A Voice Against XBox 720 Always Online DRM - SirJamesDTech

SirJamesDDJ

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE41A_nQYhM

This is the only forum I'm posting this video link on, because you all have a more mature audience and at least allow four letter words.
The rumors are swirling fast and furious that the XBox 720 "Durango" will require always-on DRM. I give several reasons backed with sources as to why this is an awful thing.
Following the firing/resignation of Adam Orth, Creative Director at Microsoft, the corporate hero Cliff Bleszinski aka CliffyB, lead designer of Microsoft-published Gears of War, has once again treated us with his views.
Well in this video are mine.
Hope you enjoy, because this rant is not my usual style.
Thanks.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this video do not necessarily reflect the views of Machinima or its staff.
 

FLyGuYyy

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Funny thing about always online is, xbox live is down right now as we speak, what happens with the 720 then
 

Romale23

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you guys might think i'm nieve for saying this: is anyone sure that the definition of "always on" is the same here? I've read one article that made always on seem like what the xbox is now. IE when its plugged into the internet it's using the internet and is internet aware versus a drm scheme.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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That's one of the reasons I didn't go much into connectivity issues or servers being pulled...which is why I chose to focus more on the patents and how the R&D investment into some of these features would go to waste if there isn't an always-on element.
I'm not attempting a Miss Cleo impersonation. Merely bringing to light information which I felt has been overlooked.
 

Lemonjello

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you guys might think i'm nieve for saying this: is anyone sure that the definition of "always on" is the same here? I've read one article that made always on seem like what the xbox is now. IE when its plugged into the internet it's using the internet and is internet aware versus a drm scheme.

Good question, I think it is safe to say that "always on" means what we fear because if it was the same as the 360 is now then that former xbox creative director would have said "it's already that way now, no changes stop being silly" instead we got defensiveness and deal with it.
Yeah sure the xbox is not official yet but Sony had no problem already stating that their console will not force you to be online and they wouldnt even show a prototype of the shell for the system.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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you guys might think i'm nieve for saying this: is anyone sure that the definition of "always on" is the same here? I've read one article that made always on seem like what the xbox is now. IE when its plugged into the internet it's using the internet and is internet aware versus a drm scheme.

Good question, I think it is safe to say that "always on" means what we fear because if it was the same as the 360 is now then that former xbox creative director would have said "it's already that way now, no changes stop being silly" instead we got defensiveness and deal with it.
Add to that the other Twitter user in the conversation with Orth, Manveer Heir who happens to be Senior Gameplay Designer at Bioware, brought up connectivity issues in rural areas and the dill weed replied with, "Why would I live there?"
If anybody doesn't think that this guy represents the overarching opinion of Microsoft, and frankly every major publisher, then you need rain-x for your eyeballs. And he got canned solely because his public Twitter posts woke people out of their bullshit slumber of "Yes, Microsoft cares for me. They won't make it so I have to stay on all the time."
If this was a leaked memo or something, it'd be so easy to bury and memory hole it. But Twitter posts spread like wild fire, and I'm actually sorry he's gone because I was looking forward to more leaked information this dumbass in his arrogant prick attitude was gonna let slip.
 

hdawg06

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Haven't they confirmed that all games will have to be installed on the HDD and played from it though? Discs are supposedly just to install games and won't actually be read when gaming.
 

SeymourGore

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I don't think anything's been confirmed at this point (including installs on HDDs). The thing with these rumours, is that the rumours surrounding the PS4 were so spot on.

Still, I've got to wonder if the delay from April to May for the big reveal didn't have something to do with them rejigging their conference to remove the 'always online drm' or to reanalyze their position on it.

Hopefully after these consoles are released into the wild, somebody within the company who knows the situation well will write something about what went on behind the scenes.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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I don't think anything's been confirmed at this point (including installs on HDDs). The thing with these rumours, is that the rumours surrounding the PS4 were so spot on.

Still, I've got to wonder if the delay from April to May for the big reveal didn't have something to do with them rejigging their conference to remove the 'always online drm' or to reanalyze their position on it.

