AAA Study Claims Cold Weather Significantly Shortens EV Range

[griffinhart]

I'm no expert, but isn't it likely that such a small difference (1.7%) is simply due to the engine needing more time come to normal efficient operating temperature from a colder starting point? I know when I drive long distances in my car in the winter, the highway range is basically the same, or within a margin of error, and most likely could be attributed due to winds.

No, It's down to the formulation. The difference is that Summer and Winter gas evaporate at different temperature ranges. Summer gas in cold temps causes the engine to be rough and hard to start. The trade off is, winter gas has slightly less energy, which is where that minor mileage difference comes into play.

 

[KD5ZXG]

Who needs a passenger seat when you could have a coal fired pot belly stove?

 

[MaZa]

Oh really!? Have they never noticed how quickly a cold weather kills car batteries in normal cars? It reduced how well they accept recharging and how much power it can hold. Especially when it gets old. A battery that works well in summer may fail to start the car in winter. -20C to -30C winters are murder for cars. And with EV cars the batteries have to do everything, from moving the car to warming it up. Freezing cold weathers must be brutal for them.

 

[Darunion]

We also should probably have the argument of "windows down versus air conditioner" now before we get into summer.

 

[zalazin]

Wow guess if you don't live in the mid to southern states an EV is next to worthless. Alaska? out of the question....

 

[KD5ZXG]

I'm trying to present a case for hybrid here. Least as a range extending generator and heater.
Not saying it has to be powerful, run when it isn't needed, or have any mechanical connection
to the wheels. VTwin might be fine. Turbocompound if you want to get fancy and improve the
expansion efficiency. Rarely see turbocompound cause its so hard to match turbine speed to
crank, but thats not an issue for charging batteries.

 

[Darunion]

Solar battery heater. (tm)

 

[Fresch]

Shrinkage, No I just got out of the water really!
This just in: just because you have more checks doesn't mean you have more money.
You don't shit where you eat.
Hot lead into your brain could effect your health adversely.
People are becoming more stupid or just don't care who knows anymore.
The human race is lost, just look around you; he is an idiot,she's an idiot, your ok, like you, jerk, fool,

 

[bigdogchris]

ive never understood this attitude, the futurist bias- the ultimate in monday morning quarterbacking. there are a million paths that history could have taken, why assume that embracing vehicles as we know them was the best one?

I don't know what you're getting at. The point I was trying to make was people complaining about electric cars "not being good enough". Well, gasoline cars that they enjoy today were at one time "not good enough" either. They enjoy the benefit today because of the sacrifices and chances people took 100+ years ago, yet the people complaining are not willing to do the same for the next generation.

My gas powered car takes a 20-30% mileage hit in cold weather too. Combine it what actually have to use the AWD there is a big difference. I think both cars are showing around 14ish MPG right now since the cold snap and they are turbo 4's

Well a lot of that has to due with that they put Butane in gasoline in the winter because it's cheaper, but has less energy density.

 

[purple_monster]

I don't know what you're getting at. The point I was trying to make was people complaining about electric cars "not being good enough". Well, gasoline cars that they enjoy today were at one time "not good enough" either. They enjoy the benefit today because of the sacrifices and chances people took 100+ years ago, yet the people complaining are not willing to do the same for the next generation.

exactly my point- why do you assume in 100 year that people will find equivalency in the move from horsecarts -> vehicles as traditional vehicles -> electric cars. your comment is based on analogy and perception, and the assumption that we will all look back one day and say "why didnt we all drive teslas sooner." you dont know that, you are assuming the future will follow the patterns of how things have always been. That is incorrect. Like I said, more just a comment on attitude and bias...

 

[bigdogchris]

exactly my point- why do you assume in 100 year that people will find equivalency in the move from horsecarts -> vehicles as traditional vehicles -> electric cars. your comment is based on analogy and perception, and the assumption that we will all look back one day and say "why didnt we all drive teslas sooner." you dont know that, you are assuming the future will follow the patterns of how things have always been. That is incorrect. Like I said, more just a comment on attitude and bias...

What other forms of transportation do you see as possible alternatives to electrified or hybrid electrified vehicles? I also don't think it's unreasonable to believe in 100 years time we will no longer be burning gasoline in whatever transportation method is used.

