AdoredTV Covers the History of Intel Cheating on Benchmarks

ecuador

Limp Gawd
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Dec 29, 2008
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207
Ha, I remember even older cheats. Like how the TNT (or was it the Riva 128?) was faster than the Rage Pro in all benchmarks, but it was rendering lower quality compressed textures. It was obvious in a screenshot, but journals of the time were not really doing such comparisons and people realised the issue in games that were using textures for drawing text in menus, which were unreadable on the nvidia cards :D

Edit: Yeah, looking at the dates, it was the Riva 128, not the TNT.
 
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Icon_Charlie

Weaksauce
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Aug 3, 2018
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100
Well again Intel... Google... Apple... they are in my back yard... I kind of know their Marketing PR. Every time I leave that area I feel so... dirty.... just dirty....

Anyhow one of my favorite yub tubbers is It's a Gundam and he talks about his viewpoints on this

Social Justice Warriors need not look... it might make your eyes bleed because of your perceived quota of twitter shaming.

 

IdiotInCharge

NVIDIA SHILL
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Messages
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Ha, I remember even older cheats. Like how the TNT (or was it the Riva 128?) was faster than the Rage Pro in all benchmarks, but it was rendering lower quality compressed textures. It was obvious in a screenshot, but journals of the time were not really doing such comparisons and people realised the issue in games that were using textures for drawing text in menus, which were unreadable on the nvidia cards :D

Edit: Yeah, looking at the dates, it was the Riva 128, not the TNT.
Hell, they were just trying to figure out how to do this realtime stuff with consumer-grade hardware.

Not that I saw any of that firsthand; the Nvidia GPUs were almost competitive and ATi wasn't really on the performance map, in my admittedly aged memory; I ran 3Dfx at the time ;).
 

lostin3d

[H]ard|Gawd
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Kyle, I had no idea of this history. Thanks guys for posting the vid. I learned a lot. I've been saying for over a year now that my next build will be AMD, even more so now.

Just wish AMD would stop throwing money at these kinds of people. Imagine how much it could help r&d or even just better marketing. Oh well.
 

Bahanime

Limp Gawd
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Kyle, I had no idea of this history. Thanks guys for posting the vid. I learned a lot. I've been saying for over a year now that my next build will be AMD, even more so now.

Just wish AMD would stop throwing money at these kinds of people. Imagine how much it could help r&d or even just better marketing. Oh well.
Tech enthusiasts who follow this stuff for a long time have always been talking about all the shady bullshit that Intel and NVIDIA does.

Remember The Way It's Meant To Be Played? Yeah, that's NVIDIA forcing other GPUs to run code that they optimize with their own engineers at the studios. It's forced upon gamers who do not run GTX. And then it evolved into GameWorks, where they ship games with binary DLLs that NV code and compile.

This is very much like Intel coding SYSMARK and others, then using that as a benchmark for all hardware. It's corrupt.

When we call this out in the past, the morons on the Intel & NV side call us tinfoilers or conspiracy theorists. But time after time, we've been proven to be correct and they were wrong.

So in the future, anytime an Intel or NV fanboy make outrageous personal attacks you can all safely ignore them. They were wrong all this time. They will continue to be wrong.
 

shpankey

Limp Gawd
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May 27, 2005
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157
Intel, nVidia and Apple top my list of evildoers from a HW perspective. Of course we all know about Google and Facebook from the software side of things.

Funnily enough, all these companies somehow make the old time original gangsta (Microsoft) seem like good guys to me now. :/ It's not that they are, they're just the lesser of many evils. But it seems they are working on that front to be back at the top again, with Win 10.
 

gamerk2

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While I know Intel bashing is kind of the thing here, I find it just as likely that Principled Technologies enabled Game Mode themselves, either on purpose or not knowing that it reduces performance.

Also, the fact AMD's own driver suite has an option that reduces performance is kind of AMD's fault. Either make turning of CCX's to increase clocks automatic based on workload, or get rid of it. To the layman, you'd think "Game Mode" would INCREASE performance in games.
 

cdr_74_premium

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While I know Intel bashing is kind of the thing here, I find it just as likely that Principled Technologies enabled Game Mode themselves, either on purpose or not knowing that it reduces performance.

Also, the fact AMD's own driver suite has an option that reduces performance is kind of AMD's fault. Either make turning of CCX's to increase clocks automatic based on workload, or get rid of it. To the layman, you'd think "Game Mode" would INCREASE performance in games.
You're not that new.

Back in 2012, when you joined, the AMD hate was flowing hard. Everybody was waiting for its bankruptcy to become official, that was it.