Hopefully after these consoles are released into the wild, somebody within the company who knows the situation well will write something about what went on behind the scenes.
Perhaps it's because none of us have the specific specs, but wouldn't it be safe to say that if Microsoft had planned on releasing an always on requirement and then at the last minute decided to change their mind, it would take a hell of a long time?
And my guess is permissions have already been given, so there's really no turning back now if they're rolling it out.
 

Godmachine

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Perhaps it's because none of us have the specific specs, but wouldn't it be safe to say that if Microsoft had planned on releasing an always on requirement and then at the last minute decided to change their mind, it would take a hell of a long time?
And my guess is permissions have already been given, so there's really no turning back now if they're rolling it out.

Console manufacturers are well known for last minute changes. CliffyB convinced Microsoft to ship the first Xbox with 512MB of RAM versus the original 256MB by showing Microsoft a very early build of what became Gears of War with 512MB of RAM versus 256MB. Keep in mind that MS went into production something like 2-3 months later. That was considered a last minute choice and it cost MS a shit ton of money to add another 256MB of RAM to every console but it paid off in spades.

Anyone that thinks MS hasn't been putting out feelers/rumors regarding Always Online DRM is absolutely deluding themselves.

All that matters is that MS got the message that we won't tolerate that kind of DRM. And so far it seems they got that message loud and clear.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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Console manufacturers are well known for last minute changes. CliffyB convinced Microsoft to ship the first Xbox with 512MB of RAM versus the original 256MB by showing Microsoft a very early build of what became Gears of War with 512MB of RAM versus 256MB. Keep in mind that MS went into production something like 2-3 months later. That was considered a last minute choice and it cost MS a shit ton of money to add another 256MB of RAM to every console but it paid off in spades.

Anyone that thinks MS hasn't been putting out feelers/rumors regarding Always Online DRM is absolutely deluding themselves.

All that matters is that MS got the message that we won't tolerate that kind of DRM. And so far it seems they got that message loud and clear.
That's a good example.
I guess I'm more saying that always on DRM has more tentacles than just plunking 256MB more RAM into each unit. It doesn't seem to be an element which could be handbraked and spun 180 degrees around in a month.
 

Derangel

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That's a good example.
I guess I'm more saying that always on DRM has more tentacles than just plunking 256MB more RAM into each unit. It doesn't seem to be an element which could be handbraked and spun 180 degrees around in a month.

What makes you think the change will only happen in a month? The console won't release until at least the end of this year. It won't be announced until next month. The "leaks" have been floating for over half a year. There has been and still is plenty of time to make changes like that. Hell Sony didn't say anything about not having always-on DRM until after they announced the PS4. You make it sound like the console is coming out next month.
 

magoo

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Quite honestly, I don't think Microsoft gives a rat's ass what the 15 guys that respond to this thread on a computer hardware website have to say.

this console will roll out to millions of users, most of whom only want to buy the unit so they can play the next installment of Call of Duty.

Do you think the parents of these 15 year old kids even know what DRM is?
Do you think they care if the box is "always on"?

Answer.....all they care about is the thing works when they turn it on and their kid is happy and leaves them alone.:eek:
 

Derangel

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Quite honestly, I don't think Microsoft gives a rat's ass what the 15 guys that respond to this thread on a computer hardware website have to say.

this console will roll out to millions of users, most of whom only want to buy the unit so they can play the next installment of Call of Duty.

Do you think the parents of these 15 year old kids even know what DRM is?
Do you think they care if the box is "always on"?

Answer.....all they care about is the thing works when they turn it on and their kid is happy and leaves them alone.:eek:

If that was true then the PS4 would have always-on DRM and would block used games. When damn near the entire aware gaming community and 90% of the games press is upset about something you can be sure manufactures and publishers take notice. Since Diablo 3 launched there has been a massive anti-always on DRM campaign from gamers.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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What makes you think the change will only happen in a month? The console won't release until at least the end of this year. It won't be announced until next month. The "leaks" have been floating for over half a year. There has been and still is plenty of time to make changes like that. Hell Sony didn't say anything about not having always-on DRM until after they announced the PS4. You make it sound like the console is coming out next month.
Based on let's say they had been planning to roll it out until this latest shit storm with Adam Orth or have been putting out feelers, well as you say things are being announced in a month so I'd think they would like to manufacture precisely what they announce if hardware would need to be adjusted. And as Godmachine said above, 2-3 months before production was considered tight in a separate situation.
Now if having always on enabled or disabled can all be done digitally or through firmware, then screw everything I said.
That's all.
 