I think your opinion would hold more weight if there were genuine alternatives and you felt that people were unfairly biased against them.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

exactly my point- why do you assume in 100 year that people will find equivalency in the move from horsecarts -> vehicles as traditional vehicles -> electric cars. your comment is based on analogy and perception, and the assumption that we will all look back one day and say "why didnt we all drive teslas sooner." you dont know that, you are assuming the future will follow the patterns of how things have always been. That is incorrect. Like I said, more just a comment on attitude and bias...

Actually, electric cars were already not being good enough in the early 20th century when they ceded a substantial market share to gasoline cars. We'll see if the future follows the same pattern.
Some philosopher said something about this... those who do not learn from making electric cars are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.

 

[jimthebob]

This is completely wrong. For long trips when the engine has a chance to warm up, sure. Batteries also perform better once they have warmed up.

But it can take a half an hour of driving at 20F for most ICE engines to reach their ideal operating temperature.

Most people drive their cars very short trips though (to the grocery store and back, drop off the kids at school, etc. etc.) and on these the impact at 20F can be over 20% on an ICE engine.


The biggest difference here is that electrical vehicles cannot rely on waste engine heat to heat the cabin, as their motors are so much more efficient, so they need to use battery power to generate heat, or you are driving in the cold.

Everyone buying an electric vehicle should know this.

Half an hour to warm up at 20°F?!? It didn't even take my truck (V8 Silverado) or my wife's car (V6 Malibu) that long to warm up during our recent -40°F or colder cold snap we had here in upper Illinois recently. Took a few cranks to start at 5:30am with your nuts freezing to your leg but after a few minutes the engine smoothed out, maybe 15 minutes later sitting idle then we're on our way to work with heat. On a normal cold day? Let it run for five minutes, begin driving, have heat and a warm vehicle after 10 minutes of total run time.

 

[jimthebob]

Also, guys, new AAA study shows that the plane does in fact NOT take off from a moving treadmill.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Half an hour to warm up at 20°F?!? It didn't even take my truck (V8 Silverado) or my wife's car (V6 Malibu) that long to warm up during our recent -40°F or colder cold snap we had here in upper Illinois recently. Took a few cranks to start at 5:30am with your nuts freezing to your leg but after a few minutes the engine smoothed out, maybe 15 minutes later sitting idle then we're on our way to work with heat. On a normal cold day? Let it run for five minutes, begin driving, have heat and a warm vehicle after 10 minutes of total run time.

Having heat in the car is not the same as being at optimum temperature for best fuel milage.

 

[purple_monster]

What other forms of transportation do you see as possible alternatives to electrified or hybrid electrified vehicles? I also don't think it's unreasonable to believe in 100 years time we will no longer be burning gasoline in whatever transportation method is used.

I think your opinion would hold more weight if there were genuine alternatives and you felt that people were unfairly biased against them.

im not trying to be some big big brain here or flaunt my 3000 IQ, but you are thinking so small. thats the whole point- you dont know about the alternatives that currently do or do not exist that will influence the future. you are making judgements on how people act now based on a perception(possibly influenced by sci-fi) on what the future will look like. But your perception is based on 2019 thinking. The problem is that you have already made comments being critical of an entire generation, that is foolish attitude.

but to answer your question: just an example if i stretch my mind is VR tech possibly advancing so far and social expectations for travel/personal interactions changing to the point where travel outside the home is extremely rare. again i dont present this particular example for actual analysis, just again saying that judging the present from a future perspective that you have created is very lame.

So no I dont think the people who arent yet embracing electric cars being equated with those who held on to their horse and cart is fair. That is not yet set in stone.

Think "1950s kitchen of the future" if you dont get it still.

 

[Lizard Testes]

This is completely wrong. For long trips when the engine has a chance to warm up, sure. Batteries also perform better once they have warmed up.

But it can take a half an hour of driving at 20F for most ICE engines to reach their ideal operating temperature.

False equivalence. Batteries are never going to "warm up" like an ICE engine, they have to consume their own energy to do it, just driving the car won't.

Most people drive their cars very short trips though (to the grocery store and back, drop off the kids at school, etc. etc.) and on these the impact at 20F can be over 20% on an ICE engine.

Which is still nowhere near the impact on the electrics.

The biggest difference here is that electrical vehicles cannot rely on waste engine heat to heat the cabin

Which is only part of the reason your statements are functionally nonsense.

 

[jimthebob]

Having heat in the car is not the same as being at optimum temperature for best fuel milage.