People are now bashing Intel around here because they worked hard to earn it. And AMD basically turned their fate around in a way that nobody would dream possible back in 2012.

About the Game Mode, well, the name is kind of deceiving. But that's not an excuse: a "professional reviewer" should, by all means, do his job professionally, and enabling'disabling things without knowing what they're actually doing is anything but professional.
 

Bahanime

Limp Gawd
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While I know Intel bashing is kind of the thing here, I find it just as likely that Principled Technologies enabled Game Mode themselves, either on purpose or not knowing that it reduces performance.

Also, the fact AMD's own driver suite has an option that reduces performance is kind of AMD's fault. Either make turning of CCX's to increase clocks automatic based on workload, or get rid of it. To the layman, you'd think "Game Mode" would INCREASE performance in games.
AMD's game mode enables Legacy Compatibility toggle, it is in the tweaking tool, and they provide info on what it does.

However, no reviewer worth their salt when doing a fair and stock comparison would go and install a tweaking utility and tweak the CPUs to operate outside of spec for one brand and not for the other.

They knew exactly what they were doing, these are not fools. Look at their documentation on the methodology and bios setups. Not amateurs. This is done so they can exaggerate the delta and still can claim "we didn't know!" or it was a genuine accident.
 

Ranulfo

2[H]4U
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They knew exactly what they were doing, these are not fools. Look at their documentation on the methodology and bios setups. Not amateurs. This is done so they can exaggerate the delta and still can claim "we didn't know!" or it was a genuine accident.
GamersNexus had a good break down of the whole test report. The ram timings and 64gb of ram stick out more to me than even the AoS benchmark. That or the noctua cooler vs stock amd. They're definately riding the line between incompetent amateur and intentional nonsense. The tech press is also going to be cranky because this report is out a week before the press embargo lifts. Intel even bothering with a report like this just seems stupid. Pure marketing stunt I suppose to get some numbers out there.

Good history video as usual by Adoredtv. A poster over there mentioned Sharky Extreme. I hadn't thought about that site in years. Heh, I remember when PCper used to be Amdmb.com.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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They're definately riding the line between incompetent amateur and intentional nonsense.
Yep.

The tech press is also going to be cranky because this report is out a week before the press embargo lifts.
Yep, you got a bunch of n00bs in this that are signing these NDAs then not getting the timeline protection they signed up for.

Intel even bothering with a report like this just seems stupid.
Yep, if I was running Intel 9900 series marketing, this would not have happened.

A poster over there mentioned Sharky Extreme.
Alex has been in the custom P-car biz for many years now. We still talk. http://www.sharkwerks.com
 

Pantalaimon

Limp Gawd
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While I know Intel bashing is kind of the thing here, I find it just as likely that Principled Technologies enabled Game Mode themselves, either on purpose or not knowing that it reduces performance.

Also, the fact AMD's own driver suite has an option that reduces performance is kind of AMD's fault. Either make turning of CCX's to increase clocks automatic based on workload, or get rid of it. To the layman, you'd think "Game Mode" would INCREASE performance in games.
They could have read the manual you know. It's mentioned there what enabling that setting combined with another setting does.
 

Pieter3dnow

Supreme [H]ardness
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AdoredTV tackles the history of Intel cheating on benchmarks. There are a few references to someone that we all know. :)

Unprincipled Benchmarketing 101.
He just can't help himself :)

Kyle, I had no idea of this history. Thanks guys for posting the vid. I learned a lot. I've been saying for over a year now that my next build will be AMD, even more so now.

Just wish AMD would stop throwing money at these kinds of people. Imagine how much it could help r&d or even just better marketing. Oh well.
AMD really cares about the server market that is where they will be getting billions from. The desktop market (OEM) is locked down by Intel if you followed some of the news regarding 10nm Intel cpu you get a better picture of how bad this really is. That leaves the consumers that built their own systems usually those people are informed enough to make the decision.
But no amount of money can help AMD on marketing that would make sense in turning around OEM desktop. The best thing you can do is just not buy Intel hardware regardless of OEM.
 
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Stimpy88

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I love AdoredTV. He is one of the last tech reporters with balls. All the others that call themselves reporters should be ashamed of themselves, they are nothing but bloggers, and are oftern nothing more than an extension of corporate marketing departments these days, usually doing little more than copying and pasting press releases verbatim.

This guy, Steve from Gamers Nexus, our own beloved Kyle, and a very small handful of others, form pretty much the last stand against this bullshit.
 
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spine

2[H]4U
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Seriously though, has anyone ever taken benchmarks from tech companies at face value?!

