also were clearancing old Denon recievers, which I had a Denon receiver already and I was impressed with the Audyssey calibration and all inputs to HDMI conversion. I was gonna get the AVR-X3300 on clearance at $699, their system said they had 2 in stock, but they couldn't find them. So the Magnolia manager ended up letting me get the current AVR-X3400h for the same price, $300 off!
They didn't actually have any of the Martin Logan's in stock (not the electrostatic models at least), so I got to play with the receiver for several days on my old set up.
Anyways, the Martin Logans are fantastic. It's a hard price to swallow...I don't know if I will really ever be in a position to drop thousands of dollars on speakers instead of other things, but I figured now was as a good time as any and my wife has been dealing with my dreams for 14 years, so she gave the final approval....she doesn't know much about audio brands, but she has known what Maggies and Martin Logans are for a while
The Dynamo 700 really seals the deal. It feels out the bottom very well. It has wireless capability (came with transmitter too), but I don't think I'll ever use it. It's one of those "micro" subs that are common in the high end now (not quite a Sunfire True sub, but only 1 cubic foot in size). This is a quality sub, not sure if I would pay $700 on my own accord, but I'm very thankful it came with the package, and it makes the Electostatics sound like bonafide full range. They ended the deal the next day after I bought them, so just under the gun. It uses, I believe, what is called in the DIY world a Linkwitz Transform. Martin Logan has some other name for it, but it sounds like a Linkwitz Transform filter, as do many of the high end micro sealed subs. A Linkwitz Transforms amplifies the signal going into the amp at the opposite volume that the subwoofer normally would drop off on the low end due to the size of the enclosure. So it allows for a small tight sealed subwoofer that goes very low. The trade-off is higher power requirements and increased travel (X-max) of the driver.
I did have a unique experience with these speakers. I have used the Audyssey MultiEQ set up on both the previous receiver and this new receiver with no issues. That's where you use an included mic and it measures everything and sets all the levels for you. I got the ML's and sub hooked up and re-calibrated. The Dynamo 700 is connected to the pre-amp outs of the front channels to be a front sub exclusively, I already have a Parts Express subwoofer for the LFE channel. Well I noticed that the stereo image was fucked up. The singer always seemed to come from the left. Familiar with the Maggies beaming, I messed with toe in, but that didn't fix it. I then jacked up the channel level on the right to compensate. The singer still sounded like they were coming from the left, and the right speaker just sounded like it was trying to over power the left. So I scratched my head for a couple days and then I tried the "Pure Direct" mode and suddenly I got dead center imaging. Turns out one of the speakers was shown as 1 foot closer to me in the Audyssey distance settings. One was 9.2 feet and the other was 10.2 feet. I set them both to 9.2 feet and voila, beautiful imaging. I have never had that be a problem before on other speakers. And I know the front left and right have never been matching distance in there before. Not sure if this was an issue with the fast responsiveness of the panel or the dipole doing something different.
Electrostatic's are magic, and they certainly have some drawbacks, but sound ain't one of them. Martin Logans are probably the cheapest entry. Quad and Sanders might be the next most known brands of ESL's and your looking at $5K to $10K easy. I have considered for several years to make my own ESL's, but you have to make them flat, and Martin Logan's big appeal is the curved design (curvilinear) they use to reduce the beaming issue. I didn't see any realistic or practical way to do that in DIY.
Set up as follows:
Front: Martin Logan Electromotion ESL
Center: Martin Logan Motion 4 and Klipsch Reference RC-62ii
I need 2 center channels because the TV is so big if you put a center either above of below, it doesn't sound like it's coming from the mouths, it just sounds like it's coming from above or below. And that horn tweeter is actually amazing for center channel dialog...it is bright, but it works in center channel applications.
Rears: In ceiling, 8" 2-way's, forget the brand actually, but they do their job and aren't easily visible....about 15 feet behind the couch, so it does sound like it's behind and not above.
Reciever: Denon AVR-X3400h
Digital: Denon DVD-2910 HDCD / DVD-Audio / SACD universal player
Video: AppleTV
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-A100 (more for nostalgia, it plays Sega games too! But I can whip out The Matrix if needed)
Multi-Channel Amp: Harmon Kardon PA5800 (this is also about 20 years old...been in continuous usage all that time and refuses to give me problems.....very well made and has 12V trigger).
Ideally I would pull the electrostatics out further from the wall, but 2 feet was about the most I could safely manage before other things like kids start becoming a problem. 2-3 feet was about what I had the Maggies at. It does become VERY obvious if you get too close, like 12". The sound quality becomes very flat as low-mid frequencies get canceled out.
So far my biggest surprise was being able to play this song The Singularity by Big Giant Circles. There is a certain point at 2:37 where every thing I have played it on gets distorted (headphones or speakers). It sounds like clipping. I had considered that the composer actually made it sound like that, but I couldn't imagine a reputable artist doing that. The Martin Logans took it like a pro. No distortion. Not to say other things couldn't do this, but I appreciate benchmarks like that.
I know this is mostly a "headphone" group here, and headphones can be very clear, but they can't emulate the effect of a stereo image with width AND height imaging out in front of you. But they are a hell of a lot cheaper than ESL's (relative) and I can certainly appreciate that.
Thanks for listening to my story, chase your audio dreams!