I know this, so perhaps I should have worded my post better. Let's try this instead, I have bolded and underlined the parts I should have added to my original post:

Half an hour to warm up at 20°F?!? It didn't even take my truck (V8 Silverado) or my wife's car (V6 Malibu) that long to warm up during our recent -40°F or colder cold snap we had here in upper Illinois recently. Took a few cranks to start at 5:30am with your nuts freezing to your leg but after a few minutes the engine smoothed out, maybe 15 minutes later sitting idle then we're on our way to work with heat from the fully warmed up engine as indicated by the temp gauge in my dash cluster. On a normal cold day? Let it run for five minutes, begin driving, have heat and a warm vehicle after 10 minutes of total run time thanks to the fully warmed up engine as indicated by the temp gauge in my dash cluster.

 

[potency]

Ahhh, the eternal struggle between physics and marketing.

 

[purple_monster]

Actually, electric cars were already not being good enough in the early 20th century when they ceded a substantial market share to gasoline cars. We'll see if the future follows the same pattern.
Some philosopher said something about this... those who do not learn from making electric cars are doomed to repeat it, or something like that.

i mean electric cars just hide the energy problems behind another layer so they wont be saving anybody on this planet at least. power plants still have to burn shit up and poop it into the environment at some point to make power. On top of that the leftists have moved nuclear power or new dams into taboo, which is sad. Wind is a joke, solar is a joke. the solution to the problem hasnt been found yet i dont think.

at least without setting our lifestyles back 150 years or telling the rest of the undeveloped world they have to stay in the stone age forever.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

No shit.

Guess what.

Extreme cold significantly shortens the range of a traditional internal combustion powered vehicle as well.


Next up, AAA confirms water is wet.

Pretty much, our gasoline and diesel cars are adversely affected by cold temperatures. Especially little diesels.

However:

I guess I don't consider 20F extreme cold. ( I'm from the upper midwest were we recently had three days in a row well below 0F ) Also, my fuel mileage doesn't take a 40% or 60% hit ( depending on what numbers you use from the article ) at 20F.

I believe this is a valid issue to write about for people in colder climates.

Yeah, 20°F is hardly extreme cold.

The truth is that Tesla is doing a lot of experimentation and learning as they go. What I'm looking forward to is EVs from Volkswagen and Volvo, they are two of the very few companies that genuinely know how to build a car for the -50°C set. Both are set to be in the market in 2022.

Well, except that I've never met a Volkswagen I actually liked.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

i mean electric cars just hide the energy problems behind another layer so they wont be saving anybody on this planet at least. power plants still have to burn shit up and poop it into the environment at some point to make power. On top of that the leftists have moved nuclear power or new dams into taboo, which is sad. Wind is a joke, solar is a joke. the solution to the problem hasnt been found yet i dont think.

at least without setting our lifestyles back 150 years or telling the rest of the undeveloped world they have to stay in the stone age forever.

I mostly agree with that statement, except the part about the leftists, I've seen with my own eyes god loving, MAGA hat wearing, 'merican Flag Waving, constructing the very same Wind and Solar sites they so despise.
Anyhoo, even the colony on LV-426 used a nuclear-powered atmosphere processing station, and besides a couple issues with the design using nuclear power was OK with me.

 

[defaultluser]

No shit.

Guess what.

Extreme cold significantly shortens the range of a traditional internal combustion powered vehicle as well.

But it's not that large a margin. It's closer to 10% for me.

And THAT is what is important here: that companies like Tesla pave over the fact that you have to produce your own heat in the winter (a lot more than 10% hit when it's below freezing), and that the battery packs have to be warmed (maybe 5%), and that regenerative braking and power to the wheels all suffer more ( the same 10% friction losses your gas car sees). Do the math, and suddenly you're a lot closer to 1/3 to 1/2 the range you had in the summer.

This is the reason somebody does studies like these: because no salesman in their right mind would ever put this in ad copy for the car. Not unless federal rules required it.

Don't pretend that just because you "know something" doesn't mean the study offer zero useful information. You need studies like these before dumb-ass lawmakers will get off their lazy asses and require such testing. Like, remember when the EPA fuel economy estimates were bullshit? Now they are accurate, because enough people bitched and did studies like these.

 

[Master_shake_]

so what you're saying is cold weather slows down the flow of electrons causing reduced battery performance?

balderdash!

 

[Nightfire]

No shit.

Guess what.