Derangel

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Based on let's say they had been planning to roll it out until this latest shit storm with Adam Orth or have been putting out feelers, well as you say things are being announced in a month so I'd think they would like to manufacture precisely what they announce if hardware would need to be adjusted. And as Godmachine said above, 2-3 months before production was considered tight in a separate situation.
Now if having always on enabled or disabled can all be done digitally or through firmware, then screw everything I said.
That's all.

The Orth situation will have as much effect on MS's decisions with the 720 as SimCity's failure did on John R. being fired from EA, none at all. Any decision on it would have been made long before he opened his mouth. Even in the unlikely case that it does they still have let's say half a year prior to launch. As long as always-on DRM isn't so baked into the OS that it's impossible to remove without redoing the whole thing it is plenty of time.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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It's gonna be a damn interesting time around E3 though.
All I know is those patents are real, and their technology isn't possible without being always on.
That's of course not to say that every patent is carried out...that's plain madness.
But I felt those were being seriously overlooked while everybody is focused on connectivity and servers.
 

Ur_Mom

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Always on is odd. Steam is an online system, but works offline with single player games. SimCity, though, is an online only single player game. You are required to be online the entire time, no offline mode.

If the Xbox was more like Steam, I wouldn't care too much. My Xbox's are connected to the internet right now. But, occasionally, the network goes down or Live is down. If it falls back to an 'offline mode', I could care less.

There are a lot of people that have Xbox's that don't hook them up online, though (for many reasons - no internet [father in law], don't want kids online, back bedroom with no wi-fi, hotel, etc.). They might care a lot more than I do.

It all comes down to the implementation. It could work fine, like Steam does, or it could be very shitty - like SimShitty.
 

JohnDoe9541

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Haven't they confirmed that all games will have to be installed on the HDD and played from it though? Discs are supposedly just to install games and won't actually be read when gaming.

Which means NO used games.
 
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Godmachine

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Which means NO used games.

Or it means no game will be streamed from the disc as its been for decades now. Nothing says you can't sell a game that gets installed to the hard drive , PS3 has mandatory HDD installs on certain games and you can sell those games used.
 

Kinsaras

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Or it means no game will be streamed from the disc as its been for decades now. Nothing says you can't sell a game that gets installed to the hard drive , PS3 has mandatory HDD installs on certain games and you can sell those games used.

You can install every 360 game now. I do this mostly because it greatly reduces the jet engine noise the console makes. It also slightly improves load times. That said you are still required to have the disc to play.
 

SirJamesDDJ

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Part of me thinks that because people are becoming aware of Microsoft's patents and how gamers would LOVE the chance to have a true vote based on a hotbutton subject for product A or B, that being XBox or PS4.
However, the cynic in me sees Microsoft not giving a damn what people find out about it, leasing out the patent rights while everyone is aware of what they're doing, and then reclaiming them later on.
Either way, tech journalists should be salivating for the months upcoming.
 

zero2dash

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Everything about the new Xbox is rumor and being blown out of proportion.

omg this so much

When Kotaku reports it and claims reputable (albeit unnamed) sources.....it adds some smoke to the fire.
http://kotaku.com/5879202/sources-t...t-play-used-games-and-will-introduce-kinect-2
http://kotaku.com/the-next-xbox-will-require-an-internet-connection-to-st-470062456

Kotaku generally doesn't report on BS "rumors" unless there's enough evidence there. I've also read somewhere that a developer confirmed the "no used games" requirement, but I can't dig up the link at the moment.

Furthermore I don't expect Microsoft to admit anything, because they never "speculate on rumors".
 
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