It's so tragic that they even bother to publish them. They might as well just outright lie and call it a day, since anyone with half a brain knows to simply just ignore that bullshit.

I mean it's just there for the idiots, and like, do we care about them?
 

ghostwich

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Seriously though, has anyone ever taken benchmarks from tech companies at face value?!

It's so tragic that they even bother to publish them. They might as well just outright lie and call it a day, since anyone with half a brain knows to simply just ignore that bullshit.

I mean it's just there for the idiots, and like, do we care about them?
It's not the enthusiast that falls for it.

It's the poorly motivated site that'll pick this up and begin to shout the misleading headline, that gets picked up on aggregators, and snowballs on social media.

Then you've got two opposing forces:
  • lies feeding pre-existing biases
  • informed maybe inconvenient truths
I don't want to fight these battles, do you?
 

ebduncan

[H]ard|Gawd
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Having been in the tech market for a long time, its nothing new to me.

It's like going to the car show, and talking with car owners. They be like it makes 500hp to the wheels, and you look under the hood and see nothing but colored loom. You don't trust what the owner says, you trust what that dynograph says. The owners are always going to sugar coat it. It's just sad when large companies hire another company to publish results, so they can have zero liability on the results. I hope it bites them both in the rear....
 

IdiotInCharge

NVIDIA SHILL
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I hope it bites them both in the rear....
And then I hope that they start doing more honest releases. I'm betting the 'biting them in the rear' is having the founder of their chosen benchmark mill on a popular YouTube channel being called to carpet over their choices, particularly one that shows the 2700X in a less than optimal light.
 

MBTP

n00b
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18
It's not the enthusiast that falls for it.

It's the poorly motivated site that'll pick this up and begin to shout the misleading headline, that gets picked up on aggregators, and snowballs on social media.

Then you've got two opposing forces:
  • lies feeding pre-existing biases
  • informed maybe inconvenient truths
I don't want to fight these battles, do you?
The real problem that most people don't get it, Intel knows it well, hoppefully with the internet we will end this type of missleading marketing, there should be some kind of law to undermine this type of behaviour in a more assertive way.
 

Elf_Boy

2[H]4U
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2,386
No accountability in the corporate world. EU seems to have it right, litigate and fine. They just don't have big enough fines or enough lawyers in Europe to affect the bottom line.
 

Elf_Boy

2[H]4U
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2,386
I still go to madonion.Com sometimes for nostalgia.

All the cheats aimed at that company over the years. I imagine the qa process they use now to detect cheats is extensive.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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This and the evolution of video card reviews going from canned benchmarks to video card evaluations of actual game play was a thing of beauty.
It first really struck me that we were "doing it wrong," when I was flying out to be on the Screen Savers to talk about the 5800 IIRC. I had spent a week with the card, and while I was on the plane, it occurred to me that I was going on live TV to talk to enthusiasts about a product specifically used to play games on...and I had never played a game on it. And I was supposed to be the "expert?" That did not sit well with me.

Brent and I were later flying back from Toronto, from ATi, on a subsequent trip, when we sat together and hashed out our first framework for our full "100% real-world gameplay" approach.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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I give mad props to Brent_Justice for all his years of tireless video card evaluations. I can't imagine how many hours goes into each article and lack of sleep when the clock is ticking fast to that deadline.
He is and always has been a machine when it comes to that. Crazy thing is how much gaming he does in his off time.
 

Brent_Justice

Moderator
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17,755
I have off time? hehe

I think I found my very first review here - https://www.hardocp.com/article/2002/07/14/asus_geforce4_ti_4600_ultra_deluxe/1

But it wasn't my first, before that I wrote a buying guide for Sharky Extreme, back when Alex himself was still there. Then before that I wrote articles for an ATI enthusiast site, rival to Rage Underground, it was called something like Lightning 3D or Lightning 128 or something, I actually can't remember exactly what it was right now, back in the late 90's. ATI Rage 3D/128 era. Then I tried my own site called Core Meltdown, even got some cards from 3DFX (grabs Voodoo3 3500 TV), that's where I first met my 3DFX contact, Kyle knows who. Yeah, been doing this business over 20 years now :eek: And I still love it.

Thank you to you all *grabs everyone in forum and squeezes* I do this because of and for you.

/edit, sorry, took a trip down memory lane there and got off topic, good AdoredTV video there :p

/edit 2, hahhaha, I found my Voodoo 3 review I did in 2000 on my site lol, if you want some nostalgia - https://web.archive.org/web/20000817072757/http://www.coremeltdown.com:80/reviews/3dfx/1.shtml
 
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