Extreme cold significantly shortens the range of a traditional internal combustion powered vehicle as well.


Next up, AAA confirms water is wet.

Um what?? It will significantly increase energy for VERY short trips as you need time to warm up your car. After that, it does not have a huge impact.

Ahaha water is wet. So clever This is always an attempt to dismiss an desirable downside. Yeah, most did expect energy cost to increase, but I am not sure if everyone expected over 50% rather mild conditions.

 

[PantherBlitz]

The point I was trying to make was people complaining about electric cars "not being good enough". Well, gasoline cars that they enjoy today were at one time "not good enough" either. They enjoy the benefit today because of the sacrifices and chances people took 100+ years ago, yet the people complaining are not willing to do the same for the next generation.

Every time I seriously look into getting an EV the issue of range rears its ugly head. It just is not good enough yet for my purposes in 2019. That is what the AAA study is about - making sure that potential buyers take the further reduced range into consideration before buying. It has nothing to do with the range of gasoline vehicles. Every driver has experience with them and know exactly what they are getting.

I don't get the comparison of choosing between cars or horses. Nobody thought that they were making sacrifices when they bought a car in 1919.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Um what?? It will significantly increase energy for VERY short trips as you need time to warm up your car. After that, it does not have a huge impact.

Ahaha water is wet. So clever This is always an attempt to dismiss an desirable downside. Yeah, most did expect energy cost to increase, but I am not sure if everyone expected over 50% rather mild conditions.

I always love electric car and/or the quest for automatic driving vehicles as it always brings out people who have very simple solutions for massively complex systems. I finally facepalmed myself enough to make an account here after lurking for 13 years. Sigh.

 

[Nightfire]

As others have alluded to, we can sum it up as:

Cold Weather Significantly Shortens Range of ALL cars.

NOT significantly. This a weak attempt by all the ICE haters to minimize an advantage of gas engines.

 

[Galvin]

This is why the whole world can't go electric

 

[defaultluser]

I will consider an all-electric car once the summer range gets over 400, while not costing more than 5k over my current car (Honda Fit). This will guarantee me 200 miles of range even in the worst of weather, and that the car will actually pay for itself over the cost of gas (since I don't live n California, gas is cheap, and the weather gets fucking cold for six months).

You can't just hook it up at the supercharger down the street (who has that?), so you need a KNOWN worst-case minimum mileage for these things.

The problem here is that there is no information on this drop off in ANY ad copy fr any electric car out there. Since it's significantly more than for a gas car, maybe they should include that sort of info?

 

[Krenum]

Well no shit Sherlock. Someone actually got paid to write that report, that's the sad thing.

 

[Nightfire]

zz

Half an hour at 20F? What kind of vehicle are you driving? I have an actual temperature gauge in my Jeep, and at 20F it takes about 10 minutes to get up to full operating temperature; it gets to 100F in just a few minutes, at which point the engine is running at nearly peak efficiency. I guess if you live in the city and make a lot of short trips, then you will notice the difference more, but even a 20% drop in mileage is not "significant".

Yeah, this Z guy is clearly full of it along with the hordes giving a like to this nonsense. At 20*, it takes about 5 minutes of idle to warm up. Even frigid temps take 10-15 on most vehicles and that really does not burn much gas.

 

[bigdogchris]

Every time I seriously look into getting an EV the issue of range rears its ugly head. It just is not good enough yet for my purposes in 2019. That is what the AAA study is about - making sure that potential buyers take the further reduced range into consideration before buying. It has nothing to do with the range of gasoline vehicles. Every driver has experience with them and know exactly what they are getting.

I don't get the comparison of choosing between cars or horses. Nobody thought that they were making sacrifices when they bought a car in 1919.

Sure, right now electric cars don't have great range, take too long to charge, have poor winter performance, are too expensive, and the electric grid can't support everyone having one.

Shall we list the deficiencies of gasoline cars in 1919 compared to 2019 gasoline cars?

Yes, I am making assumptions. I assume that if people continue to buy electric cars that electric car manufacturers will continue to innovate. I assume in 100 years we will have electric cars that are as much better than today as gasoline cars are better than in 1909. I don't think that's a stretch. What is a stretch, however, is the idea that they should stop selling electric cars until "they get it right". Which of course doesn't make sense because who would invest money into an industry with no ROI?

Electric vehicles do have a place right now. It's not a huge place, but they have a place. Just like the horseless carriage did in 1909.

 

[Merc1138]

Sure, right now electric cars don't have great range, take too long to charge, have poor winter performance, are too expensive, and the electric grid can't support everyone having one.

Shall we list the deficiencies of gasoline cars in 1919 compared to 2019 gasoline cars?

Yes, I am making assumptions. I assume that if people continue to buy electric cars that electric car manufacturers will continue to innovate. I assume in 100 years we will have electric cars that are as much better than today as gasoline cars are better than in 1909. I don't think that's a stretch. What is a stretch, however, is the idea that they should stop selling electric cars until "they get it right". Which of course doesn't make sense because who would invest money into an industry with no ROI?

Electric vehicles do have a place right now. It's not a huge place, but they have a place. Just like the horseless carriage did in 1909.

It's funny how you're talking about electric vehicles 100 years from now, compared to ICE vehicles 100 years ago...

What about electric vehicles 100 years ago? Yeah, they existed. The limitations?

Battery life, range, charging, cold weather, etc. You know, the same damn problems we still have with them 100 years later.

 

[NightReaver]

Yeah, idk. Anyone here who's saying combustion engines suffer just as much are either being disingenuous on purpose, or really just have no experience with normal gas engines. Up here by the Lakes, no matter how cold it is, I let the car idle for 10 minutes then after driving for a couple more the engine is up to temp. This is an 09 Edge V6 with 155k on it. I reset the MPH gauge back in early September on a trip to Mackinaw just to see what I could get on long range highway driving. On the way back a full tank would get me about 330 miles.

All the way until now, with plenty of urban driving, a full tank now gets me 280 miles. A decrease, but nowhere even close to what these EVs are losing. Until battery tech makes a great leap, EVs will never be more than a trinket for a very small group of people to play with, almost like a hobby.

 

[purple_monster]

I mostly agree with that statement, except the part about the leftists, I've seen with my own eyes god loving, MAGA hat wearing, 'merican Flag Waving, constructing the very same Wind and Solar sites they so despise.
Anyhoo, even the colony on LV-426 used a nuclear-powered atmosphere processing station, and besides a couple issues with the design using nuclear power was OK with me.

you've seen with your own eyes people constructing wind turbines... while waving flags, while wearing maga hats, and yelling about how they both love god and despise wind and solar. I can't say you haven't. i kid.

 

[Fresch]

It's all been fixed, I just watched the news and "The New Green Deal" is coming for all of us; we have been saved!
No not really must be the dumbest thing yet.

 

[Nightfire]

Lots of AOC fans here. "Let's in invest in technologies that don't exist yet"

Anyhow, it doesn't have to always be electric vs gas. Gas is better for some scenarios and electric is better for others. That ratio may move more and more electric but the speed is FAR slower than the futurists here predict even with better and better batteries, motors, etc.

COEXIST!! People act as if electric is a shiny new tech that needs to replace ICE as soon as possible.

 

[Nightfire]

It's all been fixed, I just watched the news and "The New Green Deal" is coming for all of us; we have been saved!
No not really must be the dumbest thing yet.

Oh God, another AOC gem. This is how stupid public education has turned us Millennials.

The New Green Deal: It will make air travel obsolete in 10 years, allow people a good wage if they don't want to work and even end racism!

 

[bigdogchris]

It's funny how you're talking about electric vehicles 100 years from now, compared to ICE vehicles 100 years ago...

What about electric vehicles 100 years ago? Yeah, they existed. The limitations?

Battery life, range, charging, cold weather, etc. You know, the same damn problems we still have with them 100 years later.

I'm comparing how far ICE has came in the past 100 years (a long, long, long way) and saying, in 100 years from now, electric will probably come a long, long, long, way.

Lots of AOC fans here. "Let's in invest in technologies that don't exist yet"

Anyhow, it doesn't have to always be electric vs gas. Gas is better for some scenarios and electric is better for others. That ratio may move more and more electric but the speed is FAR slower than the futurists here predict even with better and better batteries, motors, etc.

COEXIST!! People act as if electric is a shiny new tech that needs to replace ICE as soon as possible.

Electric doesn't need to replace ICE and won't for several decades. It will likely be a hybrid electric fleet. Batteries, at best, are 15 years away from being compatible energy density wise, but obviously have a higher up front cost. And that's where the private investment comes from, by making vehicles now and putting them on the market and having consumers pay for them, not the government.